Cyclists !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It should be noted that when cycling uphill on any gradient greater than about 5% (or possibly less if you're in a particularly low gear) it can be difficult to stop and start again if it becomes necessary to unclip and put your foot down. Getting clipped in again requires sufficient forward momentum. I have often cycled downhill first (even gone back down to the bottom of the hill and started again) or cycled across the road before turning back uphill - this latter option proved particularly hairy when I was forced to stop to allow a motorist to pass whilst cycling over Hardnott and Wrynose in Cumbria where on one side of the road was a cliff face and the other a 200' drop.

Pedro posted:

...it is the (Lycra clad) cyclists that are the biggest pain irrespective of the category I have adopted on that particular occasion. I'm walking the dogs and a bike comes flying down the lane. I quickly bring the dogs in close to avoid the inevitable. Not a word of thanks...nothing, zilch.

...Driving the car along our single track with passing spaces lane. Bike ahead but clearly no room to get by safely unless he/she decides to let me by. He/she doesn't seem to want to for some obscure reason.  Up the hill....now doing less than 10mph. Long hill and I so enjoyed watching their effort to top the hill. Why not let me by? I would...and I do when I ride a bike. 

...Most cyclists are considerate, sensible reasonable people. An increasing number are not.....in my experience.

What the hell has wearing Lycra got to do with anything? The original post was concerned with cyclists on towpaths and footpaths...casual weekend cyclists mixing with walkers.

Lycra just so happens to be the best material for road cyclists; affording some skin protection as well as freedom of movement.  You may as well say that "it is the (Leather-wearing) motorcyclists that are the biggest pain etc etc...

Why not let the car by on the hill?  Well, why should he/she? Does it really matter that you may have been delayed by 30 seconds or so? That's the plain and simple truth about this whole argument; inconvenience to our own procession.

Finally, the reason that the number of cyclists are being perceived as inconsiderate is simply because there is an increasing number on the road.  Statistically you will get an increase in the arrogant, selfish riders, just like you do with drivers, motorcyclists, pedestrians et al.

SKDriver posted:

Lycra just so happens to be the best material for road cyclists; affording some skin protection as well as freedom of movement.  You may as well say that "it is the (Leather-wearing) motorcyclists that are the biggest pain etc etc...

I thought the prime function of lycra was for race purposes, (not that you can't wear for other cycling), tight fitting for minimum wind resistance while allowing full freedom of movement, rather than being focussed on skin protection (or comfort).

I don't wear cycling lycra kit myself, primarily because I don't wear anything special for cycling other than a hi vis vest, but if I did I would look for something styled or coloured differently from the majority of things I see other cyclists wearing, as it seems to be a bit of a 'uniform', which is anathema to me.

There's an interesting letter in this week's Cycling Weekly magazine describing the increase in road rage towards cyclists. The corresponent even reports being spat at by a motorist.

He suggests that anyone who faces this sort of hate crime should report such incident by calling 101 or on the True Vision website. The police have to keep a record of such things and, if an actual crime, it has to be followed up.

Just to clarify......I had already followed this cyclist for some 2-3 minutes before reaching the hill. It was another 3-4 minutes up the hill. It's a long and winding hill. No possibility of passing for ages. The reference to Lycra clad cyclists is reference to the type of cyclist I encounter in these situations. Mrs Hughes on her 3 speed sternly Archer bike pottering along has a bell and a smile to help her progress very nicely.

there is no speed limit on our lane, so presumably the national speed limit of 60mph applies....and so should common sense. This individual made no attempt to warn us of his extremely rapid approach. Colin and Phyllis are signed up for their speed training. Should mean they have a chance of catching him next time 

Peter

Pedro posted:

Just to clarify......I had already followed this cyclist for some 2-3 minutes before reaching the hill. It was another 3-4 minutes up the hill. It's a long and winding hill. No possibility of passing for ages. The reference to Lycra clad cyclists is reference to the type of cyclist I encounter in these situations. Mrs Hughes on her 3 speed sternly Archer bike pottering along has a bell and a smile to help her progress very nicely.

there is no speed limit on our lane, so presumably the national speed limit of 60mph applies....and so should common sense. This individual made no attempt to warn us of his extremely rapid approach. Colin and Phyllis are signed up for their speed training. Should mean they have a chance of catching him next time 

 

Peter

My wife and I encounter simulator problems caused by cyclists every single morning on our way to work - all the way through the city centre. My gripe is not so much with those participating in organised events or out training for competitions as they generally are considerate and give way, but rather the ones on their way to work. It seems most of them are of my own age - middle aged that is, and they all think it's ok to cause congestion because surely it is to all our benefit if they use all the road for cardiac exercise, without letting anyone by. I sometimes wonder if they have just forgot they are cycling and not driving a car?  I find this behaviour to be symptomatic of the way the society at large are becoming; selfish and inconsiderate.

I wonder how I will behave myself in the traffic from tomorrow on as I just purchased a new electric bicycle to commute to work?

Mr Fjeld posted:

I sometimes wonder if they have just forgot they are cycling and not driving a car? 

Oh no! Cyclists behaving like inconsiderate motorists. Whatever next?

Pedro

Please do not take this the wrong way, it is meant to be helpful and not critical, but I do hope that when you are walking your dogs on that country lane they are on a lead because if they are not you are breaking the law which the cyclists you are complaining about do not appear to be from your comments. Under the Road Traffic Act 1988 it is a criminal offence for a dog to be on a designated road (ie. a public road) without being held on a lead.

Moreover, if an unleashed dog causes an accident to a cyclist then the cyclist can and most probably will take legal action for damages against you and will almost certainly win.

Dogs uncontrolled off a lead on a public highway (and that includes cycle paths) are much more of a menace than the vast majority of cyclists.

Just an aside to this on bells. I regularly cycle on a shared use cycle path and I find the use of a bell can be counter productive as it can startle people and make them jump in the wrong direction. I much prefer to use verbal advice such as 'bike coming right or left' or 'can I just pass you right or left please'. I find this much more effective and safe and it generally brings a good response.

Mr Fjeld posted:

Pedro posted:

Just to clarify......I had already followed this cyclist for some 2-3 minutes before reaching the hill. It was another 3-4 minutes up the hill. It's a long and winding hill. No possibility of passing for ages. The reference to Lycra clad cyclists is reference to the type of cyclist I encounter in these situations. Mrs Hughes on her 3 speed sternly Archer bike pottering along has a bell and a smile to help her progress very nicely.

there is no speed limit on our lane, so presumably the national speed limit of 60mph applies....and so should common sense. This individual made no attempt to warn us of his extremely rapid approach. Colin and Phyllis are signed up for their speed training. Should mean they have a chance of catching him next time 

 

Peter

My wife and I encounter simulator problems caused by cyclists every single morning on our way to work - all the way through the city centre. My gripe is not so much with those participating in organised events or out training for competitions as they generally are considerate and give way, but rather the ones on their way to work. It seems most of them are of my own age - middle aged that is, and they all think it's ok to cause congestion because surely it is to all our benefit if they use all the road for cardiac exercise, without letting anyone by. I sometimes wonder if they have just forgot they are cycling and not driving a car?  I find this behaviour to be symptomatic of the way the society at large are becoming; selfish and inconsiderate.

I wonder how I will behave myself in the traffic from tomorrow on as I just purchased a new electric bicycle to commute to work?

Strange, because where I have lived groups of cyclists cause delays because they invariably cycle at least two abreast, sometimes more, and if racing they can be more bunched than that, and never check what traffic behind is doing. On the othe hand cyclists commuting to work are usually in single file and only cause hold-ups to cars on narrow sections of road, and in town at least as often as they hold up cars the converse is true if there is no cycle lane, the queues of cars holding up bikes - I spend half my time overtaking cars (yes, on the outside - and it is amazing how sometimes I'll get a shout of abuse from a driver as I go past, seemingly unable to cope with the idea that a mere bicycle can go faster than his flash lump of metal (it is always male drivers, in 4x4 or sporty cars).

As for comgestion caused by cyclists, maybe it is worth reminding yourself that for every one on the road that is one less car in the traffic jam ahead...    When you join them on your electric bike You will indeed gain a valuable opportunity to get some exercise during your commute as long as you don't only use battery power, helping to keep yourself healthy, which is a benefit to the state as well as to you because healthier people reduce demand on medical services. At the same time by abandoning the car for commuting you will be helping improve air quality for all, helping reduce CO2 emissions, helping to conserve fossil fuel stocks and reducing parking problems. Welcome to the world of cummuter cycling!

Yes, the dogs are on a lead. My comments are simply pointing out that a speeding cyclist passing by from behind and we were clearly unaware of his presence was the potential risk to us, the dogs and himself. Had I stepped to one side, I could have easily and inadvertently stepped in to his path. My comments re speed training the mutts was purely tongue in cheek. But my issue was his speed coupled with his lack of any warning whatsoever. I can hear cars approaching as there's little traffic on our single tracked lane with occasional passing places.

I do ride a bike regularly myself. For pleasure and fitness. I regularly approach walkers on our quiet lanes. A 'light' ring of the bell plus a friendly greeting works very well......every time.....no exceptions yet anyway.

i'm all for co-operation, live and let live etc. I cannot abide bad manners and ignorance. Sadly, I encounter it more often with 'enthusiastic' cyclists than car drivers, motorcyclists, horse riders, tractor drivers, pedestrians etc. As I say, that's my recent experience.

Peter

Yes Pedro. He should have given you a warning. Bike coming left or right as appropriate would have served, also you should always try and pass on the 'non dog' side. Campag gears are also good as you get the freewheeling 'rattle' that you don't with Shimano! 

At the end of the day it only needs a bit of sense and consideration on all sides.

The bell vs "on your left/right" vs a quiet pass is an interesting one. There are a few short shared-use path segments  on my regular commute but in general I avoid them as much as is possible. To avoid them altogether would require a 700km detour. I favour a fairly quiet pass. I support the principle that it is always the overtaking vehicle that must give way. So I simply wait until it is safe to pass with adequate clearance such that a deviation or misjudgement will not cause a collision. I feel that insisting that people get out of your way (like motorists do to cyclists and pedestrians) is incredibly rude. Having said that, if a group of pedestrians is completely blocking the path, I might have to wait a little until they hear my freewheel as I coast patiently behind them.

winkyincanada posted:

The bell vs "on your left/right" vs a quiet pass is an interesting one. There are a few short shared-use path segments  on my regular commute but in general I avoid them as much as is possible. To avoid them altogether would require a 700km detour. I favour a fairly quiet pass. I support the principle that it is always the overtaking vehicle that must give way. So I simply wait until it is safe to pass with adequate clearance such that a deviation or misjudgement will not cause a collision. I feel that insisting that people get out of your way (like motorists do to cyclists and pedestrians) is incredibly rude. Having said that, if a group of pedestrians is completely blocking the path, I might have to wait a little until they hear my freewheel as I coast patiently behind them.

I tend to agree, except I think that if a passing space is not just ahead, or if the pedestians are blocking passige simply by being spread wide, then slowing sufficiently for a reasonably quiet "excuse me please" (never forget the please!) from behind if they heven't heard your approach is perfectly reasonable, alternatively if you can see that there is space but simply want to be sure they aren't startled by your sudden passage past them, or that they don't unexpectedly move into your path without looking, a simple 'ding' on a bell from a bit further behind can let them know of your approach. In all cases it is good manners to say "thank you" when you pass unless if the pedestrians have had to do anything to alter their actions to accomodate you the cyclist.

I have never heard the call "on your left" (or right) in real life, and, until learning of its use through this forum, I would not have known whether it meant "look, there's something to see to the left of you", or "move to the left", or "I'm about to pass on your left". As the same will undoubtedly hold true for at least a proportion of other pedestrians, so when it is appropriate to use that sort of phrase it should be clear unambiguous, like "I'm coming through on your left" - and only used when there is clear room to do so, the call being notification to avoid startlement and warning not to move left.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Mr Fjeld posted:

Pedro posted:

Just to clarify......I had already followed this cyclist for some 2-3 minutes before reaching the hill. It was another 3-4 minutes up the hill. It's a long and winding hill. No possibility of passing for ages. The reference to Lycra clad cyclists is reference to the type of cyclist I encounter in these situations. Mrs Hughes on her 3 speed sternly Archer bike pottering along has a bell and a smile to help her progress very nicely.

there is no speed limit on our lane, so presumably the national speed limit of 60mph applies....and so should common sense. This individual made no attempt to warn us of his extremely rapid approach. Colin and Phyllis are signed up for their speed training. Should mean they have a chance of catching him next time 

 

Peter

My wife and I encounter simulator problems caused by cyclists every single morning on our way to work - all the way through the city centre. My gripe is not so much with those participating in organised events or out training for competitions as they generally are considerate and give way, but rather the ones on their way to work. It seems most of them are of my own age - middle aged that is, and they all think it's ok to cause congestion because surely it is to all our benefit if they use all the road for cardiac exercise, without letting anyone by. I sometimes wonder if they have just forgot they are cycling and not driving a car?  I find this behaviour to be symptomatic of the way the society at large are becoming; selfish and inconsiderate.

I wonder how I will behave myself in the traffic from tomorrow on as I just purchased a new electric bicycle to commute to work?

Strange, because where I have lived groups of cyclists cause delays because they invariably cycle at least two abreast, sometimes more, and if racing they can be more bunched than that, and never check what traffic behind is doing. On the othe hand cyclists commuting to work are usually in single file and only cause hold-ups to cars on narrow sections of road, and in town at least as often as they hold up cars the converse is true if there is no cycle lane, the queues of cars holding up bikes - I spend half my time overtaking cars (yes, on the outside - and it is amazing how sometimes I'll get a shout of abuse from a driver as I go past, seemingly unable to cope with the idea that a mere bicycle can go faster than his flash lump of metal (it is always male drivers, in 4x4 or sporty cars).

As for comgestion caused by cyclists, maybe it is worth reminding yourself that for every one on the road that is one less car in the traffic jam ahead...    When you join them on your electric bike You will indeed gain a valuable opportunity to get some exercise during your commute as long as you don't only use battery power, helping to keep yourself healthy, which is a benefit to the state as well as to you because healthier people reduce demand on medical services. At the same time by abandoning the car for commuting you will be helping improve air quality for all, helping reduce CO2 emissions, helping to conserve fossil fuel stocks and reducing parking problems. Welcome to the world of cummuter cycling!

Strange as it may seem things may work out differently in other countries - or simply regions or smaller places for that matter. Yes, cycling is a big thing where I live and and the cycling clubs in our area promote responsible behaviour such as using cycling lanes where possible and not hinder the local traffic. There are several races going on here annually and other persons using the road take care not create problems - mostly that is.

At half past seven in the morning a que is unthinkable in our town until the odd cyclist comes along. It is totally unnecessary to hold up other persons sharing the same road, especially when there is more than ample room on the shoulder of the road. It gets even worse when they refuse to use the cycling lane and creating congestion as a result.

I do know a bit about cycling myself as I used a bike as my preferred means of transport for many many years. However, I always cycled in the cycling lanes where possible, tried to be generous towards others; pedestrians, cars and cyclist as you are quite vulnerable riding a bicycle. To be honest there should almost be a "rider's licence" for cyclist. It's not that they are idiots ad it's of course a large and diverse group, but to me it looks like they are oblivious to the risk they pose to themselves as well as others; speeding on pavements when pedestrians are present, crossing the road when without seeing left or right, creating congestion rather than using cycling lanes etc.

Myself? I'm going to be extremely careful the next weeks until I feel relaxed and safe. Well, rather safe than sorry

Please let me clarify this.

If you have a clear path through then it should be enough to warn along the lines of 'bike coming to your left or right'. This needs to be at least 30 metres away from the people being passed. If the road is blocked by pedestrians or dog walkers then a 'can I come to your left or right please' is sufficient. Thanks very much afterwards always helps. Always pass away from the dog.

Just to make plain my position on bells. Even the first warning can often result in consternation so it is important to say afterwards 'don't worry just letting you know I'm here' as you go past.

2 further points:

1. The number of people who don't know left from right is incredible! Be prepared for it.

2. And to reiterate. If you think it is OK to let a dog run free on a cycle path, I make no apologies for saying that you are a dangerous moron (not you Pedro obviously).

Just have respect for other people and you will be OK.

https://www.outsideonline.com/...311/politics-passing

Another take on the shared-use trail-thing.

Camlan posted:

 

2. And to reiterate. If you think it is OK to let a dog run free on a cycle path, I make no apologies for saying that you are a dangerous moron (not you Pedro obviously).

Just have respect for other people and you will be OK.

On one short section of shared-use path I ride each day, I encounter (illegally) off-leash dogs more often than not. I am on this section for perhaps a minute each-way (I ride it very slowly and cautiously) and 5-8 times a week (out of 10 trips) there is at least one dog off leash. My record is 4 off-leash dogs within a minute. My conclusion is therefore that on average there is almost always an off-leash dog on this 100m section of busy shared-use path.

I suggested to one owner that her yappy, hyperactive little dog should be leashed. She responded that she had it off leash because it loved to chase the cyclists. When I suggested that this might be dangerous, she told me that I needed a better attitude. Any suggestion that owners leash their dogs is typically met with personal abuse, so I simply don't bother anymore.

audio1946 posted:

seems sensible for bikers that enter/town/cities should pay, may be a licience that lasts a few years. cycle lanes are expensive to install

Where I live there have been cycle lanes. Unfortunately these tended to appear and disappear alongside the normal carriageway and often collect all the nasties from the road e.g. grit, shards of glass and other detritus which no sane cyclist would wish to ride over. And when they needed to widen the road due to traffic volumes, the cycle lane was 'absorbed'. 

winkyincanada posted:

Camlan posted:

 

2. And to reiterate. If you think it is OK to let a dog run free on a cycle path, I make no apologies for saying that you are a dangerous moron (not you Pedro obviously).

Just have respect for other people and you will be OK.

On one short section of shared-use path I ride each day, I encounter (illegally) off-leash dogs more often than not. I am on this section for perhaps a minute each-way (I ride it very slowly and cautiously) and 5-8 times a week (out of 10 trips) there is at least one dog off leash. My record is 4 off-leash dogs within a minute. My conclusion is therefore that on average there is almost always an off-leash dog on this 100m section of busy shared-use path.

I suggested to one owner that her yappy, hyperactive little dog should be leashed. She responded that she had it off leash because it loved to chase the cyclists. When I suggested that this might be dangerous, she told me that I needed a better attitude. Any suggestion that owners leash their dogs is typically met with personal abuse, so I simply don't bother anymore.

I think we need a thread entitled 'Dog Owners!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!'

winkyincanada posted:

https://www.outsideonline.com/...311/politics-passing

Another take on the shared-use trail-thing.

When riding on a trail, it’s virtually impossible to pass a walker, runner, or hiker from behind without scaring the living shit out of them.

I think the above quote from winky's link sums it up nicely.............

Happy Listener posted:

audio1946 posted:

seems sensible for bikers that enter/town/cities should pay, may be a licience that lasts a few years. cycle lanes are expensive to install

Where I live there have been cycle lanes. Unfortunately these tended to appear and disappear alongside the normal carriageway and often collect all the nasties from the road e.g. grit, shards of glass and other detritus which no sane cyclist would wish to ride over. And when they needed to widen the road due to traffic volumes, the cycle lane was 'absorbed'. 

I'm a member of our local cycling advocacy group. It is a constant battle to have appropriate infrastructure installed. More voters drive than cycle, so the steps towards a more sustainable future are small ones. But one thing that we really are passionately against is the installation of inadequate and unsafe  infrastructure like shared-use paths. Better to install nothing at all than to install something that doesn't work. The common cry of the entitled, embattled and impatient motorist is "get on the bike path!" Well, here's news: We would get on the bike path if the bike path was actually suitable for use. That is, if it was free from numerous unsafe road crossings, unencumbered by bollards, free from pedestrians and off-leash dogs, free from broken glass, garbage, bits of metal that have fallen off cars and gravel; and if it actually went somewhere we wanted to go.

Don Atkinson posted:

winkyincanada posted:

https://www.outsideonline.com/...311/politics-passing

Another take on the shared-use trail-thing.

When riding on a trail, it’s virtually impossible to pass a walker, runner, or hiker from behind without scaring the living shit out of them.

I think the above quote from winky's link sums it up nicely.............

Absolutely. So get the bikes off the shared use paths, please. Make them one thing or another. I can't stand sharing those paths whether I am a walker or a cyclist at the time. They are absolutely terrifying to walk on and slow and frustrating to cycle on. Shared use paths can only work when trails are very lightly used. They have no place in the urban environment, nor in other busy walking and cycling areas.

Quick "war story". To avoid an 800m length of shared use path I ride on the very quiet dead-end road that runs parallel to, and directly beside the path. One morning I was chastised by two ladies walking their dogs on the same road. "Get on the bike path!" they exclaimed. I turned around and politely explained that I chose the road so as to not scare nor otherwise interfere with the pedestrians' experience on the path. It also allowed me to cycle faster than I could do safely on the shared-use path. They explained that they chose to walk on the road to avoid the cyclists. We laughed at the irony and continued on our way.

Don Atkinson posted

When riding on a trail, it’s virtually impossible to pass a walker, runner, or hiker from behind without scaring the living shit out of them.

 

How about using the bell or your voice (politely)? 

Drewy posted:

Don Atkinson posted

When riding on a trail, it’s virtually impossible to pass a walker, runner, or hiker from behind without scaring the living shit out of them.

 

How about using the bell or your voice (politely)? 

When I'm walking, that doesn't alleviate my fear of being struck by a cyclist. If the cyclist alerts me from far enough away, I'm not sure if it is for me or for another walker behind me, and I am still uncertain whether they have seen me or not. I'm now bracing for impact. If they leave it to the last minute, I'm certain it is for me, but it scares the crap out of me. I also find it rude. It is saying "Coming through, outta my way!" whereas, there should be no need. The overtaking vehicle must give way so should just wait until it is safe to pass.

When I'm cycling, I have no fear of hitting a pedestrian. I give them all ample room such that even if they do jump unexpectedly, I am well clear. But this can be slow and frustrating, hence my aversion to such shared-use facilities.

winkyincanada posted:

Drewy posted:

Don Atkinson posted

When riding on a trail, it’s virtually impossible to pass a walker, runner, or hiker from behind without scaring the living shit out of them.

 

How about using the bell or your voice (politely)? 

When I'm walking, that doesn't alleviate my fear of being struck by a cyclist. If the cyclist alerts me from far enough away, I'm not sure if it is for me or for another walker behind me, and I am still uncertain whether they have seen me or not. I'm now bracing for impact. If they leave it to the last minute, I'm certain it is for me, but it scares the crap out of me. I also find it rude. It is saying "Coming through, outta my way!" whereas, there should be no need. The overtaking vehicle must give way so should just wait until it is safe to pass.

 

Erm, you could look over your shoulder when you hear the bell, rather than braving yourself for impact...