What is the fixation with Foot Tapping?

Monster posted:

There's something wrong if Oliver Nelson doesn't get your toe tapping. There is also something wrong if you are toe tapping to Nessus Dorma.

BB

Monster, you are not related to the Loch Ness monster are you, hence the typo? 

None shall sleep tonight until we get the answer.

nigelb posted:

Monster posted:

There's something wrong if Oliver Nelson doesn't get your toe tapping. There is also something wrong if you are toe tapping to Nessus Dorma.

BB

Monster, you are not related to the Loch Ness monster are you, hence the typo? 

None shall sleep tonight until we get the answer.

Oops. Trying to type on my iPad while I ride my unicycle. No relation to Nessy AFAIK.

Try to play Michael Jackson's "who is it".

It is a very rhythmic and enjoyable track.

If you ever get the chance, you should hear this track on a Naim amp

You will understand all this fuss with Naim 

Resistance is futile....

I recall being at a hifi show a number of years ago where in one room they were running A-B demos of different mains distribution blocks. When demonstrating the competitor's product the salesman stood to the side, still as a statue. But when they switched to their own 'improved' product, his foot was tapping away like a piston.  Only it was not in time with the music!

Sadly foot tapping as a sales tool - transparently crass though it may be - is quite common.....

Clive B posted:

I recall being at a hifi show a number of years ago where in one room they were running A-B demos of different mains distribution blocks. When demonstrating the competitor's product the salesman stood to the side, still as a statue. But when they switched to their own 'improved' product, his foot was tapping away like a piston.  Only it was not in time with the music!

I think its roots go back to the 1980's.I remember my Linn dealer telling me that their Linn rep told them that when they where doing dems of the LP12 .When sitting next to the prospective buyer to start the foot tapping.

Last year I went to a Naim Statement promotion event.Doug Graham had a streaming tablet in his hand and as soon as the music started I watched as he started moving his head in some kind of trance.I also noticed that the Naim owners from what I could tell threw chat before it started where foot tapping.Brought a smile to my face.

I think it's the amount of transient slam in the bass that Naim amps exceed in and produce the foot tapping

Innocent Bystander posted:

Rui Marques posted:

Foot tapping, nooding the head, singing along ....all good indications that the system is playing music in an enjoyable way.

Better have it than .... not.

But that ignores the fact that people sing along to music played on the crudest of equipment, and least when the music is very rhythmic it is not uncommon to see them moving extremities of their bodies, at least when loud, so is rather meaningless. The only explanation yet as to why foot tapping is seen as desirable (when listening, as opposed to playing music) is Foot Tapper's suggestion that it is because it indicates that the music is invoking an emotional response. But as he noted, that does not necessarily lead to foot tapping, and as I have observed, foot tapping as a response to the music can happen whatever it is played on.

It seems as if saying the system or component led to foot tapping after an upgrade is either a meaningless statement, or the system or the upgraded component is emphasising the rhythmic trigger in the music that causes involuntary foot tapping, even if it might not have been anywhere near as prominent in the music as recorded, thereby losing fidelity by distorting the sound (referencing here the fact that that live music does not always trigger foot tapping).

Yes, it is true that one can sing along in modest equipment. I do it...

I don't think that one starts foot tapping because of an upgrade, at least in the Naim World. It should happen at all "levels".

But the setup, specially speaker positioning, can have a dramatic effect ... hi-fi setup, due to bad room acoustics, can be a nightmare!

nigelb posted:

If I may borrow from FT's eloquent appraisal (and why wouldn't the master know about his namesake), any involuntary response to music (foot tapping, head banging, singing) is surely a manifestation of one's engagement to a particular tune or artist. There are a couple of levels of such engagement, if I might explore the phenomenon of foot-tapping a little further and with the risk of sounding pompous.

There is the immediate response to a familiar piece of music that elicits some reaction that is more in recognition of something familiar that has possibly some special meaning to the listener. If listening in a group this can also be a kind of 'tribal' response with the possible aim of getting others to respond in similar way - think of chanting at a football game. If listening alone, this primeval level of response can be a reaction to a piece of music that produces a particular memory of (better?) times. The level of response I am talking about here does not require posh hifi, just a choon that is instantly recognisable and means something to the listener.

The next level of listener response is generated because a particular piece of music is produced in such a way that it causes an almost involuntary reaction in the listener. This is much more about the PRaT content in a piece of music and the ability of hifi to faithfully reproduce said PRaT. To experience this kind of response takes considerable expenditure on hifi, much cable dressing, much room treatment and possibly living on one's own due to the obsessional behaviour required to achieve this level of music-listening Nirvana. OK that last statement might be a little over the top (ooh Statement, there's a thought), but this level of foot-tapping takes a well sorted system and the system that has always been able to do this to me has a special Naim.

Night, night.

Thanks for the considered and measured response - nearly got my foot tapping...

So, exploring that second level, I understand the concept where it is ensuring that what is in the original music is conveyed to the listener undiminished, so that the listener hears and responds to it, and IF that inevitably induces toe tapping then toe tapping might be proof of it getting through.

However, what if the original music doesn't trigger foot tapping? Of course, much of the time we don't hear the original music, but let's say it was a recording of an acoustic performance that the listener attended, and it didn't induce toe tapping although was thoroughly enjoyable - is it desirable for the replay system to emphasise the PRAT cues to the extent that the sound then heard at home, at a similar sound level to the original performance, does induce toe-tapping? Or consider someone who hears a live rock band seated in the auditorium, where the induced foot tapping might be due primarily to the sound level driving the beat into the audience rather than the ability of the utilitarian PA amps, speakers and cables to convey the PRAT: any half-decent home replay system playing the same music at similar levels is likely to induce the same toe-tapping for the same reason - if the foot ceases to tap when played at much lower levels, is it be desirable for that not to be the case and foot-tapping continue, maybe by emphasising the PRAT cues? Part-answering these myself, I suppose from one angle it depends on whether the listener feels that music without toe-tapping isn't as good and would have liked the original performance to have had that effect.  (Hence my questioning of foot tapping as a fixation.)

Didn't foot tapping used to be a form of impatience?

Of course foot stamping can be much more satisfying, but that's Balkan folk music and first nation dancing, I suppose....

analogmusic posted:

Try to play Michael Jackson's "who is it".

It is a very rhythmic and enjoyable track.

If you ever get the chance, you should hear this track on a Naim amp

You will understand all this fuss with Naim;

Resistance is futile....

With very few exceptions I'm unlikely to enjoy MJ played through anything except 100% sound absorbing materials...(!)

There is plenty of rhythmic music that I do enjoy, and sometimes I will tap my feet -but tapping my feet doesn't mean I enjoy it more, and that applies equally to live music as listening at home.  What I'm trying to understand is why I might want my feet to tap, as I feel no urges, and nothing missing from my musical experience when they don't compared to when they do. 

Interesting additional observation, I don't think it is by any means always the same music ir part of the music that I will tap to, even listening on the same system at similar volume levels.

Michael_B. posted:

Didn't foot tapping used to be a form of impatience?

 

Of course foot stamping can be much more satisfying, but that's Balkan folk music and first nation dancing, I suppose....

As children, we were taught to sit still. But that was mealtimes and when we had visitors, and at school, and I don't recall it relating to music. 

Innocent Bystander posted:

nigelb posted:

If I may borrow from FT's eloquent appraisal (and why wouldn't the master know about his namesake), any involuntary response to music (foot tapping, head banging, singing) is surely a manifestation of one's engagement to a particular tune or artist. There are a couple of levels of such engagement, if I might explore the phenomenon of foot-tapping a little further and with the risk of sounding pompous.

There is the immediate response to a familiar piece of music that elicits some reaction that is more in recognition of something familiar that has possibly some special meaning to the listener. If listening in a group this can also be a kind of 'tribal' response with the possible aim of getting others to respond in similar way - think of chanting at a football game. If listening alone, this primeval level of response can be a reaction to a piece of music that produces a particular memory of (better?) times. The level of response I am talking about here does not require posh hifi, just a choon that is instantly recognisable and means something to the listener.

The next level of listener response is generated because a particular piece of music is produced in such a way that it causes an almost involuntary reaction in the listener. This is much more about the PRaT content in a piece of music and the ability of hifi to faithfully reproduce said PRaT. To experience this kind of response takes considerable expenditure on hifi, much cable dressing, much room treatment and possibly living on one's own due to the obsessional behaviour required to achieve this level of music-listening Nirvana. OK that last statement might be a little over the top (ooh Statement, there's a thought), but this level of foot-tapping takes a well sorted system and the system that has always been able to do this to me has a special Naim.

Night, night.

Thanks for the considered and measured response - nearly got my foot tapping...

So, exploring that second level, I understand the concept where it is ensuring that what is in the original music is conveyed to the listener undiminished, so that the listener hears and responds to it, and IF that inevitably induces toe tapping then toe tapping might be proof of it getting through.

However, what if the original music doesn't trigger foot tapping? Of course, much of the time we don't hear the original music, but let's say it was a recording of an acoustic performance that the listener attended, and it didn't induce toe tapping although was thoroughly enjoyable - is it desirable for the replay system to emphasise the PRAT cues to the extent that the sound then heard at home, at a similar sound level to the original performance, does induce toe-tapping? Or consider someone who hears a live rock band seated in the auditorium, where the induced foot tapping might be due primarily to the sound level driving the beat into the audience rather than the ability of the utilitarian PA amps, speakers and cables to convey the PRAT: any half-decent home replay system playing the same music at similar levels is likely to induce the same toe-tapping for the same reason - if the foot ceases to tap when played at much lower levels, is it be desirable for that not to be the case and foot-tapping continue, maybe by emphasising the PRAT cues? Part-answering these myself, I suppose from one angle it depends on whether the listener feels that music without toe-tapping isn't as good and would have liked the original performance to have had that effect.  (Hence my questioning of foot tapping as a fixation.)

Wow, I never realised the subject of foot tapping could get so deep, but I am happy to play along.

I am not entirely convinced that any system is capable of exaggerating PRaT to the extent that home replay induces foot tapping (ft) where live audition of the same music by the same artists did not. My belief is that HiFi can downplay or lose PRaT. This is something that Naim gear does not do and PRaT seems to be a fundamental part of the Naim DNA, occasionally at the expense of other attributes such as imaging and detail for example. PRaT is so fundamental to my enjoyment of music that I am prepared to forgo the occasional loss in those other attributes. But PRaT is not necessarily a fundamental component of all musical pieces, and not every experience of PRaT when listening at home (or live for that matter) induces ft. No, ft it seems to me is induced by a number of experiences and feelings from the listener's perspective. PRaT, memories/nostagia, empathy for an artist, recognition of a feeling being expressed in the music, the current mood of the listener and more all conspire to induce or inhibit ft IMHO.

One thing for me that does not seem to affect the inclination to ft is sheer volume, even if the the music has a certain degree of PRaT on display. Indeed for me there is an optimal volume level at which ft is induced. Too loud and a feeling of oppression seems to supress ft, too soft and PRaT and the 'message' is lost. The exception to this rule is when the listener (by that I mean me) has had a modicum of alcohol when the wick will often get turned up.

One major contributor to the inclination to ft that has not been specifically mentioned yet is the skill and ability of the musicians and vocalists being listened too. It takes great skill for a number of artists playing together to 'get it spot on' for want of a better description. And when this happens it is likely to induce ft and smiles in the listener.

nigelb posted:

One major contributor to the inclination to ft that has not been specifically mentioned yet is the skill and ability of the musicians and vocalists being listened too. It takes great skill for a number of artists playing together to 'get it spot on' for want of a better description. And when this happens it is likely to induce ft and smiles in the listener.

Thanks again nigelb for another comprehensive response - much appreciated.

I think my only observation is re the last point, that in me it elicits appreciation, which can certainly include smiles with all music, and sometimes marking time whether with head, foot or hand (no other body parts), but I find the same live as recorded, except that live has the visual stimulus and live atmosphere as well, so everything even more so with a good performance. 

But then, I'm not one to follow generally the crowd live, clapping in time very rarely, never chanting etc, so perhaps I'm just too reserved a person...

Perhaps you are just not particularly attuned to rhythm. If it is not important to you it will not matter. I think you do not have a naim amp, so perhaps it is not so surprising. (I don't have a naim amp either btw, but I love getting up to dance!).

We have Ivor T and Linn to blame to a large extent as it is a not so subtle part of the Linn tune dem process. I actually find it quite useful however. If I notice my feet on the move I interpret that as being a good thing!

With a few glasses of Merlot and an empty house my head joins in for good measure! That is why I own a good system, at least it is IMHO.

Stu

I now have visions of dealers demonstrating systems sitting or standing there as rigid as possible when playing non-Linn or non-Naim gear, no matter how rhythmic the music and how much they might like to succumb to the beat, then on swirching over instantly starting tapping, maybe even before the first track has started, with the depth and speed of the tap proportinal to the cost of the equipment, all programmed into them in advance. They must go to very interesting conditioning camps (training courses)...  Poor guys/gals - they must have paramedics on hand before daring to demonstrate fully loaded LP12  plus NDS into Statement!

I'm sure it is not like that in reality.

Sadly on occasion it has been exactly like that. I have even wondered whether they have bitten by spiders....

Well in that case, for a Statement demo I think we should all expect  the dealer to do a full on air guitar finishing with a knee slide across the dem room carpet.

What?!! No pirouette?

That's the least we should expect!

Surely they'd bring Michael Flatley in for the full Riverdance.

Adam Zielinski posted:

I tend foot-tap when I play bass - helps me to keep the timing - a sort of inner click / metronome.

So for me foot-tapping is a necessity 

I played in brass bands when I was a youngster; if you tapped your foot to keep time the bandmaster would come over and stamp on your foot with his size 10's

Here's a concern - when solving any design problems there are things you optimize.

if we optimize for foot tapping, I wonder - at what cost?

heard the ovators 400s the other day at the dealers. Toe Tapping madness. ALmost like the bass track was sent to a different driver and increased in volume a little.

winder if the rest of the stuff was a little more monoton as a result?

soeake s not broken in yet / so will pop back in when I gave a chance. Probably the last two ovators  in the USA.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I now have visions of dealers demonstrating systems sitting or standing there as rigid as possible when playing non-Linn or non-Naim gear, no matter how rhythmic the music and how much they might like to succumb to the beat, then on swirching over instantly starting tapping, maybe even before the first track has started, with the depth and speed of the tap proportinal to the cost of the equipment, all programmed into them in advance. They must go to very interesting conditioning camps (training courses)...  Poor guys/gals - they must have paramedics on hand before daring to demonstrate fully loaded LP12  plus NDS into Statement!

I'm sure it is not like that in reality.

 

No it isn't at all. I've never seen any Naim dealer trying to push the kit on to a customer. It really isn't required.

When I first heard a Naim, it was set up properly at a dealer, and it was very apparent that it was unlike anything hi-fi I heard before. The dealer left me alone in the room, and I came out smiling after 4 hours ! I never planned to stay that long, but I enjoyed the music so much I just kept playing one song after the other.

It was not about toe-tapping at all, it played slow ballads with emotions I never heard before.

It played rock music with an intensity never heard before by me

and It played Dance music extremely well. I don't remember my foot tapping... I wasn't listening for it, and the dealer never used the word. He just smiled and said "well Naim really does play music in a way that touches the heart" after the 4 hours. Not a word before.

 I think these cliche toe tapping descriptions of Naim, completely miss the whole point.

You won't understand this from a forum.

Either you need to make a trip to a dealer, or take punt and buy a second hand Nait Xs.

analogmusic posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I now have visions of dealers demonstrating systems sitting or standing there as rigid as possible when playing non-Linn or non-Naim gear, no matter how rhythmic the music and how much they might like to succumb to the beat, then on swirching over instantly starting tapping, maybe even before the first track has started, with the depth and speed of the tap proportinal to the cost of the equipment, all programmed into them in advance. They must go to very interesting conditioning camps (training courses)...  Poor guys/gals - they must have paramedics on hand before daring to demonstrate fully loaded LP12  plus NDS into Statement!

I'm sure it is not like that in reality.

 

No it isn't at all. I've never seen any Naim dealer trying to push the kit on to a customer. It really isn't required.

When I first heard a Naim, it was set up properly at a dealer, and it was very apparent that it was unlike anything hi-fi I heard before. The dealer left me alone in the room, and I came out smiling after 4 hours ! I never planned to stay that long, but I enjoyed the music so much I just kept playing one song after the other.

It was not about toe-tapping at all, it played slow ballads with emotions I never heard before.

It played rock music with an intensity never heard before by me

and It played Dance music extremely well. I don't remember my foot tapping... I wasn't listening for it, and the dealer never used the word. He just smiled and said "well Naim really does play music in a way that touches the heart" after the 4 hours. Not a word before.

 I think these cliche toe tapping descriptions of Naim, completely miss the whole point.

 

On the toe tapping question (not how good Naim is), the fact that you haven't seen it happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and maybe even your dealer does it but in a skillful subtle way that leads his customers without them realising - so much is about the skill of the salesman, and hifi is no different from any other consumer product. The experience reported by some people does suggest that at least some of the time it is sales hype, maybe overtly by some dealers and maybe subliminally by others to promote sales of a product that perhaps nets them more profit than whatever alternative is being considered. So maybe that hype has simply become an ingrained cliche as a result of over-use, indeed as you said, completely missing the whole point and maybe that is the answer to my question.