Audioquest Cinnamon Ethernet Cable

Jinjuku posted:

 

The jitter on the Ethernet cables matters naught. It gets obliterated when it hits a buffer. It is 100% inconsequential. When someone starts playback and pull the cable and the music still plays. What happens to the audio at that point moving forward? It's a simple question. Can you answer it or not? Oh brother "detail of the research I have is still covered by commercial confidentiality". Can't make this stuff up any faster? 

I thought the James Bondesq "Oh I have information too secret to reveal" about some heretofore undiscovered magical property of a 34 year old open standard like ethernet was pretty over the top too. However, it is not as over the top as the snake oil companies like AudioQuest sell that somehow have properties unmeasurable even by $14,000 Fluke analysers and other lab equimpent that magically makes ethernet "sound better"

The point is that there is always a coupling between circuits in the same enclosure.  This is a well established principle.

Different cable dimensions result in shifts in the resonances of the attached circuits.

it is for YOU to disprove this to justify the absolute separation of the digital analysis away from the analogue analysis (which you have totally failed to consider) and your complete denial the possibility of this coupling.

Your ad hominem attacks do you no credit, rather highlighting the irrationality of your approach.

DUPREE posted:

Jinjuku posted:

 

The jitter on the Ethernet cables matters naught. It gets obliterated when it hits a buffer. It is 100% inconsequential. When someone starts playback and pull the cable and the music still plays. What happens to the audio at that point moving forward? It's a simple question. Can you answer it or not? Oh brother "detail of the research I have is still covered by commercial confidentiality". Can't make this stuff up any faster? 

I thought the James Bondesq "Oh I have information too secret to reveal" about some heretofore undiscovered magical property of a 34 year old open standard like ethernet was pretty over the top too. However, it is not as over the top as the snake oil companies like AudioQuest sell that somehow have properties unmeasurable even by $14,000 Fluke analysers and other lab equimpent that magically makes ethernet "sound better"

It's only the detail of the other analogue circuits (and hence the subsequent mathematical analyses) that were affected by influence from connected digital circuitry and the steps we used to overcome the problem that's covered by an open ended confidentiality agreement.  Unfortunately without explaining them I can't provide the 'proof' you seek of a well known phenomenon called coupling.

If you don't understand inductive and capacitative coupling then you won't understand the evidence anyway; if you do understand then why are you asking for proof.

In the first case do the research for yourself, in the second then, well...

Huge posted:

The point is that there is always a coupling between circuits in the same enclosure.  This is a well established principle.

Different cable dimensions result in shifts in the resonances of the attached circuits.

it is for YOU to disprove this to justify the absolute separation of the digital analysis away from the analogue analysis (which you have totally failed to consider) and your complete denial the possibility of this coupling.

Your ad hominem attacks do you no credit, rather highlighting the irrationality of your approach.

Citations please. These aren't ad-hom attacks. I've been through 4 streamers, one 315 foot generic cable vs 3 other cables with FFT showing no changes in the output.

You make my point by evading my question:

When the Ethernet cable is unplugged, which using your own logic provides the optimal scenario for de-coupling, what happens to the sound quality of what is played back out of buffer. Is there a reason you haven't at least attempted?

Jinjuku posted:

When the Ethernet cable is unplugged, which using your own logic provides the optimal scenario for de-coupling, what happens to the sound quality of what is played back out of buffer. Is there a reason you haven't at least attempted?

Refer to previous.

Huge posted:

Jinjuku posted:

When the Ethernet cable is unplugged, which using your own logic provides the optimal scenario for de-coupling, what happens to the sound quality of what is played back out of buffer. Is there a reason you haven't at least attempted?

Refer to previous.

So you are an authority on ANG and DNG mixed systems, you are an authority on capacitive and inductive coupling in these mixed systems, you are an authority on cable geometry and the resultant circuit resonances but you can't offer even a guess? 

I'm reading you loud and clear. 

Ad hominem.

Huge posted:

Ad hominem.

Not at all. I'm trying to pierce the smoke of obfuscation. I've asked a simple question of a subject matter expert and I've only seen you dance around without taking a stab at an educated guess.

What I'm surprised by is given you authority on the matter that my suggestion about pulling the cable and letting it play back out of buffer seemed to be a novel idea of doing some quick and easy evaluation that doesn't have any costs associated with it. 

Jinjuku posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

This thread has made an amusing read this evening. However what is interesting it appears arguments are going back and forward and perhaps missing each other. The loading effect of an ethernet cable (or USB, HDMI, or any cable carrying high frequency electrical current) will impact the operation of connected equipment to varying degrees in  terms of ground modulation, power supply modulation and electromagnetic coupling.

Along with CPU power modulation, RAM, USB, PCIe, L2/L3 caching, the buffers on the NIC itself... Are you really trying to say that with everything else going on that it's so additive that it's audible through all those other processes going on?

There is a reason I've never been able to give the money away to the believers. The few that said they would backed out. 

Unfortunately I have to keep asking this question: When the Ethernet cable is pulled and the audio continues to play what happens to the audio quality?

When the audio stops its hard to say what happens to audio quality... the odd second playing out on buffer is hard to tell as usually I would need to be pulling out the cable and standing away from my optimum listening point... I can however change the timing of my TCP/IP frames going to my streamer and I can definitely hear a difference. I also hear a difference between a Cisco 2960 or 3550 switch and a cheap consumer one such a Netgear GS105

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Jinjuku posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

This thread has made an amusing read this evening. However what is interesting it appears arguments are going back and forward and perhaps missing each other. The loading effect of an ethernet cable (or USB, HDMI, or any cable carrying high frequency electrical current) will impact the operation of connected equipment to varying degrees in  terms of ground modulation, power supply modulation and electromagnetic coupling.

Along with CPU power modulation, RAM, USB, PCIe, L2/L3 caching, the buffers on the NIC itself... Are you really trying to say that with everything else going on that it's so additive that it's audible through all those other processes going on?

There is a reason I've never been able to give the money away to the believers. The few that said they would backed out. 

Unfortunately I have to keep asking this question: When the Ethernet cable is pulled and the audio continues to play what happens to the audio quality?

When the audio stops its hard to say what happens to audio quality... the odd second playing out on buffer is hard to tell as usually I would need to be pulling out the cable and standing away from my optimum listening point... I can however change the timing of my TCP/IP frames going to my streamer and I can definitely hear a difference. I also hear a difference between a Cisco 2960 or 3550 switch and a cheap consumer one such a Netgear GS105

On the switch side of things. In the T.I. paper they mention the power supply in the switch via it being single ended in nature. That would be an example of internal noise and that's going to happen over $700 or $7 cables. 

I'm a CCNP so I have a rack full of Cisco Gear. The $90 SG200-8 is a great switch and I can't tell any difference between that, my 3750, ESW 520, or my 6548. 

One of these days I'll come across an intellectually honest audiophile that will welcome some experimentation. 

I just installed a Cisco 2960 to replace my £15 TP Link switch. The improvement in SQ was dramatic. 

Jinjuku posted:

Huge posted:

Ad hominem.

Not at all. I'm trying to pierce the smoke of obfuscation. I've asked a simple question of a subject matter expert and I've only seen you dance around without taking a stab at an educated guess.

What I'm surprised by is given you authority on the matter that my suggestion about pulling the cable and letting it play back out of buffer seemed to be a novel idea of doing some quick and easy evaluation that doesn't have any costs associated with it. 

Ad hominem again.

Read my previous reply on this.

S3 posted:

I just installed a Cisco 2960 to replace my £15 TP Link switch. The improvement in SQ was dramatic. 

Now look here, S3. You can't just come on here saying you've bought a switch and it sounds better when everyone knows it can make no difference. Where is your scientific peer reviewed evidence? Where are the objective facts? Where are the Latin words that show you are really authoritative and demonstrate why anyone should pay you a blind bit of notice? You are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that hifi is about listening to music when in fact it's about dither offsets in your flange sprocket. Get a grip, man. 

You mean we're not allowed ad hoc use of Latin?

Hungryhalibut posted:

S3 posted:

I just installed a Cisco 2960 to replace my £15 TP Link switch. The improvement in SQ was dramatic. 

Now look here, S3. You can't just come on here saying you've bought a switch and it sounds better when everyone knows it can make no difference. Where is your scientific peer reviewed evidence? Where are the objective facts? Where are the Latin words that show you are really authoritative and demonstrate why anyone should pay you a blind bit of notice? You are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that hifi is about listening to music when in fact it's about dither offsets in your flange sprocket. Get a grip, man. 

Read the T.I. paper on Radiated Emissions of 10/100 LAN's. There's a clue in there for anyone who cares to expand their understanding. 

Blind A/B test or it doesn't count.

DUPREE posted:

Blind A/B test or it doesn't count.

Don't you mean double blind and A/B/X?

Jinjuku posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

S3 posted:

I just installed a Cisco 2960 to replace my £15 TP Link switch. The improvement in SQ was dramatic. 

Now look here, S3. You can't just come on here saying you've bought a switch and it sounds better when everyone knows it can make no difference. Where is your scientific peer reviewed evidence? Where are the objective facts? Where are the Latin words that show you are really authoritative and demonstrate why anyone should pay you a blind bit of notice? You are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that hifi is about listening to music when in fact it's about dither offsets in your flange sprocket. Get a grip, man. 

Read the T.I. paper on Radiated Emissions of 10/100 LAN's. There's a clue in there for anyone who cares to expand their understanding. 

I think HH is pulling S3's leg somewhat.... the clue is in the listening and the honesty irrespective of the jargon and what has been purchased... may I suggest you take a step back and look.. you might be closer in viewpoint to some of these forum members than you think... 

Ha! I'm just relaying what I'm hearing Nigel but I do acknowledge your tongue in cheek banter.

Now, I should qualify that with another important piece of information that I was slightly reluctant to relay in light of forum rules. The same day as I installed my used Cisco 2960 switch I also took delivery of the middle eastern PS for the UnitiServe. With this and the 2960 in place there is no doubt that the system has stepped up significantly.

I haven't removed either component to test which might have made the greater contribution mainly because I don't want to fiddle with the system and risk compromising what is the purest most enjoyable sound I've heard to date. However, based on what I'm hearing, I'd heartily recommend both as upgrades to a streaming based system.

Kind regards 

David

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Incorrect. Cat 6A which really is optimum for 10 gobs link speeds, which most if not all consumer equipment can not support, can be obtained in UTP or U/FTP versions. That is it can be provided in unshielded or per twist pair shieldeded versions. The unshielded variants tend to be of larger diameter as they use non metallic spacers between the twisted pairs to reduce crosstalk between the pairs.

BTW over a 20m run of Cat5e over several years of quite high data transfer resulting in a few terabytes of data, I have not had a single corrupt frame.. the counters remain all at 0. For upto 1Gbps unless you are in a high RFI environment (certainly not one safe to live in in my opinion)  then Cat 5e shielded or non shielded is perfect.

OK you obviously know more about data transfer than I. Are you in the IT/data trade?

This is the spec for the cable cablemonkey.co.uk supply http://www.cablemonkey.co.uk/i...;id_attachment=17897

Jinjuku posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

S3 posted:

I just installed a Cisco 2960 to replace my £15 TP Link switch. The improvement in SQ was dramatic. 

Now look here, S3. You can't just come on here saying you've bought a switch and it sounds better when everyone knows it can make no difference. Where is your scientific peer reviewed evidence? Where are the objective facts? Where are the Latin words that show you are really authoritative and demonstrate why anyone should pay you a blind bit of notice? You are clearly labouring under the misapprehension that hifi is about listening to music when in fact it's about dither offsets in your flange sprocket. Get a grip, man. 

Read the T.I. paper on Radiated Emissions of 10/100 LAN's. There's a clue in there for anyone who cares to expand their understanding. 

Er no thanks, I think I will give that (riveting a read as it may be) a miss.

Actually BTB, it is quite interesting and to my mind dispels some of the myths about Ethernet noise and cables, and lays down a factual framework on the subject, rather than the vague pseudo science and vague references to 'RFI' popular in some audio circles. I also find it of interest because Naim use TI DAC chips and some TI analogue stage op amps.

spacey posted:

OK you obviously know more about data transfer than I. Are you in the IT/data trade?

I am an ITC design engineer.

BTW that cable spec you reference looks fine, but if you will allow me to suggest a complete  over kill and uneccessary design for the vast majority of audiophile home audio setups.

if you were using 10Gbps links it would be of interest. Naim currently use 100Mbps links... i.e. A factor of a 100x slower.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

spacey posted:

OK you obviously know more about data transfer than I. Are you in the IT/data trade?

I am an ITC design engineer.

BTW that cable spec you reference looks fine, but if you will allow me to suggest a complete  over kill and uneccessary design for the vast majority of audiophile home audio setups.

if you were using 10Gbps links it would be of interest. Naim currently use 100Mbps links... i.e. A factor of a 100x slower.

 

That's cool - so you know your apples then ... I agree they're way way beyond standard spec. but for the £40(ish) for 2x5m and 2x1m and next day delivery its really a no brainer.

Yep can't argue with that..