The more I read this thread and other political threads,,   I realise with most comments it's all about who we support  politically, as opposed to putting those allegiances aside and working out what is best for the country.

If anyone thinks JC is the man to negotiate a hard brexit then you must be bonkers, which  only leaves TM, so what do you expect her to do exactly... ??

Anyone who has any idea about negotiations must realise you have to state your position to the extreme, in order  to achieve any sort of reasonable outcome....

wenger2015 posted:

The more I read this thread and other political threads,,   I realise with most comments it's all about who we support  politically, as opposed to putting those allegiances aside and working out what is best for the country.

If anyone thinks JC is the man to negotiate a hard brexit then you must be bonkers, which  only leaves TM, so what do you expect her to do exactly... ??

Anyone who has any idea about negotiations must realise you have to state your position to the extreme, in order  to achieve any sort of reasonable outcome....

With political allegiances, we decide who (or what party) we like, fairly arbitrarily, then align our values theirs, even as they change. It's backwards, I know. It's a bit like how you think that "your" football team (selected arbitrarily in the distant past for reasons you may, or may not remember) is full of appropriately rewarded heroes, sponsored by ethical companies and is the only one who plays straight; and all the other players are overpaid diving, cheating cowards who play for morally bankrupt corporate interests. The referees, for some reason are also conspiring en mass against your team.

wenger2015 posted:

The more I read this thread and other political threads,,   I realise with most comments it's all about who we support  politically, as opposed to putting those allegiances aside and working out what is best for the country.

If anyone thinks JC is the man to negotiate a hard brexit then you must be bonkers, which  only leaves TM, so what do you expect her to do exactly... ??

Anyone who has any idea about negotiations must realise you have to state your position to the extreme, in order  to achieve any sort of reasonable outcome....

I've done some really complex negotiations during my career, with NHS bodies, housing associations, Government departments and contractors. In my experience if you start with an extreme position you get precisely nowhere. To me, it seems that May is taking a hard line for her own political ends, rather than for the good of the country, which I think is unforgivable. A friend of mine holds exactly the same view - he was telling me outside the polling station this morning - and he's a lifelong Tory voter. 

May is doing so much damage by her extreme stance and is digging herself into a hole from which she'll find it very hard to escape. You just can't get your way against a united EU it seems. There's an interesting article in today's Guardian by Yanis Varoufakis about the obstacles he came up against with the EU. It's well worth reading. May has a tendency to centralise power, so at lest when she fails it'll be her that voters blame.

wenger2015 posted:

The more I read this thread and other political threads,,   I realise with most comments it's all about who we support  politically, as opposed to putting those allegiances aside and working out what is best for the country.

If anyone thinks JC is the man to negotiate a hard brexit then you must be bonkers, which  only leaves TM, so what do you expect her to do exactly... ??

I expect her to approach those she is negotiating with as allies not as enemies.  Talk and threats about withdrawing security co-operation and turning the UK into a tax haven is not offering olive branches and possibilities for good relationships.  Talk of the EU trying to interfere, with them wanting to punish the UK and other such nonsense is nothing to do with the negotiations but is playing up to the "Daily Mail" crowd*.  Talk of no deal is better than a bad deal is (IMO) counter productive; as yes it would cause damage to the EU; but it would cause more damage to the UK.

*no offence is intended to any reader of the Daily Mail, however the Daily Mail (along with the Express and to a lesser extent the Sun) do play the "the EU is bad and must be crushed" often.

Anyone who has any idea about negotiations must realise you have to state your position to the extreme, in order  to achieve any sort of reasonable outcome....

Yes, you start at your extreme (dream) situation.  But you also have to acknowledge that the negotiations are going to require compromise.  You have to give something to win something.  Often in negotiations you make a good will gesture at the start too.  What you don't do is stomp your feet and throw your toys out the pram when someone stands in your way.  You work to convince them and to compromise.

Remember its the UK who are leaving; not the EU kicking the UK out.  Therefore the UK by default are the "supplicants" in the negotiations.  They are the ones who want a continued relationship for the good of the UK economy.

Hungryhalibut posted:

wenger2015 posted:

The more I read this thread and other political threads,,   I realise with most comments it's all about who we support  politically, as opposed to putting those allegiances aside and working out what is best for the country.

If anyone thinks JC is the man to negotiate a hard brexit then you must be bonkers, which  only leaves TM, so what do you expect her to do exactly... ??

Anyone who has any idea about negotiations must realise you have to state your position to the extreme, in order  to achieve any sort of reasonable outcome....

I've done some really complex negotiations during my career, with NHS bodies, housing associations, Government departments and contractors. In my experience if you start with an extreme position you get precisely nowhere. To me, it seems that May is taking a hard line for her own political ends, rather than for the good of the country, which I think is unforgivable. A friend of mine holds exactly the same view - he was telling me outside the polling station this morning - and he's a lifelong Tory voter. 

May is doing so much damage by her extreme stance and is digging herself into a hole from which she'll find it very hard to escape. You just can't get your way against a united EU it seems. There's an interesting article in today's Guardian by Yanis Varoufakis about the obstacles he came up against with the EU. It's well worth reading. May has a tendency to centralise power, so at lest when she fails it'll be her that voters blame.

When I look back over the years, my least effective negotiations came from making the mistake of being to accommodating. 

I don't see the EU being particularly reasonable,  if anything just the opposite,  which is what I would expect. 

I do think it's important of at least giving the impression we are not going to be a soft touch and then as we all know be reasonable in negotiations.

Plus don't underestimate TM, she may not be for 'turning',  where have I heard that before 

Eloise wrote:

"Remember its the UK who are leaving; not the EU kicking the UK out. Therefore the UK by default are the "supplicants" in the negotiations. They are the ones who want a continued relationship for the good of the UK economy."

Dear Drunker,

We, the undersigned citizens of the UK have given you fair, clear and advanced warnings of our intentions to extricate ourselves from your great kleptocracy by 2019. We do appreciate that your wine cellars will mIss the generous contributions we have made over the years and apologise the post prandial indigestion this may cause. 

If, after all our extortionate payments made to your bumbling bureaucracy, you should feel that pompous threats are the way forward to our future relations then please be assured we will take the greatest pleasure in kicking you and your risible threats off of our island already overflowing with the unemployed caused by your Eurocratic nonsensical dabbling in 27 other countries.  

I also appreciate that Frau Merkel may give you a bit of a going over with some overripe sauerkraut for not strapping on a bigger pair, or even being a bit more sober, when encountering Mme May but you do get the big bucks for being a snivelling, grovelling weasel.

Alors. mon non si brave ce n'etait pas un plaisir et je vous souhaite un bon voyage a la  desastre.

Cordialement,

T. May

Chilled, listening to Chaleur Humaine, by Christine and The Queens on some lovely French HiFi. Moi, un Europhobe, je ne crois  pas! 

There is something in showing that you are willing to stand up for yourself though and not be bullied, and the EU and Germany has something of a history of doing just that to other countries when negotiating with them.  The leaks from the recent meeting, if they were leaks and not just spin, with Ms May were unacceptable and could not be allowed to happen without a strong response, failure to do so would indicate weakness and put her at a disadvantage in future negotiations.  All parties are likely to over state their case and, hopefully, parties will subsequently compromise, that's how negotiations work.  If you start off too accommodating then you get your bottom spanked. 

andarkian posted:

Eloise wrote:

"Remember its the UK who are leaving; not the EU kicking the UK out. Therefore the UK by default are the "supplicants" in the negotiations. They are the ones who want a continued relationship for the good of the UK economy."

Dear Drunker,

We, the undersigned citizens of the UK have given you fair, clear and advanced warnings of our intentions to extricate ourselves from your great kleptocracy by 2019. We do appreciate that your wine cellars will mIss the generous contributions we have made over the years and apologise the post prandial indigestion this may cause. 

If, after all our extortionate payments made to your bumbling bureaucracy, you should feel that pompous threats are the way forward to our future relations then please be assured we will take the greatest pleasure in kicking you and your risible threats off of our island already overflowing with the unemployed caused by your Eurocratic nonsensical dabbling in 27 other countries.  

I also appreciate that Frau Merkel may give you a bit of a going over with some overripe sauerkraut for not strapping on a bigger pair, or even being a bit more sober, when encountering Mme May but you do get the big bucks for being a snivelling, grovelling weasel.

Alors. mon non si brave ce n'etait pas un plaisir et je vous souhaite un bon voyage a la  desastre.

Cordialement,

T. May

 

Dear T.May ... you are welcome to leave ... please arrange for all EU banking to be moved to the EU nations.  In addition there will be the customary 10pc duty and in addition there will be inspection on all parts moving in and out of the EU which will take a minimum of 24 hours, up to 72 hours.  All your citizens will be required to apply for a visa to move in and out of the EU and residency permits will be needed.

Have a nice day ... and remember too much is almost enough when you bend over for good old' Donald!

dayjay posted:

There is something in showing that you are willing to stand up for yourself though and not be bullied, and the EU and Germany has something of a history of doing just that to other countries when negotiating with them.  The leaks from the recent meeting, if they were leaks and not just spin, with Ms May were unacceptable and could not be allowed to happen without a strong response, failure to do so would indicate weakness and put her at a disadvantage in future negotiations.  All parties are likely to over state their case and, hopefully, parties will subsequently compromise, that's how negotiations work.  If you start off too accommodating then you get your bottom spanked. 

There is a difference though (IMO) between being willing to stand up for yourself and no being too accommodating, and starting off a process with ideas which are completely unrealistic.  The "leaks" just showed how far apart the UK and EU thinking is ... surely its important for us (the people) to hear both sides of the situation.  TM continually spouts how everything will be find ... well NO it won't be.  The UK is going to have years of upheaval as a result of this.  In 5, 10, 15 years time after 2019 when we have finally left then yes the UK will be strong enough (if its also humble enough) to find a place in the world which is strong ... but the EU gives the UK its current strength.

To Andarkin and others, the money sent as part of our commitment to the EU is wasted money; but its not, it is (was) an investment in securing the UKs place in the world.  That 350million a week (which wasn't) ... is more important than the £30billion spent on Trident!

Am I missing something. Why all the fuss about a few EU officials wanting the brexit negotiations to fail.

 Surely Mrs May must have noticed the fact there are quite a few Conservatives that want the negotiations to fail.

Yanis Varoufakis was on sky news yesterday, his assessment of the situation was, Mrs May is taking a path that is not in the best interests of the UK people and not in the best interests of UK businesses, for purely ideological reasons.

GraemeH posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Anyway, to bring the thread back on topic - as a bit of a connoisseur of car-crash interviews, Abbott's was riught up there with the best. However for me, the cream of the crop - in recent times at any rate - was Natalie Bennett's catastrophic interview - also with Nick "Fatty" Ferrari - at the time of the last GE. For sheer, bumbling, ill-briefed overload, it was the acme.

Yes, I was reminded of that catastrophe when cringing at Abbott. It's a close call as to which reaches the nadir for me. There's something about the way Abbott tries to exude confidence through the whole debacle that clinches it for me. 

G

I agree, Graeme.  Bennett is/was a minor politician whereas this interview was with the Shadow Home Secretary for goodness sake.   

fatcat posted:

Am I missing something. Why all the fuss about a few EU officials wanting the brexit negotiations to fail.

 Surely Mrs May must have noticed the fact there are quite a few Conservatives that want the negotiations to fail.

Yanis Varoufakis was on sky news yesterday, his assessment of the situation was, Mrs May is taking a path that is not in the best interests of the UK people and not in the best interests of UK businesses, for purely ideological reasons.

 

 

His Guardian piece was insightful I thought.

G

MDS posted:

GraemeH posted:

Kevin-W posted:

Anyway, to bring the thread back on topic - as a bit of a connoisseur of car-crash interviews, Abbott's was riught up there with the best. However for me, the cream of the crop - in recent times at any rate - was Natalie Bennett's catastrophic interview - also with Nick "Fatty" Ferrari - at the time of the last GE. For sheer, bumbling, ill-briefed overload, it was the acme.

Yes, I was reminded of that catastrophe when cringing at Abbott. It's a close call as to which reaches the nadir for me. There's something about the way Abbott tries to exude confidence through the whole debacle that clinches it for me. 

G

I agree, Graeme.  Bennett is/was a minor politician whereas this interview was with the Shadow Home Secretary for goodness sake.   

I think Bennetts face went 'green'....!!!

Spotted on facebook

Eloise posted:

SKDriver posted:

Just listened to Angela Raynor being interviewed on 5Live...

She refused to cost Labours' education promises because she didn't know how much they were going to cost; or that Jeremy Corbin had apparently promised a proportion of the £2-3bn extra supposedly raised from capital gains tax towards education.

I'm not a labour supporter but I do feel that we need a strong alternative to the conservatives. Unfortunately Labour is not that since they are completely inept when it comes to any financial realism or planning. One arm literally doesn't know what the other is doing.

FACT

The FACT is though that Conservatives don't know what they are doing either ... they are just better at pulling the wool over your eyes and performing a magic trick.  

The FACT is that austerity has not reduced the national debt.  It has taken money away from the poorest in society while also reducing the tax burden of the richest in society.  Its failed to keep up with the requirements of the NHS.  Its failed to offer improvement in education.  Its failed to reduce the inequities between rich and poor.  Its failed to reduce the housing crisis.

The FACT is that the Tories have failed.

Yet people will vote for them because Labour *might* be worse!

People will vote for them because Labour ARE worse ....

FACT

Just watched John McDonnell make a valiant attempt to spin the results so far on breakfast TV. Felt a little sorry for him until he started to claim we would turn the results around in time for the general election by exposing Corbyn more to the public.  When the best news he could find was that we haven't lost any seats in Cardiff you really have got to despair.

dayjay posted:

Just watched John McDonnell make a valiant attempt to spin the results so far on breakfast TV. Felt a little sorry for him until he started to claim we would turn the results around in time for the general election by exposing Corbyn more to the public.  When the best news he could find was that we haven't lost any seats in Cardiff you really have got to despair.

Dayjay,

As a Labour supporter, now is going to be the Winter of your discontent. Your Party has been hijacked by a bunch of worthless activists whose most productive work has probably been attempting to sell The Socialist Worker. McDonnell is a terrorist loving scumbag and Corbyn has spent most of his Parliamentary life voting against his own Party. Abbott and Nugee have openly demonstrated their inadequacies and prejudices against the working man and woman.

The country does not need or deserve the current Labour Party which needs to be reoccupied for the working and middle classes in order to rid itself of the Marxists, Nihilists and Activists who are disgracing the name Labour.

Mike-B posted:

Yes that Natalie Bennett interview turned out as the end for her & probably the start of the demise of the Green party as I'm not expecting Caroline Lucas to retain Brighton Pav. & we will probably see them loose a lot of seats today (tomorrow).  

I'm sure Diane Abbott will not be blamed for the final outcome in June, I'm not even sure Corbyn will get blamed by the grass roots party membership.  However with 258 seats now, most are predicting they will loose 50,  I'm predicting 70:  question is will that kind of national car crash have Corbyn resigning.  

Same question with UKIP,  I'm expecting no seats for them & a lot of loses in the local/county elections.           

............   I got that one wrong,  Greens gained 6 seats over the UK.   OK nothing in the big scheme of things,  but must be pleasing for them nonetheless.    I suspect votes were from disaffected labour voters if the greens I know are anything to go by, all avid left wing.

Corbyn has the air of a man in cloud cuckoo land,  "we have time to turn it around" he says.  .............   & where is Nuttall since yesterdays UKIP wipeout.