Who prefers a non-naim streamer and why?

totemphile posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

totemphile posted:

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

I have been pondering about upgrading my mac mini solution to either a NDX/ND5XS+hugo or to look into other brands.

If you've got money to burn you can do that. Otherwise just add a Hugo to your Mac mini and be done. There are some here who actually prefer this combo to the NDS/555PS front end. One sold his NDS and went for the Hugo.

As always, of course, you pays your money and you takes your choice!

 

so you affirm that mac mini hugo/ around 2500 pounds combo can be better than nds-555ps/ around 16000 pounds combo?  come one, stop this nonsense.

Have you done the comparison? If not, your opinion counts for very little because it's just that, an opinion based on no empirical experience and restrained by your narrow mind. Use the search function on this forum and read through all the Hugo threads and you will find the forum members stating what I quoted.

For what it's worth, I did a direct comparison between my CDX2.2/nDAC/555PS and CDX2.2/Hugo and 2Qute on extended home demo and both exceeded the nDAC/555PS combo in terms of resolution by a great margin. The nDAC/555PS did have a slightly deeper bass, though, which I preferred. However, there was very little in it between them and overall the Chord DACs were in no way inferior, quite the opposite. It was imply a question of what bass presentation I preferred.  Just like some forum members prefer the nDAC/555PS to the NDS/555PS for that very same reason. If I had to make a decision today, I'd go for a Hugo or 2Qute. 

YMMV but your argument based on cost is a non-argument, not with the Chord DACs. Sorry.

 

cdx2 is not mac mini, so we are not in the same world.  For myself, on some material, i preferred my last cdx2 / xps2 to my twice more expensive nds/555 dr.  I did not said that cost is the only argument. I don't believe that.  But in general point of view, you pay more and you have more( in general). There are exceptions and nuances, of course.  And i can agree with you, ndac/555 ps can sound better , for some kind of music, than nds/555 ps.  

I have already heard the dave and found it very good. But found more prat with nds.  I will not say than nds is better.

But mac mini/ hugo is definitely not on the same league. Cdx2/ xps/ hugo is on the same league and it can sounding better on some aspects as nds/555 dr.

i want to add, mister totemphile, there is narrow and objective mind as me, and narrow and dirty ears, ....

Keler Pierre posted:

 

 

 

cdx2 is not mac mini, so we are not in the same world.  For myself, on some material, i preferred my last cdx2 / xps2 to my twice more expensive nds/555 dr.  I did not said that cost is the only argument. I don't believe that.  But in general point of view, you pay more and you have more( in general). There are exceptions and nuances, of course.  And i can agree with you, ndac/555 ps can sound better , for some kind of music, than nds/555 ps.  

I have already heard the dave and found it very good. But found more prat with nds.  I will not say than nds is better.

But mac mini/ hugo is definitely not on the same league. Cdx2/ xps/ hugo is on the same league and it can sounding better on some aspects as nds/555 dr.

Interesting that you say ndac/555 can sound better than nds/555 for some kinds of music. So there is something not neutral about one or other or both their presentation that makes a difference? Which suits what type of music? (And what source with ndac in this context?)

As far as Mac Mini is concerned, from what I tried and from what others have reported in this forum a lot would seem to depend on the precise implementation/setup, the MM itself simply being common the base unit. I have no opinion regarding NDS vs MM/Hugo as I have only heard the latter: I wouldn't be surprised to learn that NDS is better, being at least two steps up from the ND5XS+XP5XS which to me was clearly not as good sounding as my MM/Hugo implementation, but at the same time I concede that is not inevitably the case, despite the cost difference. 

There was a recent thread NDS vs Chord Dave, in which no-one seemed to have made that comparison, but you are saying that now you have? Any more on the difference other than PRaT?

Keler Pierre posted:

nds is 2012 product and the dac inside is of the nineties years... but the sound quality is fabulous. I have heard a lot streamers before purchasing it, like bryston, ps audio and simaudio... but preferred the nds. But i heard better too, than nds, like cad audio with trinity dac, full stack ddcs, métronome kallista...

But sorry, never heard a component priced at 3000 sounding better than one at 20000....

If you are right, a lot of people are stupid to pay for an nds/555dr. 

 

In this hobby a lot of decisions can be considered by others to be of questionable wisdom or value, whether getting hoodwinked by hype or following blind belief. The question of whether someone is stupid making a particular decision depends on what information was available to them at the time, including whether they had any possible reason to consider that the alternative might have been valid to consider, and indeed people might include other considerations in their decisions not just sound for pound. So, even if it were to be the case that a MM/Hugo setup does indeed sound better, the fact that someone pays for an NDS/555dr does not make them stupid, though conceivably they might prefer not to learn that they could have had something sounding better for a lot less.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

 

 

 

cdx2 is not mac mini, so we are not in the same world.  For myself, on some material, i preferred my last cdx2 / xps2 to my twice more expensive nds/555 dr.  I did not said that cost is the only argument. I don't believe that.  But in general point of view, you pay more and you have more( in general). There are exceptions and nuances, of course.  And i can agree with you, ndac/555 ps can sound better , for some kind of music, than nds/555 ps.  

I have already heard the dave and found it very good. But found more prat with nds.  I will not say than nds is better.

But mac mini/ hugo is definitely not on the same league. Cdx2/ xps/ hugo is on the same league and it can sounding better on some aspects as nds/555 dr.

Interesting that you say ndac/555 can sound better than nds/555 for some kinds of music. So there is something not neutral about one or other or both their presentation that makes a difference? Which suits what type of music? (And what source with ndac in this context?)

As far as Mac Mini is concerned, from what I tried and from what others have reported in this forum a lot would seem to depend on the precise implementation/setup, the MM itself simply being common the base unit. I have no opinion regarding NDS vs MM/Hugo as I have only heard the latter: I wouldn't be surprised to learn that NDS is better, being at least two steps up from the ND5XS+XP5XS which to me was clearly not as good sounding as my MM/Hugo implementation, but at the same time I concede that is not inevitably the case, despite the cost difference. 

There was a recent thread NDS vs Chord Dave, in which no-one seemed to have made that comparison, but you are saying that now you have? Any more on the difference other than PRaT?

Keler Pierre posted:

nds is 2012 product and the dac inside is of the nineties years... but the sound quality is fabulous. I have heard a lot streamers before purchasing it, like bryston, ps audio and simaudio... but preferred the nds. But i heard better too, than nds, like cad audio with trinity dac, full stack ddcs, métronome kallista...

But sorry, never heard a component priced at 3000 sounding better than one at 20000....

If you are right, a lot of people are stupid to pay for an nds/555dr. 

 

 

In this hobby a lot of decisions can be considered by others to be of questionable wisdom or value, whether getting hoodwinked by hype or following blind belief. The question of whether someone is stupid making a particular decision depends on what information was available to them at the time, including whether they had any possible reason to consider that the alternative might have been valid to consider, and indeed people might include other considerations in their decisions not just sound for pound. So, even if it were to be the case that a MM/Hugo setup does indeed sound better, the fact that someone pays for an NDS/555dr does not make them stupid, though conceivably they might prefer not to learn that they could have had something sounding better for a lot less.

 

I can easily conceive that a non naim digital source, for less money, can sound better than nds/555 dr. I have heard some competition from ps audio, sim audio, antipodes, ... at dealers shop in Paris. There is a lot high end hifi dealers in Paris....

But i have not heard all. The chord dave, heard in a hifi shop, sounded very good to me. But for prat and urgency of music, i preferred my last cdx2/xps2.  On that time, when i finally choosed the nds, i found the prat better on the cdx2/xps2. But today, with upgraded network ( linear ps, optical bridge...), i am very pleased with my nds.

It is not that i can't learn that a lot cheaper product than nds may be better than nds. I just can't believe that a superb source as nds/555 ps can sound worse than a product 6 times cheaper. I am interesting myself in hifi and sound quality since 16 years, and have never heard by myself or other people, dealers, reviewers... that a component like naim , with very good price/quality /reputation ratio can sound worse than a competitive product 6 times cheaper.

Sorry, i can believe. But perhaps mac mini / audio nirvana / chord hugo is a revelation, a killer product, that can even beat full stack dcs or esoteric combos....?

It also depends on how much time you can throw at the problem. 

Easier to buy top of the line Naim rather than audition 10 other alternatives.

I think we all understand where Pierre is coming from; it has its simple and common sense logic, and based upon my experience I would even say that most of the times it is correct.

However as an ex NDS/555PS owner I have had a chance to mess around with a few other products and in particular streamer and dac seperates, and indeed that is the path I am taking. In particular I demoed my NDS with a Metronome c8+ (being played via the NDS streamer) and I preferred by a small margin the NDS, however when I used a CD as a transport into the two dacs I preferred the Metronome (in particular with tube output - it has this choice). And finally when I added a microRendu streamer with Uptone LPS1 playing into the Metronome I preferred that to all of the other combos. The mR is a $600 product and the LPS a $400 one, but of course the Metronome c8+ is 16K€. However it shows how interesting and in my opinion even better it is to have a streamer (even relatively cheap but of good quality) with a decent dac instead of a streamer/dac combo. Then, on top of that, there are many by-products that can help clean and regenerate the signal (I am thinking USB in my case but it is true in general) that enhance the signal and hence the sound quite further, way beyond what I could "tweak" out of my NDS, IMHO of course.

Tom-in-Amsterdam posted:

I have been pondering about upgrading my mac mini solution to either a NDX/ND5XS+hugo or to look into other brands. As luck would have it, I missed an opportunity to buy some nice vivid audio K1's, but the seller showcased the Linn Akurate DS and I must say I was impressed.

Sound wise I could not make a comparison as for too many variables (different speakers, pre etc) but the ease of use was hard to ignore. Tidal was easy, space optimisation and rumours of having Roon integrated soon. 

Having read quite a bit into Linn ADS and KLS Klimax I'm getting a bit curious. Any naimees that use these streamers?

 

I have considered Naim and Linn streaming solutions (but never actually demoed Linn products) before buying a Naim DAC and a SN2 a few years ago. I do not know whether NDX/ND5XS would be an upgrade against your current Mac Mini + Gustard solution and in which sense. Are you striving for better sound quality? Are you looking for a solution for multi-room replay? If not, I do not see the point of moving to a LAN streaming solution. In your situation, my upgrade strategy would be to keep source and DAC separated and consider improving either the Mac Mini + Gustard combo, the DAC or both. 

sbilotta posted:

I think we all understand where Pierre is coming from; it has its simple and common sense logic, and based upon my experience I would even say that most of the times it is correct.

However as an ex NDS/555PS owner I have had a chance to mess around with a few other products and in particular streamer and dac seperates, and indeed that is the path I am taking. In particular I demoed my NDS with a Metronome c8+ (being played via the NDS streamer) and I preferred by a small margin the NDS, however when I used a CD as a transport into the two dacs I preferred the Metronome (in particular with tube output - it has this choice). And finally when I added a microRendu streamer with Uptone LPS1 playing into the Metronome I preferred that to all of the other combos. The mR is a $600 product and the LPS a $400 one, but of course the Metronome c8+ is 16K€. However it shows how interesting and in my opinion even better it is to have a streamer (even relatively cheap but of good quality) with a decent dac instead of a streamer/dac combo. Then, on top of that, there are many by-products that can help clean and regenerate the signal (I am thinking USB in my case but it is true in general) that enhance the signal and hence the sound quite further, way beyond what I could "tweak" out of my NDS, IMHO of course.

 

i can not not be agree with you. All you said makes sense and you are comparing products that can be compared.  micro rendu/lps/ métronome c8 vs nds/555 dr( 17 k combo vs 20 k combo).

You prefer the sound of metronome, and it is your preference.

Some prefer tube cd players, other big dacs into computers.  There is a lot of other digital sources than nds, some with different sound quality, some better etc.... But you have not said a 3k source can be better than a 20k naim source. 

Keler Pierre posted:

If you are right, a lot of people are stupid to pay for an nds/555dr. 

Let's not kid ourselves, there are many aspects involved in people choosing hifi components and they don't all have to do with sound. The amount of times people have come on here, asked for advice and basically decided based on feedback what to buy, without listening to the alternatives, demonstrates that, yes, there are a lot of silly people out there buying hifi components stupidly. Also, don't underestimate the aspect of people wanting to feel good about their hifi, what better way to have a really expensive hifi system to show off to your fellow forum members and friends. Or to just feel good about yourself. Hifi is a status symbol, just like any other material purchase. Bottom line? That's pretty stupid behaviour. I come back to what I said in an earlier post, to enjoy music a simple system suffices. Anything above that, purchasing decisions are influenced by a whole range of factors. If that makes people happy, fine, but let's at least be honest about it.

MangoMonkey posted:

It also depends on how much time you can throw at the problem. 

Easier to buy top of the line Naim rather than audition 10 other alternatives.

You are right. Personally i have not bought first the nds, closed eyes.  I had cd5x and cdx2/xps2 cd players before, and wanting naim source for its prat and urgency of music. So yes, i was open more to naim source.

Before buying such a costly product, i heard before competition from ps audio and simaudio, and chord dave to end. I could have bought dave but i found it a bit less involving than my cdx2/xps2.

So i interested myself in other alternatives, and have read a lot too. But sorry to tell that, naim is very special for prat and urgency of music, and for now, i have heard only one competitor for that: trinity dac. but very expensive.

To end , i doubt that yourself you have listened to 10 alternatives before choosing your source. It is materially difficult....

I listen to digital music through a Windows10 Laptop running Fidelizer , connected by USB to Intona and Chord Hugo. I couldn't be happier as I can stream my own music collection + Tidal and Qobuz + iRadio. The only bugger is the USB cable between the Laptop and Intona but I can live with that.  

This setup offer a different sound quality, close to vinyl or FM  but is very affordable.

Keler Pierre posted:

cdx2 is not mac mini, so we are not in the same world. 

I have already heard the dave and found it very good. But found more prat with nds.  I will not say than nds is better.

But mac mini/ hugo is definitely not on the same league. Cdx2/ xps/ hugo is on the same league and it can sounding better on some aspects as nds/555 dr.

By all accounts here on the forum Mac mini is a top level bit stream provider. Personally, I use a Dr. Gert Volk modified Sonos Connect as a second digital source and I can't distinguish between that and my CDX2.2 when feeding the nDAC/555PS. That's a €649 source against a €5748 digital source. In all fairness, I should add that when I compared the CD5XS vs. CDX2.2 into plain nDAC at a dealer many years ago I could hear a slight difference. However, I have never been able to replicate this difference with the Dr. Gert Volk Sonos and CDX2.2 at home, though. Begs the question whether this difference was simply down to induced buyer's expectation, i.e. me thinking wow a CDX2.2, surely this must sound better.

With regards to the Chord Dave DAC, one forum member with a fully active 500 system preferred the Hugo to Dave. Go figure. 

few years before i had rega jupiter, 2 k cd player. I could live with it with no problem, the sound was very natural and dynamic  enough.

i could also bought chord dave dac, twice cheaper than nds/555 dr. But i put my preference to naim...it is just my personal preference for the type of sound.  Before i had cdx2/xps2 , and sometimes i think it could be enough for me.

Keler Pierre posted:

To end , i doubt that yourself you have listened to 10 alternatives before choosing your source. It is materially difficult....

MangoMonkey has listened to pretty much all Naim gear up and down the Naim chain at home or dealers. His name should really be NaimMonkey 

sbilotta posted:

I think we all understand where Pierre is coming from; it has its simple and common sense logic, and based upon my experience I would even say that most of the times it is correct.

However as an ex NDS/555PS owner I have had a chance to mess around with a few other products and in particular streamer and dac seperates, and indeed that is the path I am taking. In particular I demoed my NDS with a Metronome c8+ (being played via the NDS streamer) and I preferred by a small margin the NDS, however when I used a CD as a transport into the two dacs I preferred the Metronome (in particular with tube output - it has this choice). And finally when I added a microRendu streamer with Uptone LPS1 playing into the Metronome I preferred that to all of the other combos. The mR is a $600 product and the LPS a $400 one, but of course the Metronome c8+ is 16K€. However it shows how interesting and in my opinion even better it is to have a streamer (even relatively cheap but of good quality) with a decent dac instead of a streamer/dac combo. Then, on top of that, there are many by-products that can help clean and regenerate the signal (I am thinking USB in my case but it is true in general) that enhance the signal and hence the sound quite further, way beyond what I could "tweak" out of my NDS, IMHO of course.

 

the dac is the most important in a digital source, so your considerations are logical when you refer to micro rendu/ lps with 16 k metronome dac.   But perhaps if you try melco nas/ server with the same metronome dac, perhaps the sound will be better.

I personally improved my nas/ server with an uptone js2 ps, and found a big improvement in sound quality. So a dac itself may not be enough, alone, to explain differences in sound quality.

Hi,

We did very recently a comparison between various streamers with some friends : nd5xs , Sonore Microrendu with LPS-1 power supply, and
the belcanto refstream
All those streamers were feeding my trusty Chord Hugo ( rest of the setup was : atc scm 19 with SN2 or 32.5-160). Since the hugo only has a micro usb input and usb is not the best input, we had to use a usb-spdif interface. (singfer f-1) with the microrendu. This little streamer is quite impressive, with a very natural sounding musical reproduction. In comparison nd5xs
appeared a little bit edgy at times.

As impressive as the microrendu was, it was simply no match to the belcanto refstream. This little gem managed to extract way more informations, than the others
while keeping everything smooth and natural sounding. A buddy called the sound "liquid". It would be very interesting to compare the resfstream to the nds as a transport. I'm not sure nds would come out on top

Keler Pierre posted:

MangoMonkey posted:

It also depends on how much time you can throw at the problem. 

Easier to buy top of the line Naim rather than audition 10 other alternatives.

You are right. Personally i have not bought first the nds, closed eyes.  I had cd5x and cdx2/xps2 cd players before, and wanting naim source for its prat and urgency of music. So yes, i was open more to naim source.

Before buying such a costly product, i heard before competition from ps audio and simaudio, and chord dave to end. I could have bought dave but i found it a bit less involving than my cdx2/xps2.

So i interested myself in other alternatives, and have read a lot too. But sorry to tell that, naim is very special for prat and urgency of music, and for now, i have heard only one competitor for that: trinity dac. but very expensive.

To end , i doubt that yourself you have listened to 10 alternatives before choosing your source. It is materially difficult....

On the contrary - I just bought the NDS/555DR blind. :-)

in retrospect, i should have spent more time fixing network issues - I had to do that anyway, even with the NDS. I just assumed that the optical isolator inside the NDS will take care of things. Was I wrong!

With the UnitiCore promising better results with the digital out into the Dac section, streamers are sort of dead, imho ... at least at the hhigh end ..

my reason back then in going for the nds vs the UnitiQute/DAC combo was reduced box count....

MangoMonkey posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

MangoMonkey posted:

It also depends on how much time you can throw at the problem. 

Easier to buy top of the line Naim rather than audition 10 other alternatives.

You are right. Personally i have not bought first the nds, closed eyes.  I had cd5x and cdx2/xps2 cd players before, and wanting naim source for its prat and urgency of music. So yes, i was open more to naim source.

Before buying such a costly product, i heard before competition from ps audio and simaudio, and chord dave to end. I could have bought dave but i found it a bit less involving than my cdx2/xps2.

So i interested myself in other alternatives, and have read a lot too. But sorry to tell that, naim is very special for prat and urgency of music, and for now, i have heard only one competitor for that: trinity dac. but very expensive.

To end , i doubt that yourself you have listened to 10 alternatives before choosing your source. It is materially difficult....

On the contrary - I just bought the NDS/555DR blind. :-)

in retrospect, i should have spent more time fixing network issues - I had to do that anyway, even with the NDS. I just assumed that the optical isolator inside the NDS will take care of things. Was I wrong!

With the UnitiCore promising better results with the digital out into the Dac section, streamers are sort of dead, imho ... at least at the hhigh end ..

my reason back then in going for the nds vs the UnitiQute/DAC combo was reduced box count....

ok, so you bought quietly closed eyes the nds/555 dr, as myself. And like you, upgrading my network with isolation and linear ps improved a lot.

But you say "uniticore promising better results in digital out":  for now i have found nobody in naim forum that found core/dac in spdif better sounding than nds/555 dr/ unitserve or core in ethernet mode. But maybe it will be the case, i am very curious too.

Maybe you are right, streamers like nds will be obsolete in the future : today, the majority of the best digital /streaming sources are servers/ nas with usb dacs, like melco, cad audio, aurender with high end usb dacs like dave, meitner, msb, dcs....

Dig. Out > upnp was a comment from folks at pro musica in Chicago. Apparently they've sold 40 UnitiCores already.

Having said that, its possible they're networking sucked really bad which made the dig out so much better 

i haven't heard anyone compare USB Into NDS compared to the digital in / that would be the litimus test of how much better things are..

ive managed to make my upnp sound as good as the USB at this point...

MangoMonkey posted:

Dig. Out > upnp was a comment from folks at pro musica in Chicago. Apparently they've sold 40 UnitiCores already.

Having said that, its possible they're networking sucked really bad which made the dig out so much better 

i haven't heard anyone compare USB Into NDS compared to the digital in / that would be the litimus test of how much better things are..

ive managed to make my upnp sound as good as the USB at this point...

i hope we will be more informed of that in the next weeks or months...For now a lot of members were complaining about metadata and ripping quality of the core. I hope now all is solved.... you have a uniticore ?  same problems?

I don't have a UnitiCore. 

[@mention:4804681823084713] understood and done. Thank you.

milesT posted:

hello Naimers, my first post - so: hello and thanks for having me here

I read this post with great interest. I am the lucky owner of a Chord Dave fed by a music server. I'm looking to get into the Naim world with a good preamp. I have ATC SCM 50 active speakers. 

Would a 252 or 552 be a good choice? what I'm after is the Naim sound signature and I read that the pre is a central part of the system to get it.

(not sure it's the right place but since I have a non Naim streamer...)

Perhaps is the Hi-Fi Corner more suitable for receiving advice on amplification options? By the way, what is the music server you use to feed the Dave? Thanks, nbpf

I've been through a few solutions. The only constant has been the nDac which I really like. So I started with a UnitiQute, I liked some things about it - but ultimately the app was too annoying and I stopped listening to music. I switched to Sonos - again feeding the nDac - the software was much, much better. It sounded ok, couldnt listen to my hi-def albums, but at least I was listening to music. I stuck with this for a number of years. Then earlier this year I switched to a HifiBerry with the digi + pro board. I couldn't be happier. The little box is rock solid and fast. I love, love, love the interface on my ipad, phone and computer. And the biggest test - I am listening to significantly more music! I had been saving for an NDX, I have a Muso in my apartment and the app has definitely improved. I had tried Roon on a mac mini I had lying around - loved it so much that it was a no brainer to spend the $200 (about 100 pounds) to try the hifi-berry. 

I keep checking the Naim Forums - hoping for an announcement the the ND5XS is now a Roon endpoint or even better that a new box has been released that is just and music renderer (and of course a roon endpoint). One day I hope!!

what psu are you using for the hifiberry?

What software to control it from your mobile device?