The best MM phono stage I've ever heard ....

Glad it's worked out for you, Randy. And plus one for your final sentence.

Best, Chris

joerand posted:

that has me enjoying replay the way I did in my teens - simply for the love of music. Playing the same album over and over and pulling out anything in my library without fear for its mastering/recording quality.

Nailed it 

A rounder and probably thicker low end will drive me mad

There is something about having a high quality simple system. If Naim produced a super duper Nait I'm sure many would be interested. But they don't and expect many to migrate up the pre powers.

Could be proof that the Nait XS is a great all round amp, had that something that its bigger brother might of lacked with some set ups.

The little Totems must be lapping up all the oodles of quality juice.

Must be the rounded corners that are smoothing the old musical bumps. Always good to hear about finding a better sound which brings us closer to the music. Enjoy.

What are you using it with? I had a similar experience including Nait 5i/XS/Supernait/SN2 and ended up with the Exposure 3010s2d2 but retained the NDX which seems a good match. Ended up moving back to New Zealand from the UK so may have to check out Plinius too!

Different strokes for different folks, I am glad you're happy with the new equipment, my brother had Plinius equipment, I just didn't like the presentation.

If my own experience is anything to go by I would say that you will miss the Naim sound at some point, and probably be back as an owner again. 

TOBYJUG posted:

There is something about having a high quality simple system. If Naim produced a super duper Nait I'm sure many would be interested.

Ummmm, they do, it's called the SuperNait2!!!! And it does better some of their separates, so there!

Robiwan posted:

A rounder and probably thicker low end will drive me mad

Robin,

I'd have thought the same thing initially. After the first 10 seconds of listening to the Hautonga I thought the bass was going to be too big for me. After adjusting to the sound and playing a variety of music with varying recording qualities I discovered that the bass may have been part of what I was missing all along. Very quickly I was won over by the depth and detail of the phono stage, moved the speakers closer to the front wall to reduce the bass, and found myself getting lost in the music. I'm not suggesting anyone else would find the same, just that it works for me. Funny thing is, my wife thinks the two amps sound the same. She misses the look of the Naim boxes - not a fan of the Plinius industrial look.

Wazza69 posted:

What are you using it with? I had a similar experience including Nait 5i/XS/Supernait/SN2 and ended up with the Exposure 3010s2d2 but retained the NDX which seems a good match. Ended up moving back to New Zealand from the UK so may have to check out Plinius too!

Wazza,

I'm using a Rega RP6 with a vintage Grace F9-E cart and Soundsmith updated stylus. I have Chord Chameleon RCAs on the CD5X. Still running my NACA5. I demo'd the Exposure 3010s2 before buying the Plinius. The Exposure had the sweetest top end I've come across. Otherwise I preferred the increased speed and resolution of the Plinius. I'd say give them a try. Shouldn't be too difficult for you now. Cheers!

TOBYJUG

I bought the black one. I thought you asked earlier? I have cherry Isoblue so black is the best look with that. Plus I still have a couple of Naim black boxes to coordinate with. I like the Plinius look.

I never really understood Naim amps being called harsh, as they are anything but that.

Fair enough, the OP tried to make it work, and found something better to his ears. 

It's all about the music in the end.

analogmusic posted:

I never really understood Naim amps being called harsh, as they are anything but that.

Strictly my experience with the SN2. Never found the Nait 5 or Nait XS harsh or strident. If I were to stick with Naim amps I'd likely go back to the Nait XS or Nait XS-2. I doubt they'd provide enough transient attack and resolution for me now, and I'm resolved not to deal with PSUs and extraneous ICs and power cords. I'm a firm believer that the simplest approach is the best, hence I never delved into separates.

fair enough, as you said it's all about the musicality and what works for you.

"vive la difference", there are lots of good hi-fi companies in the world.

So far, the three amps I've read or heard being called 'the best integrated I've heard' or 'I know of' are the Plinius Hautonga, The Sonneteer Alabaster and Sam Tellig's long time preference, the LFD Zero mk IV.

I haven't heard any of the three, but my experience is that when an amp is praised on musical terms, it frequently has too warm bass, not enough edge on transients, cares too much for 3D and is too pleasing on the ears of the listener.

It is a perennially interesting fact for me, that some listeners who finally find something that seems to take the issue out of the 'hifi' territory and into the 'music' one, not often have a true idea of how music really sounds - that is, never smooth on the ears.

I have nothing at all against the Plinius, which looks beautiful, but I, as a habit, become diffident when I read of harsh CDs becoming listenable and so on. Bad sound is bad sound, sound quality is at the very beginning of all musical experience and nothing can edulcorate what is not palatable. But I sincerely wish Joe a true enjoyment of his new amp.

In my long life with Naim, I have sometimes, but not very often, experienced a true sensation of 'reality'; I still find Naim amps sporting traits I do not really like, but every time I have tried something else (a list as long as that of my sins) my idea has always been the same: most hifi is built for people who have money, do not know how music sounds and want their ears caressed. Not for me, sorry. Trumpets, violins, sopranos, loud reed or brass sections can be, and often are, piercing in a live concert, and they have to be in the living room.

But, sincerely, that Plinius looks gorgeous and I wish Joe the best with it. My Luxman L-590 AX II lasted 3 CDs, and had received raving reviews. But it must be me.

Max 

I think for me real music has a real "emotional" aspect to it, it speaks to the heart directly.

So for me, either hi-fi speaks to the heart or it doesn't.

What I did find though, is that the job of bringing emotion into the music isn't only the amplifier's job : it is a big responsibility of the source, (and also the speakers.)

Now rooms, cables, sources, speakers. amplifiers, taste, personal liking : you have a lot of variables here, and getting the whole thing to work is hugely personal, and subjective.

I don't buy into this philosophy : he/she will be back to Naim soon.... Is Naim the only amplifier in the world that one can like?

of course, no.

Max_B posted:

my experience is that when an amp is praised on musical terms, it frequently has too warm bass, not enough edge on transients, cares too much for 3D and is too pleasing on the ears of the listener.

It is a perennially interesting fact for me, that some listeners who finally find something that seems to take the issue out of the 'hifi' territory and into the 'music' one, not often have a true idea of how music really sounds

I sincerely wish Joe a true enjoyment of his new amp.

In my long life with Naim, I have sometimes, but not very often, experienced a true sensation of 'reality'

But, sincerely, that Plinius looks gorgeous and I wish Joe the best with it.

Max,

Thanks for your positive assents on my findings with my new amp and your well wishes. At the same time, I can't help but feel an air of condescension in your post. In response I'd ask some substantiation to your subjective remarks:

How is it that any happy listener can consider bass too warm, transients not edgy enough, cares too much for 3D, and foremost "too pleasing on the ears"? Really, too pleasing? Suggests that harsh musical replay should simply be endured as a fault of the recording rather than otherwise enjoyed on a more satisfying system. The notion here for me being that Naim gear gets one closer to what you call "reality", so just suffer along with crap recordings (despite their musical merits) or don't listen them.

As far as how music really sounds or a true sensation of reality - whose to say? Maybe the handful of musicians and engineers present at the recording session? Certainly not someone listening by replay on any level of hi-fi gear. If you somehow have the aspiration that Naim gear doesn't color replay I don't think you're being objective. It's a matter of degrees and maybe (as you suggest) I like more color in my replay.

I'm far more into the toe-tapping musicality. If the hi-fi "reality" works for you - great. I simply don't get how you can suggest to have a handle on musical reality via replay. And please explain what is a "perennially interesting fact"? 

What are the two gain settings on the phonostage, and which suits the Grace more?

C.

Interesting post since I'm thinking of upgrading from Niat XS to SN2 somewhere in the (hopefully not too distant) future. I have chosen to upgrade my source first going from CD5x to CDS3 and from a Project to a Clearaudio record player.

Listening to the CDS3 for a couple of days I must say the CD5x may have been a little rough around the edges , so I'm thinking maybe it also makes sense for you to think about upgrading your source component. 

I may have missed it in a previous post but what was the phonostage you were coming from? Stageline?

I was just curious what specific albums/cd's you played on the SN2 that didn't sound to your liking? And what was for instance the first album you played on your Plinius? First impressions.... 

Did you audition the SN2 before buying? Did you consider the Nait XS2 too? 

I hope you can answer some of my questions! Thanks in advance

Agree that changing up the CD5X to a higher level of source could of been the Panacea to the problems experienced by the OP with his SN2 and Hicap.

Though when I auditioned a SN2 with my ndac I was left feeling very impressed but still aware of a big serving of SN2ness that was all pervading regardless of recording quality. Far from true to the musical tone uniqueness which has been alluded too.

Christopher_M posted:

What are the two gain settings on the phonostage, and which suits the Grace more?

Chris,

You must have been doing some reading on the Hautonga . The adjustable gain is a somewhat deceptive feature in that the loading on the phono stage remains fixed at 47K, appropriate for MM and HOMC. Rather the adjustment is for the input sensitivity and after talking to the US Plinius distributor I believe he said it switches from 62 dB to 66 dB gain. Mine is set at the factory default. My Grace plays louder on the Plinius than it did on the SN2/Stageline. On the Plinius vinyl and CD play at the same relative volume. On my SN2 I had to crank the volume almost one hour to have vinyl at the same volume as CD.

That said, my Hautonga is s/h, a couple years old. I believe that Plinius has since modified newer models to switch to different loading on the phono stage so traditional output MCs are also an option. Perhaps that is what you saw?

Thanks. I just googled Plinius Hautonga to see what you had bought, and to see what reviewers thought of the phonostage. They liked it. They referred to HOMCs and MMs only.

Originally, I wrote ..  'and which suits your Grace?' I changed it because I thought it made you look like a high court judge or an archbishop.

C.

tef,

Loaded question! First off, I'd say yes, my new amp has done a job exposing my CD5X, especially relative to the new-found depth and detail I'm getting from the Hautonga's phono stage. Yes, this was relative to a SN2/Stageline. While I'm enjoying CD replay more now through the Hautonga, I am at the same time thinking I could use a better source on my digital side. I had the Hautonga in January which got me thinking about a move up to a CDX2 as I posted in this thread; HCDR on CD5X in February. The CDX2 is by most accounts a "rocker" which fits right into my musical wheelhouse. As you'll see in the link, my thought was to lose the 5X/HCDR combo and get better output from a bare CDX2.

Coincidentally, two nights ago I took the HCDR off my 5X and came away thinking that a $2600 PSU is not warranted in that scenario. I put a Powerline on the bare 5X and it's good, but not great or commensurate with my vinyl side.

As far as my history, there is a cryptic account in my profile. My first home demo of Naim gear was with a Nait 5si. Ended up buying the Nait XS, upgraded with two FCXSs, then moved to the bare SN2 for several years before trying a HCDR on the SN2 which I didn't care for. I did audition the SN2 (albeit not at home) before buying. Ultimately, I've concluded my ears and room simply aren't cut out for Naim amplification. I'm fine with Naim CDPs.

As for albums and first impressions? Sorry, but that's tough to list. I'm sure I reached for the LPs that sounded best on my SN2 and soon after began to find that everything just sounded better on the Hautonga. Like a kid in a candy shop, any vinyl I played seemed to please me, foremost for musicality.

Christopher_M posted:

Originally, I wrote ..  'and which suits your Grace?' I changed it because I thought it made you look like a high court judge or an archbishop.

For the record, I don't wear a wig or have a ring to kiss .

As it happens Chris, I made payment on a Hana SH for my RP6 (proceeds from my Naim sales). I thought my new phono stage deserved a better cart. No time to get into the dealer, but will provide my thoughts once it's installed. Time will tell whether the Hana is an upgrade to my stalwart, vintage Grace.

Cheers,

Randy

joerand posted:

Max_B posted:

my experience is that when an amp is praised on musical terms, it frequently has too warm bass, not enough edge on transients, cares too much for 3D and is too pleasing on the ears of the listener.

It is a perennially interesting fact for me, that some listeners who finally find something that seems to take the issue out of the 'hifi' territory and into the 'music' one, not often have a true idea of how music really sounds

I sincerely wish Joe a true enjoyment of his new amp.

In my long life with Naim, I have sometimes, but not very often, experienced a true sensation of 'reality'

But, sincerely, that Plinius looks gorgeous and I wish Joe the best with it.

Max,

Thanks for your positive assents on my findings with my new amp and your well wishes. At the same time, I can't help but feel an air of condescension in your post. In response I'd ask some substantiation to your subjective remarks:

How is it that any happy listener can consider bass too warm, transients not edgy enough, cares too much for 3D, and foremost "too pleasing on the ears"? Really, too pleasing? Suggests that harsh musical replay should simply be endured as a fault of the recording rather than otherwise enjoyed on a more satisfying system. The notion here for me being that Naim gear gets one closer to what you call "reality", so just suffer along with crap recordings (despite their musical merits) or don't listen them.

As far as how music really sounds or a true sensation of reality - whose to say? Maybe the handful of musicians and engineers present at the recording session? Certainly not someone listening by replay on any level of hi-fi gear. If you somehow have the aspiration that Naim gear doesn't color replay I don't think you're being objective. It's a matter of degrees and maybe (as you suggest) I like more color in my replay.

I'm far more into the toe-tapping musicality. If the hi-fi "reality" works for you - great. I simply don't get how you can suggest to have a handle on musical reality via replay. And please explain what is a "perennially interesting fact"? 

Joe,

perhaps you're right – I was being condescending. Please forget my remarks. These days I get tired easily, and another discussion between 'hifi' and 'real' music would probably give me the coup de grace. Last night I played a CD (Christopher Dell's arrangements of Bert Kaempfert's songs, ACT records), and it sounded like sh*t. Could I do something about it? No. Will your Plinius solve this kind of problems? I hope so.

Yes, I was condescending and it's not a nice thing, sorry. But I still don't believe in amps that magically restore the lost listenability. I've heard a lot, and found them a cheat – elegant, fashionable, heavy, expensive cheats. Sorry. Best, Max.