Bass - how much is too much?

I think you very often will see that quality of the recording and especially room acoustics will play a major role. Also high end system are affected by these effects. 

Recording quality has to be a big factor.

In our lounge, it’s rear facing ports we need to avoid. Much can be achieved by speaker positioning. Even a small difference in placement can have a significant effect. It’s taken many years, and altering one thing in the system can alter everything else. After being used it a somewhat bass light system for the best part of 20 years, the addition of an XPS2 onto a CDX2 instantly gave us more bass than the room knew what to do with.

Except for DR and cables, our speakers were the last thing to get upgraded. And hopefully the last. It took us a year to hit on the right speakers for the room and the system. Now we can hear badly recorded bass for what it is, as opposed to being swamped in it.

Against expectations, the biggest pair of speakers we tried, shifting the largest air volume, gave us the most tightly controlled bass in our room. The ports fire downwards.

Before you really do something, you can experiment with cardboardboxes (the large ones for moving - just stack a few of them in the corner), pillows and blankets to see if you can influence the balance.

Costs nothing and then you know a solution direction.

In my view, with a 152/155 and Motive 2s, the speakers are the last thing you should be thinking of changing. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

In my view, with a 152/155 and Motive 2s, the speakers are the last thing you should be thinking of changing. 

I take your point HH. I have tried SN2 and 202/200 but can't seem to tame the upper frequencies with amp changes so far. This seems to be my major issue so I guess this leaves room treatments or speaker change. 

They are a bit coloured and splashy, but in my lounge, both your pre and power were right little belters. So much fun and verve. I prefer them to the 202/200 in many respects, not least value for money.

If you get prominence of the same frequencies with both the Scansonic mb1s and the Neat Motive 2s, then those frequencies are almost certainly the fundamental resonant frequencies of your room.  Occasionally this can be rectified by moving the speakers, but usually fixing this requires the installation of bass traps.

How much bass is too much is a matter of personal preference. I like it so the bass sounds like it does at a good live venue - but than what that means is subjective, as the same performers/music can sound different in different venues, and it is only my judgement of 'good'. But I like the feel of bass, and eally miss it when it is in any way curtailed, as happens with so many speakers. Some people simply don't seem to like bass, while others claim bass is deep even with speakers incapable of reproducing the bottom couple of octaves. The difficulty is getting well extended bass that is also well controlled and not boomy or 'loose', and that depends on the room as well as the speakers, and indeed the amp controlling the speakers.

It is normal for bass to be louder in the corners of a room, and also for there to be nodes and antinodes, where bass is accentuated and cancelled, so positioning of speakers and listening position can be critical. If boom is a problem then it could be decay time in the room, which can be controlled to some extent by the use of 'bass traps', but playing with positioning is always prefereable first. There is some free software called REW (room equalisation wizard), which with the cost of just a measuring microphone can be used to assist room placement and also see just what is happening - whether the bass response is reasonably flat and extended, or is curtailed, or has significant peaks and troughs at the listening position. It will also show decay times, and so help indicate what room treatment might be able to assist with if the speakers/amp combination is known to be capable of well-controleed bass.

stuart posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

In my view, with a 152/155 and Motive 2s, the speakers are the last thing you should be thinking of changing. 

I take your point HH. I have tried SN2 and 202/200 but can't seem to tame the upper frequencies with amp changes so far. This seems to be my major issue so I guess this leaves room treatments or speaker change. 

For craps and giggles, have you tried a flatcap xs and using both outputs on the 152xs (upgrade 1 and 2)? It turns it into a stonking preamp. 

when the doors to the shower room upstairs vibrate

Hi Stuart, how much bass? Well it is the right amount for the recording to sound natural or balanced or simply user preference. However boomyness is something different.. that implies you have room resonances that are distorting the frequency response...now it might be your bass levels are  overly exciting your room resonances. Therefore it might be a case of moving speakers around to remove or reduce those resonances or using some kind of room treatment. In my experience one can still have too much bass without any boom or obvious resonances at all, but after a while can get too tiring.

if this bass is fast and articulated, then it is fun to listen

bass articulation and speed is what counts. 

Too much bass? oh well go to any new cinema, plenty of bass there, but it is seemingly under control.

concerts too, huge amount bass, but sounds good and fun.

Analogmusic

Totally agree with your comments.

For me a good bass line with texture of notes and transient slam is highly addictive.

But I suppose most speakers roll off at certain frequencies so we don't get the final notes.I use Quad 2805 electrostatics and am in that camp.Have a old pair of floorstanders Focal Profil 77 and always enjoy their bass.

As you say in  Cinemas it's out of control

I read the phrase 'chesty sound' somewhere. Thats what I imagine as being a full - maybe too much bass - but still well-defined and in control.

In my own experience, this has also to do with the materials used in the room. Solid floor is more likely to have a non-booming bass than e.g. wooden floors.

If the OP has wooden floors, it might be an idea to try to place the speakers on some stone / concreet floor tiles.

For me it's about getting the 'cleanest' bass response in my room and because recording qualities and compression varies so much between albums it's a matter of striking a balance - there is no steadfast level that will yield the 'optimal' bass response in a given room over a variety of recordings. Work with bass treatment in your room and vary speaker and listening position to minimize nodes. Eliminating overhanging bass will help to clarify higher frequencies and make the rest of the music more cohesive.

Sx1 are full range speakers and won't hold back on bass. Can you tell us a little about your room? Size? Do you have floorboards or concrete floor? Any solid walls? A good place to start with speaker positioning is at least 2ft from side and back walls. Your listening position should ideally also be 2ft from side and back walls. The corners and room boundaries are high pressure areas.

In my experience (I learned the hard way) it's nigh impossible to treat deep bass below 100hz in a domestic environment. The best place to start is matching speaker to room.

There is an easy test you can try - play back test tones from 30hz to 100hz in 5hz increments and listen if any one frequency tone sounds much much louder than the other. Perhaps it sounds really loud in the corners of the room and room boundaries yet quiet in the centre of the room. This would suggest bass waves are hanging around the room too long and unable to absorb or escape the room and therefore combine and increase in amplitude (loudness).

+ you can find these testtones on Spotify ...

If bass dominates your sound it is too much, but some people like that.  Poorly recorded bass.  Hmmm, I think many blame the recording when it's the system, unless you listen to hip hop and modern R & B 

London Grammar seem to be flavour of the month in demos.  1 guy who knew how to set up a system got clean, tight authority with this album, another system with similar large speakers ( both Martin Logan's ) got rolling muddy bass.  The former had bass traps and a PS 10 power regenerator, the later did not. 

I have bass traps and a Naim DAC /xps dr.  I am in the former camp with quality bass.  Bass is definitely one of the harder things to get right and it's a function of everything in the chain. Took me ages to get what I have now, although I started with weak and poorly timed bass.  Now it's pretty much spot one given my room constraints.

stuart posted:

There is one small fly in the ointment. I have been listening particularly for the upper frequencies and focusing my attention to that. HH drew my attention to the problems he had with untamed bass with his original motive 1s. I now can't stop listening to the bass frequencies!! 

Stuart 

Wouldn't it be better if you stopped listening to HH?

;-)

Thanks for the replies 

Seems like a common problem. To answer a few questions. I added fcsx about 5 years ago and it does make a big improvement as did the dac. A well balanced system in my view but just can't seem to get speaker / room quite right. 

I moved house last year and installed system in November and have been tinkering about to try and get things right since then. 

Walls are solid, floor is concrete with thick underlay and carpet. I have last week placed speakers on granite slabs which has improved imaging considerably and maybe a tad of bass control. Tried foam bungs in base ports and subtle changes. 

Room is 16' long with speakers on this wall. Currently 35cm from back wall. Can't really bring them out much further. Left speaker is about 5 feet from side wall right speaker about 3.5 feet from side wall. Ceiling is standard height just over 7 feet. 

The room is 12 feet at its widest then steps in to 10 feet at the mid point between the speakers and to the right- not ideal. My listening position varies from off center to the left on sofa or central on a small chair. 

The bass is most prominent to the right in the narrow end. I think my listening position is in a nullish area so it never gets too bad. I can't move speakers to the left as there is a central fireplace. Firing motive 2s down room seemed to increase high frequencies too much maybe due to reflections. 

I will draw a diagram when I get time and post a pic. I am tempted to purchase a couple of medium sized bass traps and experiment with positioning. 

Thanks again. 

If I understand correctly you seem to have uneven reverbations of bass frequencies (bulk of bass guitar is around 28Hz to 300 Hz, the attack is around 2.5 kHz).  Booming bass notes typically reside around open A string frequency - 55 Hz).

I would encourage experimenting with speaker positions before anything else, especially before you purchase bass traps.

Adam

My own view is that bass performance is very tricky in the home environment. It is very easy to end up with a speaker too big for the room.... if you are happy with 70% that's a start.... the others try listening at lower volume levels.... The other thing is try and stop focusing on frequency performance ... and try and just enjoy the overall .... sonic picture. Remember ... before changing anything try improving your power supply....this does make a big difference. 

I'm a little confused with regard to speaker and listening positions so a picture would speak a thousands words. 35cm from back wall is not ideal for down firing full range speakers. try 2ft just as a test to discover if there is any improvement. Solid brick walls and concrete floor mean bass waves are unlikely to get absorbed easily. Carpet and thick underlay will help a little. No need for granite if you have concrete floor, speaker spikes through carpet and underlay resting on concrete would be ideal.

How far is your listening position from the back and side walls?

Bass is greatest at the narrow end probably as that is where the bass waves are reflecting, meeting up/mixing most and increasing in amplitude. Solid brick walls in this area will not help.

If possible, the speakers are likely to be best firing down the longest length of the room. High/mid frequency reflections can easily be treated using thin room friendly acoustic panels, such as Gik Acoustic 242 panels, on the side walls (first reflection points) and behind listening position. You can also install art/photo acoustic panels to fit in with a domestic room.

Bass traps, such as GIK Acoustics Tri-Traps, in the corners of the room will help a little with bass boom but will have almost no effect on low bass (sub 60hz). If, like I have, your problem is below 60hz and you have exhausted speaker and listening positioning, then you have three options:

1. Mega bass trapping, such as RPG modex plates (type 2) - you'll probably need at least 4 of these, each weighing 40-50KG, delivered by pallet, hung onto walls where pressure points are highest. This is a mammoth task with no guarantees of success. It will also spoil the look of the room. 8 x GIK Soffits with range limiters in corners might also do the trick, again no guarantees of success and will spoil the room look.

2. Use eq to cut bass. Digital audio will no longer be bit-perfect. Loss in sound quality/transparency.

3. Downsize speakers to reduce bass energy.

I settled on option 3 (went from SCM40A to SCM19A) in combination with two stacked GIK Acoustics Tri-Traps in each corner behind speakers and Gik Acoustic 242 panels on side walls (first reflection points) and behind listening position.

Hope this helps! You can learn from others experiences/mistakes.

stuart posted:

.... I added fcsx about 5 years ago and it does make a big improvement.....

Where do the two outputs go?

C.

Stuart,

How committed are you to getting this sorted?

If you are prepared to put in some effort and some expense, put some largeish (and possibly expensive) fittings into the room, and perhaps change your speakers, this can be sorted.

In my case I have a room 3.6m x 4.25m that's +/-4dB (1/12th octave) throughout the bass frequency response region, from 15Hz to 500Hz and with good impulse response, so it can be done.