Digital Source

Innocent Bystander posted:

There is now a quite a range of renderers named on heard, but very little comparative information on sound quality to help the OP decide between them

Sound quality whatever we may like to think is a subjective opinion, you may not like what I like, you may not hear what I hear.

This fact seems to be missed a lot of the time.

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

There is now a quite a range of renderers named on heard, but very little comparative information on sound quality to help the OP decide between them

Sound quality whatever we may like to think is a subjective opinion, you may not like what I like, you may not hear what I hear.

This fact seems to be missed a lot of the time.

.sjb

That is true, which makes it very difficult for someone to consider gear that they cannot hear before buying - which is of course where free trials of software where someone has the hardware, and home demos of off-the-shelf solutions come into their own.

Sloop John B posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Sloop John B posted:

dvshannow posted:

Hi,

 

Now i am relocating my system to the office i am looking to revamp the digital source The problem is the market of digital sources to feed a DAC seems pretty limited and seem to be

3. Get a 3rd party streamer 

 

The choices are limited if you limit them.

My suggestion.

 

Use that mac of yours to run Roon (or use any PC you have either), they need not be near the hifi just on the network

Get a Raspberry Pi (running Roon bridge)  to connect to the excellent asynchronous USB input on the DAC V1.

For less than £500 (including a lifetime Roon membership) you have a future proofed option that will sound as good as the NDX.

To reiterate, your choices are limited only if you limit them.

.sjb

 

why a raspberry pi with DAC V1 is better than sonos DAC V1?

1. Roon
2. RAAT (what Roon uses to transfer audio)
3. Hi- Res capability (Sonos is limited to CD rates)
4. ability to up sample to 384kHz in Roon
5. and in case it hasn't been obvious so far ... Roon.

 

.sjb

roon seems to be very convenient but it can't help in sound quality. The hi-rez capability is an argument however for sound quality.  but i think than ndx/nas/linear ps is better for sound quality than raspberry pi/ dac V1 and ndx can do with hi-rez.  As to 384 khz, personally i don't care. On 300 albums downloaded, i have only 2 dsd and the half is 24/96.  I don't even understand why so much dacs are produced nowadays with dsd 64 or more.... there is so little of them and the number of these albums is not increasing 

For upsampling 16/44 in very high hi-rez, i think it is not natural. I always prefer native format.

If you listen to classical music, you have more dsd or high hi-rez, perhaps it is your case.

TO me Pi >Hugo TT sounded better than my CD555. 

I didn't want it to but it did. (My ears, my room etc.)

I don't think there are too many on here that argue that the NDX sounds better than a CD5555, which is why I postulate the alternative  above that I do. 

Don't let size and price colour your thinking. I couldn't believe my big stonking CD555/555PS was being equaled if not bettered by a Pi/Hugo TT.

.sjb

Yes digital sources have redefined the landscape of sources and its surprising what can be done with a v good DAC and a reliable digital source... and while source of course important your example shows that great results can be achieved for less, as the Pi into DAC V1 replies also mention

All the replies have been very useful, this forum is amazing in the amount of responses! my plan right now is to do the following

as i am moving the equipment from the lounge to a (sound proofed) garden room study, i will gain the ability also to run a USB from my PC into the DAC. 

So i will see how the system sounds in the new room - add some sound absorption via sound absorbing pictures and some foam tiles and then go from there - it could be the ability to finally fine tune the room might surprise me how good the current setup sounds, and will compare the Sonos to the UBS into the Dacv1 first

What i am now thinking if happy with the USB into DAC v1 is...has anyone run a Dac V1 as a preamp into a 250DR or 300DR? this could be a very simple system where i am putting my resources into the amplification stage if i am happy with the sound of my V1 DAC. 

If i were to do this, the DB1 is currently connected to the SN2 sub out, how would i then connect up the DB1? 

dvshannow posted:

 

If i were to do this, the DB1 is currently connected to the SN2 sub out, how would i then connect up the DB1? 

 

so to answer myself here, it is possible to hook up the Dac V1 to the 300DR using the DIN preout and the DB1 would connect to the regular pre-out does anyone see any issue with doing it like that?

Sloop John B posted:

TO me Pi >Hugo TT sounded better than my CD555. 

I didn't want it to but it did. (My ears, my room etc.)

I don't think there are too many on here that argue that the NDX sounds better than a CD5555, which is why I postulate the alternative  above that I do. 

Don't let size and price colour your thinking. I couldn't believe my big stonking CD555/555PS was being equaled if not bettered by a Pi/Hugo TT.

.sjb

 

i did not say that ndx is better than cd555, just better than sonos with dacV1 or raspberry dacV1.  Hugo is better than dac V1....but raspberry with hugo better than cd555, i personally don't think, but i have not heard.  Perhaps chord dave/ raspberry should be equal to cd555.

dvshannow posted:

 

What i am now thinking if happy with the USB into DAC v1 is...has anyone run a Dac V1 as a preamp into a 250DR or 300DR? this could be a very simple system where i am putting my resources into the amplification stage if i am happy with the sound of my V1 DAC. 

As good as DAC-V1 is as a DAC, its pre-amp doesn't come even close to the pre-amp of SN2. When I auditioned DAC-V1 at my home setup, I briefly tested it as a preamp and made SN2 run as a poweramp. This combination sounded massively worse than V1 with fixed output to SN2. Night and day difference really. So I wouldn't recommend doing that. 

thanks that is interesting i will run the same test on my setup to see how it compares, if i hear similar then can draw a line through that option. 

thinking about it...its odd to me that adding a pre-amp stage sounds better than a device that is already outputting an analogue signal. for this to be true either the in this example:

1) The DAC v1 is not able to accurately linearly adjust its output levels AND/OR

2) The additional distortions added by an additional pre-amp colour the sound in a way that sounds preferable to some ears

would love to hear from someone with good technical knowledge of Naim pre-amps their thoughts on 1) . i would not be that surprised to hear the dynamic range gets somehow compressed at lower volume levels on inferior preamp ...in which case then this difference would fall away as the volume increases.

we can also state quite logically at full volume a V1 into a power amp is a more accurate rendition of the music as its a shorter path though this is hypothetical i agree.

And if you have a PC in the mix  you are open to the world of digital room correction, which I am reliably informed can have an immense effect on the sound of the system. 

.sjb

Keler Pierre posted:

Sloop John B posted:

TO me Pi >Hugo TT sounded better than my CD555. 

I didn't want it to but it did. (My ears, my room etc.)

I don't think there are too many on here that argue that the NDX sounds better than a CD5555, which is why I postulate the alternative  above that I do. 

Don't let size and price colour your thinking. I couldn't believe my big stonking CD555/555PS was being equaled if not bettered by a Pi/Hugo TT.

.sjb

 

i did not say that ndx is better than cd555, just better than sonos with dacV1 or raspberry dacV1.  Hugo is better than dac V1....but raspberry with hugo better than cd555, i personally don't think, but i have not heard.  Perhaps chord dave/ raspberry should be equal to cd555.

I rest my case m'Lord. 

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

And if you have a PC in the mix  you are open to the world of digital room correction, which I am reliably informed can have an immense effect on the sound of the system. 

 

.sjb

It can, and not necessarily for the good! Any attempt to boost out serious dips in response will almost inevitably have a negative effect on sound quality unless you have a very powerful amp indeed and speakers able to take the power - while people seated elsewhere, or neighbours, might be swamped. And too flat a response and it can sound unnatural, though that might be mainly because it is, no room other than an anechoic chamber ever being totally flat.

Sloop John B posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Sloop John B posted:

TO me Pi >Hugo TT sounded better than my CD555. 

I didn't want it to but it did. (My ears, my room etc.)

I don't think there are too many on here that argue that the NDX sounds better than a CD5555, which is why I postulate the alternative  above that I do. 

Don't let size and price colour your thinking. I couldn't believe my big stonking CD555/555PS was being equaled if not bettered by a Pi/Hugo TT.

.sjb

 

i did not say that ndx is better than cd555, just better than sonos with dacV1 or raspberry dacV1.  Hugo is better than dac V1....but raspberry with hugo better than cd555, i personally don't think, but i have not heard.  Perhaps chord dave/ raspberry should be equal to cd555.

I rest my case m'Lord. 

 

.sjb

Sloop, help me here please I am new to the DAC party. I am trying to piece together the parts of the puzzle from the different forums and learn that 1) I should be using Roon and 2) I don't necessarily need an NDX? Should I trade in my NDX and Mojo for a Hugo 2 fed from a Raspberry Pi running Roon bridge connected to my iMac via Ethernet? Motivation would be that any further funds could then be channeled into better Naim amplification. Or is there a reason to keep NDX? Can I then control volume remotely? How do I connect Apple TV and is there a substitute for the system automation in conjunction with Harmony remote?Sorry for the long question, would appreciate your help as this is a minefield if you don't know what you're getting into...

William posted:

Sloop John B posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Sloop John B posted:

TO me Pi >Hugo TT sounded better than my CD555. 

I didn't want it to but it did. (My ears, my room etc.)

I don't think there are too many on here that argue that the NDX sounds better than a CD5555, which is why I postulate the alternative  above that I do. 

Don't let size and price colour your thinking. I couldn't believe my big stonking CD555/555PS was being equaled if not bettered by a Pi/Hugo TT.

.sjb

 

i did not say that ndx is better than cd555, just better than sonos with dacV1 or raspberry dacV1.  Hugo is better than dac V1....but raspberry with hugo better than cd555, i personally don't think, but i have not heard.  Perhaps chord dave/ raspberry should be equal to cd555.

I rest my case m'Lord. 

 

.sjb

Sloop, help me here please I am new to the DAC party. I am trying to piece together the parts of the puzzle from the different forums and learn that 1) I should be using Roon and 2) I don't necessarily need an NDX? Should I trade in my NDX and Mojo for a Hugo 2 fed from a Raspberry Pi running Roon bridge connected to my iMac via Ethernet? Motivation would be that any further funds could then be channeled into better Naim amplification. Or is there a reason to keep NDX? Can I then control volume remotely? How do I connect Apple TV and is there a substitute for the system automation in conjunction with Harmony remote?Sorry for the long question, would appreciate your help as this is a minefield if you don't know what you're getting into...

roon is not an absolute necessity and will not improve your sound. For sound quality, if you have the budget, i would improve from mojo to hugo with your ndx, and 202/200/hicap from nait xs.  If only one to improve, it would be your nait xs.

After ndx, alone even, with a nas, is enough with your system. You can also have more with uniticore /ndac/ in dc1( spdif).

Hi dvshannow,

My advice:

If you can, go to your Naim dealer and do some demos wrt (1) and (2), including at home.

WRT (3), decide whether you have time and a liking for detail, or whether you would rather just spend that time on listening to music. I think I now have a really good front end, but it has taken seven months, experimentation and apprx.

Streamer
 600    Sonore microRendu
 200    sBooster PSU
 150    Singxer F1 DDC
 100     IFI iPurifier2
  50    JitterBuster

File Hosting
 500    StarTech USB Extender
  50    Cables (inc 2nd Hand)
 500    USB sticks
 400    Chinese R-Core LPSU
  20    SBooster VBus2
  50     Raspberry Pi 3
200     Network Isolators
£2,820

This does not include pieces of equipment that I bought and sold, generally at a small loss. It has been a fascinating journey but by no means bargain basement!

M

William posted:

Sloop, help me here please I am new to the DAC party. I am trying to piece together the parts of the puzzle from the different forums and learn that 1) I should be using Roon and 2) I don't necessarily need an NDX? Should I trade in my NDX and Mojo for a Hugo 2 fed from a Raspberry Pi running Roon bridge connected to my iMac via Ethernet? Motivation would be that any further funds could then be channeled into better Naim amplification. Or is there a reason to keep NDX? Can I then control volume remotely? How do I connect Apple TV and is there a substitute for the system automation in conjunction with Harmony remote?Sorry for the long question, would appreciate your help as this is a minefield if you don't know what you're getting into...

I'm not quite sure what exactly you are asking.

There is no "should" be using Roon.

Roon gives an outstanding interface (link) to your music collection that is so far ahead of the Naim (and most other offerings) it's not funny. Once you have Roon running on your imac you can have roon bridge running on a Raspberry Pi on the same network connected via USB (or Optical/coaxial if you get an add on) to for example the new Hugo 2.

I use my amplifier to control the volume, you can set up Roon to have a volume slider but I prefer not to do too much manipulation wuth the signal. Similarly the Hugo has a volume control but I tend to go with the consensus here and leave it at the turquoise level.

I presume you can attach the apple TV to another input on the Hugo.

For me it makes more sense to spend money on Naim amplification which is truly their forté and use something like a Raspberry Pi  into the best DAC you can afford. (There are other more bespoke options like the microrendu and SOTM 200 which have their fans as well). And as you can see from Mr Underhill there are a lot of further modifications you can try.

My advice would be to get a raspberry Pi with a HAT (google hifiberry-digi-bundle) which you'll get for under €100. Try this into your mojo using Roon using optical. Compare it to your NDX into the mojo. Make your own mind up if there is any diminution in sound quality. Make you own mind up if the Roon ecosystem is as good as we all say it is. Roon give a 14 day trial and their forum is full of useful information as well as many helpful posters.

Roon will also play to any Sonos, Squeezebox or bluesound products you have in the house. You can get another Pi with a headphone out for the bedroom. You can have music in every room in your house with Roon at not great expense.

I hope this helps.

.sjb

Thank you Sloop for the clear advice. Sounds like a very good starting point.

Pierre, thank you for your reply. I have added a HCDR to the XS2 for a big step up and am considering the Hugo 2. When I grow up I want a 552 into 300DR...

DVShannow, thank you for this very interesting thread. FWIW you would be very happy with an NDX and ecstatic if you later added a Hugo 2. I was also amazed by the difference a Hicap DR makes to the amplification. As we are finding out, though, there are more than a few ways to skin this cat and much will depend on how much research and money you want to put into your project before you can sit back and just enjoy the music. Good luck and look forward to hearing how you get on...

There is no "should" be using Roon.

Roon gives an outstanding interface (link) to your music collection that is so far ahead of the Naim (and most other offerings) it's not funny. 
...
For me it makes more sense to spend money on Naim amplification which is truly their forté and use something like a Raspberry Pi  into the best DAC you can afford. (There are other more bespoke options like the microrendu and SOTM 200 which have their fans as well). And as you can see from Mr Underhill there are a lot of further modifications you can try.

For me it was very similar. I first tried the Roon interface on my mac mini. The interface is so much better than any other alternative (audirvana, jriver, iTunes etc etc) that once I tried it I did not look back. 

Luckily I was hinted towards the microrendu and that again was a nice improvement. I did not try the standard PSU, but went straight for the Uptone LPS-1. 

I'm probably done on the streaming front. Next up is a DR treatment of my 300 ;-)

Sloop, I've been doing my homework and need some more grinds ;-) In the German branch of a ubiquitous international e-shop beginning with A, I have added the following 4 items to my cart (I'll translate in case your German isn't up to scratch): Raspberry Pi 896-8860 All-in-One Desktop PC 3 Model B Processor. Rydges EU 5V 3A 3000mAh Micro USB Power supply/DC Adapter. Hifiberry digi+ pro. Acrylic case for HiFiBerry DAC+ or Digi+ and Raspberry Pi 3, 2 Model B / B+ - transparent. Am I on the right track here?

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

 

I first tried the Roon interface on my mac mini. The interface is so much better than any other alternative (audirvana, jriver, iTunes etc etc) that once I tried it I did not look back. 

Luckily I was hinted towards the microrendu and that again was a nice improvement. I did not try the standard PSU, but went straight for the Uptone LPS-1. 

 

same here, albeit with a few stops along the way. i use Roon/microRendu/LPS-1 into a Chord 2Qute. cables are Chord Shawline USB B-to-A and Shawline RCA-to-DIN (though fancy cables are not really necessary, IMO) along with Blue Jeans Cable ethernet cables (inexpensive, but tested and certified to meet Cat 6 standards). and just for shits and giggles, i got the Cisco 2960 switch ($40, secondhand) about which folks here have been waxing poetic.

sounds pretty damn fine! ...and don't tell anyone, but my digital music consumption is mostly Internet radio. Tidal can be breathtakingly good, depending on the quality of the recording.

William posted:

Sloop, I've been doing my homework and need some more grinds ;-) In the German branch of a ubiquitous international e-shop beginning with A, I have added the following 4 items to my cart (I'll translate in case your German isn't up to scratch): Raspberry Pi 896-8860 All-in-One Desktop PC 3 Model B Processor. Rydges EU 5V 3A 3000mAh Micro USB Power supply/DC Adapter. Hifiberry digi+ pro. Acrylic case for HiFiBerry DAC+ or Digi+ and Raspberry Pi 3, 2 Model B / B+ - transparent. Am I on the right track here?

Head over to the Roon forum

seaech "beginners" to get the beginners guide to Roon on RPi. Have a good read. There is a good synopsis button which should suffice. 

Next search dietpi to get s guide to a lean mean RPi distro. 

When you have assimilated all this you will understand you also need a micro SD card but otherwise your A.de cart looks good to go. 

The metal case is so much nicer and not much more expensive though. 

The Roon forum is great and very welcoming, you might even come across a few familiar faces there. Nearly everything I know about RPi I got from the 2 threads above. 

.sjb

Thanks Sloop, that's very helpful. Yes the case looks good and I see you have good taste in music too. Next you'll be telling me you're Irish as well ;-)

William - please be aware that there's a subscription cost for using Roon (I think) and I seem to recall it's not cheap.