Look Ma' there is no pre-amp at all...

Interesting. Can I ask, do you have experience of

a) using the DAC with a preamp? (If so was the preamp Naim?) and b) using the DAC into a non-Naim power amp? (if so, what amp?)

and if so, how do the different approaches all compare?

I am interested because I similarly use a DAC (Dave) without a preamp, liking the absence of extra electronics interfering with the directness of the sound. Mine is not a Naim power amp, but I am intrigued by Naim's description of their approach to power amp design and I think it may be beneficial and some time I may be tempted to try a 300 or 500 to see if it brings any significant positive difference. Meanwhile I am aware that the common view is that a Naim preamp is necessary to get the best out of a NAP, though I doubt that will be for impedance matching as some suggest, rather the Naim preamp may be the prime source of the 'Naim sound' that Naimeea crave and/or are hooked on - and it is that that makes me wary, because the impression I have is that it a step too removed from naturalness/realism/accuracy that I enjoy. (Though that would not stop me listening if I were to have the opportunity)

Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio-turntable fame uses his proprietary turntable into his proprietary phono stage directly into an amp with no pre-amp.   He can't quit talking about how good it sounds.  I have never heard it.

On the other hand, we had a Nait 5-i which, in that original vintage, had a passive volume control in lieu of a pre-amp.   The NaitXS of that era had a pre-amp section and sounded much better to me. 

Skip posted:

Lloyd Walker of Walker Audio-turntable fame uses his proprietary turntable into his proprietary phono stage directly into an amp with no pre-amp.   He can't quit talking about how good it sounds.  I have never heard it.

On the other hand, we had a Nait 5-i which, in that original vintage, had a passive volume control in lieu of a pre-amp.   The NaitXS of that era had a pre-amp section and sounded much better to me. 

the reference phono stage of lloyd walker has no volume control and can't be connected directly to an amp.  sorry Skip.  But the walker audio proscenium turntable is one of the very best, for sure.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Interesting. Can I ask, do you have experience of

a) using the DAC with a preamp? (If so was the preamp Naim?) and b) using the DAC into a non-Naim power amp? (if so, what amp?)

and if so, how do the different approaches all compare?

I am interested because I similarly use a DAC (Dave) without a preamp, liking the absence of extra electronics interfering with the directness of the sound. Mine is not a Naim power amp, but I am intrigued by Naim's description of their approach to power amp design and I think it may be beneficial and some time I may be tempted to try a 300 or 500 to see if it brings any significant positive difference. Meanwhile I am aware that the common view is that a Naim preamp is necessary to get the best out of a NAP, though I doubt that will be for impedance matching as some suggest, rather the Naim preamp may be the prime source of the 'Naim sound' that Naimeea crave and/or are hooked on - and it is that that makes me wary, because the impression I have is that it a step too removed from naturalness/realism/accuracy that I enjoy. (Though that would not stop me listening if I were to have the opportunity)

 

the chord dave has a volume control, the ndac not. So the dave can go straight into an amp, not the ndac. But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

Keler Pierre posted:

the chord dave has a volume control, the ndac not. So the dave can go straight into an amp, not the ndac. 

Not sure where the idea of nDAC came from in this context? No-one had suggested it.

Keler Pierre posted:

But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

On what do you base that statement?

From theory, the answer to this is complex and depends not just on the components themselves but can also be influenced by the electrical characteristics of the cable connecting them.  Almost any result is plausible.

Add in the variability of people and the variance of the the characteristics within a signal that they find distracting plus their varying musical tastes, and...
Well, I'm not going to make any predictions for any particular combination of components and people. 

My observation is that with Naim power amps the NAC (pre) is part of the amplifier itself. Therefore unless your replacement pre stage of whatever description is suitably impedance matched and frequency response matched  for your Naim power amp stage then it will be a lottery on whether it will sound optimum or not, or at best whether it sounds as intended. I remember from Electronics undergraduate days, the attenuatable preamp for audio looked like it should be so simple but became pretty involved to design in a way such that it was consistent and reasonably transparent across different levels of attenuation between two matched circuits.

I'm happy that this subject has met so much interest and opinion.

To put my experience into context back in 2013 I started with a NAP200 but decided for an Icon Audio LA4 MkIII tube pre-amp against the NAC202. I know that at that point I already deviated from the orthodox Naim approach but felt a better synergy with the Icon getting slightly romaticized, dare to say warmer, more blooming voice with bigger soundstage (especially in depth). Since then I moved upwards to NAP250DR, so I don't have direct comparison between Naim pre-amp included or not, can only extrapolate.

Regarding the electrical characteristics I can see only the unusually low input impedance of the power amps which requires consideration, that was one of the factor why I started to look at the Icon with its low (below 100 ohm) output impedance at that time. No problem is with my Resonessence Labs Concero HD DAC either it has 75 ohm output impedance and just enough juice to drive the power amp but not too much to require extensive attenuation in the digital domain. This DAC is described by Darko as "dynamically transparent" (a description I fully agree) so practically it should not be miles away from Naim school I think.

Some of you mentioned the passive pre-amps here but please keep in mind that my solution is completely different avoiding any control in analogue domain (such as volume pots with their deficiences). You can see my PC and DAC as a digital player and digital pre-amp combo where the majority of the work is done by the HQPlayer software (applying volume control, upsampling to DSD128 for those who interested by means of "poly-sync-short-mp" digital filter and "DSD7" delta-sigma modulator) and the the only thing the DAC should do is what it is the best at - namely simply converting a high-density DSD stream to analogue signal without any additional alteration (the DAC is capable to do upsampling and controlling volume internally but it is avoided here).

Yesterday I had the chance to listen to Rolf Lislevand's latest "La Mascarade" album (playing Corbetta and De Visee pieces on baroque guitar and theorbo) - was a sublime experience.

I wish you similar happy hours!

Julius

What is it that you are upsampling to DSD128, if that's PCM, then that's a lossy conversion.

Also 100Ω output impedance isn't particularly low, even for a pre-amp (or whatever you're using as a preamp).  Don't forget that you've not only got to drive the 1kHz input impedance of the poweramp, but also the combined capacitance of the interconnect cable and poweramp input at the full bandwidth of the preamp.

It may be worth clarifying here that in terms of connecting analogue audio devices such a preamp or output from a DAC to a power amp, "impedance matching" doesn't mean having the output impedance of the source component the same as the input impedance of the power amp, rather it means ensuring that the input impedance is sufficiently high to not have an adverse electrical effect on the output of the source component, which in simplistic terms generally translates to wanting the input impedance a lot higher than the output impedance (also allowing for cable impedance as noted by Huge).

Current Naim power amps have an input impedance of typically 18kΩ. Whilst this is lower than many power amps, a more common figure being perhaps around 50kΩ, the difference is  only about a factor of three, not orders of magnitude. Current Naim preamps seem to quote an output impedance of <50Ω. If that means close to 50Ω, then I wouldn't expect a source of 100Ω to behave very much differently into 18kΩ, though that also depends on the internal voltage and current delivery characteristics as well as the impedance.

For reference, Dave, the DAC I use without a preamp, had a quoted output impedance is 5.5mΩ.

Huge posted:

What is it that you are upsampling to DSD128, if that's PCM, then that's a lossy conversion.

Converting musical information into another communication channel of transparency greater than the original one (like from Red Book standard PCM source) or at least whose transparency is indistinguishable for the human hearing  (like from 24-bit/96-192kHz PCM source) is not considered to be lossy conversion.

On the other hand my experience is that in many cases the DSD-to-analogue conversion is implemented more effectively in the DACs.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

the chord dave has a volume control, the ndac not. So the dave can go straight into an amp, not the ndac. 

Not sure where the idea of nDAC came from in this context? No-one had suggested it.

Keler Pierre posted:

But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

On what do you base that statement?

 

Keler Pierre posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Interesting. Can I ask, do you have experience of

a) using the DAC with a preamp? (If so was the preamp Naim?) and b) using the DAC into a non-Naim power amp? (if so, what amp?)

and if so, how do the different approaches all compare?

I am interested because I similarly use a DAC (Dave) without a preamp, liking the absence of extra electronics interfering with the directness of the sound. Mine is not a Naim power amp, but I am intrigued by Naim's description of their approach to power amp design and I think it may be beneficial and some time I may be tempted to try a 300 or 500 to see if it brings any significant positive difference. Meanwhile I am aware that the common view is that a Naim preamp is necessary to get the best out of a NAP, though I doubt that will be for impedance matching as some suggest, rather the Naim preamp may be the prime source of the 'Naim sound' that Naimeea crave and/or are hooked on - and it is that that makes me wary, because the impression I have is that it a step too removed from naturalness/realism/accuracy that I enjoy. (Though that would not stop me listening if I were to have the opportunity)

 

the chord dave has a volume control, the ndac not. So the dave can go straight into an amp, not the ndac. But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

for ndac you are right, i must have read too quickly, nobody has told about it.  But for dacs or phono preamps with volume control, that can go straight into an amp, i have often read in reviews that a better quality preamp than that inside the dac or phono with inbuilt volume control will give better sound quality. So for instance in the dave dac, the preamp must cost around 3000/4000 pounds i guess. With a separated preamp , more than 5000/6000 pounds minimum, the final sound must be better.  It is what i understood personally in some audio reviews, but maybe i am wrong ...

i am using an ear yoshino 912 preamp ( tubes) with nap300, with modified chord signature tuned array cord. The combo is perfect for me. I wonder if an ayon polaris would be good too with the nap300.  I guess it is also a question of matching impedance?  my dealer could not respond to me. I just tried before the ear/naim combo and it worked perfectly. 

Keler Pierre posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Keler Pierre posted:

But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

On what do you base that statement?

 

 for dacs or phono preamps with volume control, that can go straight into an amp, i have often read in reviews that a better quality preamp than that inside the dac or phono with inbuilt volume control will give better sound quality. So for instance in the dave dac, the preamp must cost around 3000/4000 pounds i guess. With a separated preamp , more than 5000/6000 pounds minimum, the final sound must be better.  It is what i understood personally in some audio reviews, but maybe i am wrong ...

Thanks for clarification. Some reviewers have said Dave is better through a preamp, while others have said the reverse - one i recall re Dave said something along the lines that the two sounded different, but whilst through preamp was preferred by some people it was not the case for all, and concluded that direct was more accurate, just playing what the DAC put out, as opposed to colouring in some way. These differences suggest that it is more a matter of individual preference, and as I intimated, for Naim devotees a Naim preamp may be crucial for the desired sound character, even with a Naim power amp.

As my only experience is with a rather lesser preamp, than the price point you suggest (and haven't played through any Naim preamp) I am not in a position to make a definitive comment other than that it sounds fantastic direct into my power amp - and if that can be bettered I would be interested to hear (though that will likely wait a while as I have no active desire).

Julius posted:

Huge posted:

What is it that you are upsampling to DSD128, if that's PCM, then that's a lossy conversion.

Converting musical information into another communication channel of transparency greater than the original one (like from Red Book standard PCM source) or at least whose transparency is indistinguishable for the human hearing  (like from 24-bit/96-192kHz PCM source) is not considered to be lossy conversion.

On the other hand my experience is that in many cases the DSD-to-analogue conversion is implemented more effectively in the DACs.

Actually it's not a matter of what is considered to be a format of greater transparency nor even one with a higher data rate, it's about whether there is a direct numerical mapping between the formats.  If not, then the conversion requires entropy to be taken from the data and information is consequently lost.  This loss is mathematical in nature and has nothing go do with human perception.

This  lack of any direct numerical mapping is the case for any PCM to DSD conversion, just as it is for DSD to PCM conversion.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

Keler Pierre posted:

But if you use a very good preamp, a minimum of 75% price of the dave, the sound will be better. 

On what do you base that statement?

 

 for dacs or phono preamps with volume control, that can go straight into an amp, i have often read in reviews that a better quality preamp than that inside the dac or phono with inbuilt volume control will give better sound quality. So for instance in the dave dac, the preamp must cost around 3000/4000 pounds i guess. With a separated preamp , more than 5000/6000 pounds minimum, the final sound must be better.  It is what i understood personally in some audio reviews, but maybe i am wrong ...

Thanks for clarification. Some reviewers have said Dave is better through a preamp, while others have said the reverse - one i recall re Dave said something along the lines that the two sounded different, but whilst through preamp was preferred by some people it was not the case for all, and concluded that direct was more accurate, just playing what the DAC put out, as opposed to colouring in some way. These differences suggest that it is more a matter of individual preference, and as I intimated, for Naim devotees a Naim preamp may be crucial for the desired sound character, even with a Naim power amp.

As my only experience is with a rather lesser preamp, than the price point you suggest (and haven't played through any Naim preamp) I am not in a position to make a definitive comment other than that it sounds fantastic direct into my power amp - and if that can be bettered I would be interested to hear (though that will likely wait a while as I have no active desire).

i have not tested direct connection to an amp vs with a preamp, just read some reviews. 

My unique experience is with the ear cd player and also air tight atm 300 i think: these items had inbuilt volume control, so i heard the music without a preamp in both cases. In these cases only i noticed a little restricted dynamic but i can't say for sure that in addition of a good preamp the sound would be more dynamic. It was my feeling only...

For your system, if you are pleased, it is the most important. It is not always a good idea to search better because we can lost the sweat point of the sound we like.  

Perhaps just for curiosity , one day, if you borrow a preamp of a dealer and test it with your system. But there is a danger: if it is better, you will be tempted to buy the preamp....who knows?

Keler Pierre posted:

Perhaps just for curiosity , one day, if you borrow a preamp of a dealer and test it with your system. But there is a danger: if it is better, you will be tempted to buy the preamp....who knows?

Yes, indeed. But I guess it will wait several years at least, when I might move somewhere that is near enough to a dealer to do that more conveniently than I am able to at present, as I don't have a yearning to make me want to go to the hassle otherwise, and I would not do without having the resources to be able to follow through if that was then what I wanted. However, Although I would take the opportunity to do thta at the same time, I am actually more interested to know what a Naim power amp would sound like, though for my speakers that would likely need to be at least a 300.

Julius posted:

Hi,

I just want to share my latest experience driving my NAP250DR by a Resonessence Concero HD DAC directly. As I greatly prefer the sound of my DAC when fed with material upsampled to DSD128 by means of HQPlayer software on my own built, fairly strong audio PC I did an experiment driving the power amp directly by the DAC and controlling the volume in the software.

A real eye-opener I can tell you! The volume range depending on the music is around -18 dB ~ -30 dB, meaning that I loose a little resolution (3-5 bits from the 32) but this is more than compensated by additional transparency and realism. The back end of my system is Harbeth M30.1 supported by a REL Britannia B2 subwoofer, My system could sound with uncanny realism in case of really superb recordings (but of course ruthlessly revealing with poor ones). Some music is so eerily realistic and natural that gives me goosebumps (see Stacey Kent's Raconte-moi or Dominic Miller's Second Nature among many others)

Does anyone of you have experience with similar setup?

Thanks and happy listening!

Julius

Hi Julius, just thought  I would share this with you:

Why do I need a pre-amp?

ALLAN MILNEMEMBER

8/27/16 10:02 AM

HALLOWEEN MAN MEMBER

8/27/16 3:37 PM

yes, the hugo has its own internal preamp\volume\voltage control. it cannot be bypassed. connecting it to a second preamp will degrade transparancy, even if it was the best preamp ever made.

Statement S1

This was a hot post, no one contested HM's Statement! 

Check it out in your spare time! 

Allante93!