Kudos Super 20a in an Active System

Posted by: sunbeamgls on 30 March 2017

Finally, after about a year of trying to get this to happen, I had a chance to listen to Kudos Super 20a in my system last weekend.  Its a revelation of what these speakers are actually capable of.

System

 
Once we had a very satisfactory sounding system following quite a lot of set-up, we cracked on with listening to some tracks.  Along for the ride, friend R has been listening to these speakers for around 3 years now and has been through a good few system upgrades during that time, so he's very familiar with their capabilities.  It turns out, whilst they might be familiar, they haven't really reached their full potential in the  passive system.  What we heard in about 90 minutes of listening in the active system was a revelation.  These speakers, whilst not carrying the same weight and authority as the PMC 20.26s (which have a somewhat larger visual and physical presence in the room), they're no longer out of their depth in my room.  They go astoundingly deep from such a small box, with plenty of drive and give a bass line that, had we not already heard the PMCs, would be thought of as very good indeed - add in their relatively small dimensions and that makes them quite remarkable in this area.  Tunes that needed to boogie along did so, attack is good as is the timing of the tune.
What about detail? Well, its astounding - these speakers really can resolve tiny tiny details that is beyond the capabilities of the PMCs and significantly beyond how they sound at home in the passive system. Both acoustic guitar tracks (Lofgren and Chris Jones) deliver string sounds that are crisp, clear and easy to pick out - delivering initial attack in spades and long long decays into the background. Spitty anger in Mary Gauthier's voice make you feel a bit uncomfortable and pleased that you're not the subject of her aggression. Vocals are superb - a good bit more texture, inflexion and intent than with the PMCs.  Imaging is spot on too - rock solid, easy to place, 3 dimensional and a little unsettling on those tracks (such as Ficci) that use processing to give a wrap-around effect in the room.
Is there a downside? Well, its difficult to find anything to fault but I would prefer a little more subtlety in treble leading edges - R found it just to his taste, for me its still a bit sharp.
 
But here's the thing - throughout, we could both follow tunes and feet were tapping - and I mean throughout. On top of that, R kept giving little involuntary smiles and shaking his head in disbelief.  These speakers are very much more capable than either of us really knew and active amplification has brought that out from under the covers of passive operation.  Let's hope there'll be a SNAXO soon to at least bring some of this benefit (or possibly more of course).
 
I'll leave it with some of R's words - stunning, outstanding, and several more that I won't repeat in a public forum.
Posted on: 05 April 2017 by Dave J
Foot tapper posted:

In traditional SNAXO crossovers, the main circuit board (PCB) is mounted firmly on to the inner tray of the case via screws and spacers.

In the BMR SNAXO (aka the floaty SNAXO), as developed for the active Ovator 800 and 600 speakers, the PCB is mounted on a heavy brass plate, in the same way the the PCB is mounted in the Naim Superline phono stage.  The brass plate is then mounted in the case on suspension springs.  Hence, the floaty SNAXO is so called because the PCB does indeed float inside the outer case on its own suspension.

Hope this helps, FT

What were the sonic differences between the two? Anyone have any experience?

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by sunbeamgls
Allante93 posted:

 remember it's really all about the speakers phase  distortion.

Over and out!

Allante93!

What do you mean by this in the context of a Naim active system please?

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by sunbeamgls
Dave J posted:
Foot tapper posted:

In traditional SNAXO crossovers, the main circuit board (PCB) is mounted firmly on to the inner tray of the case via screws and spacers.

In the BMR SNAXO (aka the floaty SNAXO), as developed for the active Ovator 800 and 600 speakers, the PCB is mounted on a heavy brass plate, in the same way the the PCB is mounted in the Naim Superline phono stage.  The brass plate is then mounted in the case on suspension springs.  Hence, the floaty SNAXO is so called because the PCB does indeed float inside the outer case on its own suspension.

Hope this helps, FT

What were the sonic differences between the two? Anyone have any experience?

Given the SNAXO is speaker specific, its probably not possible to compare because the SNAXO for a particular speaker will be floaty or not floaty by design, rather than having the choice.

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by tonym
sunbeamgls posted:
Dave J posted:
Foot tapper posted:

In traditional SNAXO crossovers, the main circuit board (PCB) is mounted firmly on to the inner tray of the case via screws and spacers.

In the BMR SNAXO (aka the floaty SNAXO), as developed for the active Ovator 800 and 600 speakers, the PCB is mounted on a heavy brass plate, in the same way the the PCB is mounted in the Naim Superline phono stage.  The brass plate is then mounted in the case on suspension springs.  Hence, the floaty SNAXO is so called because the PCB does indeed float inside the outer case on its own suspension.

Hope this helps, FT

What were the sonic differences between the two? Anyone have any experience?

Given the SNAXO is speaker specific, its probably not possible to compare because the SNAXO for a particular speaker will be floaty or not floaty by design, rather than having the choice.

Darke Bear of this forum went from non-floaty to floaty on his Ovator 600s. 

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by Allante93
sunbeamgls posted:
Dave J posted:
Foot tapper posted:

In traditional SNAXO crossovers, the main circuit board (PCB) is mounted firmly on to the inner tray of the case via screws and spacers.

In the BMR SNAXO (aka the floaty SNAXO), as developed for the active Ovator 800 and 600 speakers, the PCB is mounted on a heavy brass plate, in the same way the the PCB is mounted in the Naim Superline phono stage.  The brass plate is then mounted in the case on suspension springs.  Hence, the floaty SNAXO is so called because the PCB does indeed float inside the outer case on its own suspension.

Hope this helps, FT

What were the sonic differences between the two? Anyone have any experience?

Given the SNAXO isspeaker specific, its probably not possible to compare because the SNAXO for a particular speaker will be floaty or not floaty by design, rather than having the choice.Bingo!

Allante93 posted:
"remember it's really all about the speakers phase distortion."

Sunbeamgls posted:

"What do you mean by this in the context of a Naim active system please?"

Most Active Fans and Some Speaker Designers believe that by taking the Passive crossover out of the equation, and implementing an Active crossover not contained within the Speakers Cabinet is the purist route to Hi Fi Utopia.

However in todays market, its just not practical.  Hence, Naim has ceased making Speakers, and Focal realizes that theres just not a market for building a speaker that can be utilized both in Active or Passive mode, less known Active mode only.

Now on the Other hand, Kudos is a Speaker Manufacture that is trying to tap into the Naim Market.

Titans 808, 707, Super 20s, etc... so they don't mind working with Linn's Exakt Technologies, or Naim's Snaxo's Technologies.

Why, they are trying to Sell Speakers.

Now Focal/Naim, Yes they want to Sell Speakers also, but the Passive Speakers that are voiced to match Naim! 

Now for all you Naim Active Fans out there, take your pick: 

IBL's NBL's, SBL's SL2's, DBL's, Ovators, Briks, and the New Kid on the Block, Kudos!! 

That's all! 

Well, that's just my take!

Allante93!

 

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by Allante93

Lawrence Dickie Founder and Speaker Designer of Vivid Speakers.  

David Machael Audio

555PS DR x 2 / NDS / S1 Pre / S1 Mono Blocks
Full Loom / Powerlines / Vivid GTA 3

Nice Speaker checked it out January of 2016, I Think! 

 "I have always been a keen advocate of the active approach to loudspeaker design, believing that the direct connection between amplifier and voice coil offers the purest route and that the precision and linearity of active electronics give a clear advantage over passive alternatives. However for pragmatic reasons we felt it unwise to go to market with only active speakers. An important part of the design phase of the first Vivid Audio products was a re-evaluation of passive crossover design. It has to be said that the use of computer-aided circuit analysis has really changed the game. The accuracy possible to meet target responses while presenting a safe load is quite remarkable. This coupled with drivers which present constant impedances across a wide range of drive levels, non-polar film dielectric capacitors and air-cored inductors has permitted us to create passive designs which really challenge the active alternatives.”

Allante93!

Posted on: 05 April 2017 by Allante93
jon honeyball posted:

I understand that on the Kudos speakers you can use the 3 way snaxo on the 2 way and 3 way speakers, because the "midrange" section has no lower frequency filtering, other than normal acoustic/mechanical roll-off. So on a 3 way you connect to the treble and midrange outputs, and on a 3 way you use all three. 

Dibbles Anyone! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFzMuO3K3ZY

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by Claus-Thoegersen

You need to add Audiovector all sr3 and sr6 models to the list of active options.

Claus

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by sunbeamgls
Claus-Thoegersen posted:

You need to add Audiovector all sr3 and sr6 models to the list of active options.

Claus

Rather than bury this here, perhaps you could start a thread along the lines of "Please Naim, Make A SNAXO for..."

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by jfritzen

I think Claus is saying that there is already a SNAXO for Audiovector.

A problem seems to be that there is no list on Naim's web site that shows all the supported speakers for the SNAXO. Perhaps there are some more that we don't know about.

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by Allante93
jfritzen posted:

I think Claus is saying that there is already a SNAXO for Audiovector.

A problem seems to be that there is no list on Naim's web site that shows all the supported speakers for the SNAXO. Perhaps there are some more that we don't know about.

All Forum members who are running Active Speakers with Naim's Snaxo, Please add to the List. 

This is my list, please correct any errors:

IBL's NBL's, SBL's SL2's, DBL's, Ovators, Briks, and the New Kid on the Block, Kudos!! 

Allante93! 

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by tonym
Allante93 posted:

 

This is my list, please correct any errors:

IBL's NBL's, SBL's SL2's, DBL's, Ovators, Briks, and the New Kid on the Block, Kudos!! 

Allante93! 

IBLs, NBLs, SBLs, SL2s, DBLs. There, corrected for you.

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by Christopher_M

Tony, Did the move to Bristol go ok?

Best, Chris

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by jfritzen

+ Credos, Allaes

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by nigelb

+ Intros (well with an ixo crossover anyway).

Posted on: 06 April 2017 by Allante93

Naim 

Credos

Allaes

IBLs

NBLs

SBLs

Dibbles

Ovators 800/600

Linn

Briks

Kudos have already reached out to Linn/Exakt = Titans 808s, 707s, Super 20s, etc......

Soon to come to the House of Naim/Snaxo 

Come on Forum, That's it!

Remember Active Systems with Naim's Snaxo!  

 

Posted on: 07 April 2017 by sunbeamgls
Allante93 posted:

Naim 

Credos

Allaes

IBLs

NBLs

SBLs

Dibbles

Ovators 800/600

Linn

Briks

Kudos have already reached out to Linn/Exakt = Titans 808s, 707s, Super 20s, etc......

Soon to come to the House of Naim/Snaxo 

Come on Forum, That's it!

Remember Active Systems with Naim's Snaxo!  

 

Allante93, this post might help your list, but I'm not sure if the products listed were "official" or not:

 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ith-no-naim-speakers

Posted on: 07 April 2017 by jon h

snaxo should be viewed as a *platform* not a *product*. You need the right one (2 or 3 way) with the right filters (dependent on intended speaker)