DIY LP12 Servicing.

mmm - with over £20,000 of turntable to play with I'd much sooner use a Kradle - they're not that expensive and fit the deck perfectly and securely facilitating easy removal of the bottom plate. I've used chairs, speaker stands in the past on my old Ariston RD80 and found them a real fiddle. Just personal experience but I tend to use the same gear the dealers use and was taught by one very good dealer who shall remain nameless - or was that Naimless? Peter Swain has some excellent guides by the way - these offer more advice that you'll probably ever need.

Richard Dane posted:

Richard, if you wish to to take this off forum then by all means do so.  I guess it's your thread so you can take it any way you want, but maybe it's time I moved it to the padded cell if you've exhausted the actual topic at hand.

As for the rule in question, I've been moderating this forum on and off for many years now and I see what goes on in the background.  Everyone wants a piece of this forum and especially a way in to solicit or market to the membership here.  Part of my role is to safeguard the membership which is why certain rules exist - they may not at first look important or may look petty to you, but trust me, they are very necessary to ensure this forum remains a safe place for members, and free of unwanted commercial solicitation.  There's a lot of work that goes on behind the scenes every day to keep it that way, so you're just going to have to take me at my word on this.

No problem Richard, I understand the good intention but it does tend to end up getting a bit weird, silly and paranoid with the language used or evolved to get around the rules.

Regarding protecting users from unwanted commercial solicitation, I have experience of this on these very forums. Some time ago when discussing RCM,s I received an email from a Naim/Linn dealer offering to sell me one. When I asked why he thought I might be interested he replied that he had been reading my comments on the Naim forum. I was not best pleased to find that my comments were being covertly follows by said dealer. That dealer had also poorly serviced my LP12 on previous occasions despite being a longstanding loyal customer.

It is mainly as a result of my disillusionment with the standard of that dealer service, there not being another nearby, I dont have my own transport that I am considering becoming more self reliant ie diy.

I'm aware that this is drifting away from the topic and wont mention it again, move or close tho thread as you feel appropriate.

Ravenswood10 posted:

mmm - with over £20,000 of turntable to play with I'd much sooner use a Kradle - they're not that expensive and fit the deck perfectly and securely facilitating easy removal of the bottom plate. I've used chairs, speaker stands in the past on my old Ariston RD80 and found them a real fiddle. Just personal experience 

Yes, over the years occasionally I've had to use alternatives to the factory jig and I have to say nothing has been as good or safe! 

Next to rigidity, the ability to clamp the plinth safely is just so important IMHO. I like the safety and security for sure, and whilst I used an old Audiotech stand recently at a client's house when visiting him, I was relieved to have a second pair of hands available to help and ensure the plinth did not move during various stages of the set-up process.

Additionally, as a preference I like to set-up on a rigid surface like a kitchen worktop rather than a table. If it has to be a table, then the heavier and more rigid the better.

Whether you have a deck like Ravenswood or like this one pictured below I'm working on today, a proper factory jig is such a worthwhile investment. 

KR, Peter

Richard, your example is a reason why members email addresses are not visible to other members and why I ask members not to post their e-mail address either in visible sections of their profile or in their posts. If I see a visible e-mail then I delete it.

It's also why there's no private messaging here.  

I'd be interested in knowing the details of what happened - and also very curious as to how the dealer got your email address.  If you like, please e-mail me care of the factory - info (at) naimaudio.com. 

Yes, I think I would feel more confident with the proper jig if/when one becomes available.

As mentioned earlier I did try one of the unofficial (high five kradle I think its called) jigs sold on auction sites, but it was terrible, I returned it for a refund and explained why it was useless.

I suppose one could be fabricated from welded square steel if anyone is able to provide exact measurements for the official Kradle.

Fatcat,

My understanding is that LP12 should be adjusted for level at the plinth. If suspension set up is correct then the platter should be level corresponding to the plinth?

Richard 2000 posted:

Yes, I think I would feel more confident with the proper jig if/when one becomes available.

As mentioned earlier I did try one of the unofficial (high five kradle I think its called) jigs sold on auction sites, but it was terrible, I returned it for a refund and explained why it was useless.

 

My understanding is that LP12 should be adjusted for level at the plinth. If suspension set up is correct then the platter should be level corresponding to the plinth?

Regarding levelling; that is correct Richard2000 and I hope you do email RichardD on the subject of "following".

KR,

Peter

Peter thank you, I have emailed RD.

With regard to levelling. The last time my LP12 was serviced It was returned back to me but the dealer did not re-install it saying he was en route somewhere else and just dropping it off. I set about re-installing and setting up myself (as I had become used to doing due mainly to my increasing lack of confidence in the dealers service). I discovered on levelling the plinth that the platter was off and vice versa. I telephoned the dealer who told me the deck had been serviced and suspension set up fine suggesting I just set level on the platter by adjusting the Trampolin and not to worry about the plinth then being off!

On other "services" or upgrades the deck often was returned to me with issues including a blown drive motor, bent lift/lower and greasy fingerprints over plinth and platter that I had to clean. In every case the dealer could not satisfactorily explain why my deck was returned from "servicing" with such issues and generally fobbed me off whilst charging me more money in the case of the blown motor to put right.

General advice here Richard:

If you really feel that something is wrong and you feel the dealer is fobbing you off then please email the manufacturer's help/customer advice department. This should initiate 

a pretty swift and appropriate response!

On the subject of Leveling an LP12 for end-users; Ensure the surface you place the LP12 on is level, then place the deck into position and also fit the platter as you want a realistic mass acting on the support. (I'll come on to lid fitment later).

Level on the plinth first. Use a conventional 6 inch/15cm level abnd the more accurate the better. It's best not to adjust level using the Trampolin feet if possible, leave them screwed in and double check/adjust the support if required (removing the outer platter again before you start!). It also won't correct a fundamental problem like this anyway, just mask it a little!

Once you feel the plinth (with the outer platter in place again is level), please check the platter with an accurate but low mass round bubble level or similar. If this is not level as well, then there are several possible reasons; Suspension is not level/adjustment out. Plinth warped, sub-chassis warped (happens more frequently on early LP12s with spot-welded sub-chassis in particular).

If you find there is still a level problem between the two, then I suggest take pictures and consult with the servicing dealer or manufacturer for appropriate action. Failing this, posting pictures here and elsewhere will initiate comments and help I'm sure.

It is worth saying that if you have an old plinth that is warped and you wish to continue to use it, which we all appreciate is sub-optimal, then the platter level (hence suspension leveling) needs to take precedence over the plinth. Not ideal, but a pragmatic position to take if the warp is not too bad and you do not wish to incur the expense of a new plinth.

Best regards,

Peter

Thanks Peter, with regard to the motor I did complain to Linn HQ but the response was disappointing and appeared to be more focused on covering for the shortcomings of the dealer and his excuses. Like I said when I did report issues to the servicing dealer I didn't get very helpful responses and was fobbed off. Never mind its in the past and I've chalked it up to experience. Hence my consideration of diy or finding a more competent dealer conveniently located.

Thanks for the extra tips re levelling.

Perhaps in due course I might contact you for service support either in a diy capacity or to do servicing, but Cymbiosis is a considerable distance from me.

Tony2011 posted:

The LP12 is the Porsche 911 of the turntable world. It keeps reinventing  itself with tweaks and small upgrades that keep deviding  opinions right, left and centre. 

Peter must have one hell of a thick skin built through  out the years to protect him from the flack he gets defending the merits of the LP12 from people who don't seem to get what the LP12 is all about. Kudos to him.

I am intrigued by the comment about"....people who don't seem to get what the LP12 is about".

This to me implies a mystique, suggesting that the LP12 is in some way unique, and that it has attributes that are not purely related to the quality of sound; unless unless of course you are suggesting that no other turntable can match the LP12's sound quality, in which case I would suggest that you might be on shaky ground.

Although I don't own an LP12, I have no doubt that it can be an excellent turntable, and a match for many alternative turntables out there. However, for me any suggestion of a mystique of some sort is misleading. All that matters to me is how good a vinyl playing system sounds. There should really be nothing else "to get". 

Not quite a service but I just changed a AT 0C9 back to my old Dyna 10x5 first successful cart change I'm very pleased with myself.

What was the thinking behind the change?

The OC9 stylus broke off somehow but even if it hadn't  I would have changed it back anyway as although I liked its presentation the very fine cantilever/stylus needed cleaning every few records and was not very tolerant of some of the newer vinyl I own where as the 10x5 sounds good with pretty much everything and isn't  such a dust magnet. 

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

Peter thank you, I have emailed RD.

With regard to levelling. The last time my LP12 was serviced It was returned back to me but the dealer did not re-install it saying he was en route somewhere else and just dropping it off. I set about re-installing and setting up myself (as I had become used to doing due mainly to my increasing lack of confidence in the dealers service). I discovered on levelling the plinth that the platter was off and vice versa. I telephoned the dealer who told me the deck had been serviced and suspension set up fine suggesting I just set level on the platter by adjusting the Trampolin and not to worry about the plinth then being off!

On other "services" or upgrades the deck often was returned to me with issues including a blown drive motor, bent lift/lower and greasy fingerprints over plinth and platter that I had to clean. In every case the dealer could not satisfactorily explain why my deck was returned from "servicing" with such issues and generally fobbed me off whilst charging me more money in the case of the blown motor to put right.

Richard

I think you’re being a bit harsh on the dealer with regards to the platter not being parallel with the plinth. (Although generally he doesn’t seem to be very good). If he’s changed the oil, the belt then re-adjusted the suspension. (Presumably he’d listen and confirm it’s OK)  I personally can’t see a problem if the platter and plinth aren’t parallel. Did you listen to the turntable, how did it sound.

A couple of years ago, the power supply for my mantra died, while I was sorting out a repair (replaced the PCB in the MB6 with a Hercules 2) I took the opportunity to set the platter parallel with the plinth. When I hooked up the new power supply I was not a happy bunny, all the instruments sounded broke, I remember my wife asked while listening to a Doobie Brothers album, if Les Dawson was playing keyboards. I wasted a lot of time setting the speed as accurately as I could until I remembered I’d re-aligned the suspension. When I returned the suspension to it’s original geometry (high at the arm, low at the motor), it sounded superb.

Reading Peters excellent set up guide and a thread concerning the LP12’s springs, which highlight the major inconsistencies in spring strength and dimension, it seems inconceivable that simply setting the platter and plinth level will result in optimal suspension operation.

The good news is, when you get your jig, you’re going to get hours and hours of fun, finding out what is fact and what is fiction.

I have performed two bits of replacement surgery on my 34 year Sondek. Neither involved motors, springs, bearings, arm/cartridges, top-plates, plinths or subchassis........you can take a guess, there ain't much else left. 

They were straightforward and could even be done by a numpty Sparkie  (i.e. me).....but the real servicing was done by Phil Marsh, and a very fine job he did....oooh, polished and shiny!

He does mine too. Super work.

fatcat posted:

A couple of years ago, the power supply for my mantra died, while I was sorting out a repair (replaced the PCB in the MB6 with a Hercules 2) I took the opportunity to set the platter parallel with the plinth. When I hooked up the new power supply I was not a happy bunny, all the instruments sounded broke, I remember my wife asked while listening to a Doobie Brothers album, if Les Dawson was playing keyboards. I wasted a lot of time setting the speed as accurately as I could until I remembered I’d re-aligned the suspension. When I returned the suspension to it’s original geometry (high at the arm, low at the motor), it sounded superb.

Reading Peters excellent set up guide and a thread concerning the LP12’s springs, which highlight the major inconsistencies in spring strength and dimension, it seems inconceivable that simply setting the platter and plinth level will result in optimal suspension operation.

The good news is, when you get your jig, you’re going to get hours and hours of fun, finding out what is fact and what is fiction.

From much reading on the blue place, I understand that folks like Peter have a box of assorted springs so can mix and match to get the best bounce. 

On the subject of the Manticore Mantra, about a decade ago I was in a hotel bar in France, chatting to the only other Englishman there. Turned out we worked for the same company (and I believe we still do...), and indeed were actually on the same project. After several beers we got around to hifi, and he let slip that he was the designer of said Mantra - yep. Doug Hewett in person!

Hmack posted:

Tony2011 posted:

The LP12 is the Porsche 911 of the turntable world. It keeps reinventing  itself with tweaks and small upgrades that keep deviding  opinions right, left and centre. 

Peter must have one hell of a thick skin built through  out the years to protect him from the flack he gets defending the merits of the LP12 from people who don't seem to get what the LP12 is all about. Kudos to him.

I am intrigued by the comment about"....people who don't seem to get what the LP12 is about".

This to me implies a mystique, suggesting that the LP12 is in some way unique, and that it has attributes that are not purely related to the quality of sound; unless unless of course you are suggesting that no other turntable can match the LP12's sound quality, in which case I would suggest that you might be on shaky ground.

Although I don't own an LP12, I have no doubt that it can be an excellent turntable, and a match for many alternative turntables out there. However, for me any suggestion of a mystique of some sort is misleading. All that matters to me is how good a vinyl playing system sounds. There should really be nothing else "to get". 

Oh my, let the can of worms be opened.........

fatcat posted:

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

Peter thank you, I have emailed RD.

With regard to levelling. The last time my LP12 was serviced It was returned back to me but the dealer did not re-install it saying he was en route somewhere else and just dropping it off. I set about re-installing and setting up myself (as I had become used to doing due mainly to my increasing lack of confidence in the dealers service). I discovered on levelling the plinth that the platter was off and vice versa. I telephoned the dealer who told me the deck had been serviced and suspension set up fine suggesting I just set level on the platter by adjusting the Trampolin and not to worry about the plinth then being off!

On other "services" or upgrades the deck often was returned to me with issues including a blown drive motor, bent lift/lower and greasy fingerprints over plinth and platter that I had to clean. In every case the dealer could not satisfactorily explain why my deck was returned from "servicing" with such issues and generally fobbed me off whilst charging me more money in the case of the blown motor to put right.

Richard

I think you’re being a bit harsh on the dealer with regards to the platter not being parallel with the plinth. (Although generally he doesn’t seem to be very good). If he’s changed the oil, the belt then re-adjusted the suspension. (Presumably he’d listen and confirm it’s OK)  I personally can’t see a problem if the platter and plinth aren’t parallel. Did you listen to the turntable, how did it sound.

A couple of years ago, the power supply for my mantra died, while I was sorting out a repair (replaced the PCB in the MB6 with a Hercules 2) I took the opportunity to set the platter parallel with the plinth. When I hooked up the new power supply I was not a happy bunny, all the instruments sounded broke, I remember my wife asked while listening to a Doobie Brothers album, if Les Dawson was playing keyboards. I wasted a lot of time setting the speed as accurately as I could until I remembered I’d re-aligned the suspension. When I returned the suspension to it’s original geometry (high at the arm, low at the motor), it sounded superb.

Reading Peters excellent set up guide and a thread concerning the LP12’s springs, which highlight the major inconsistencies in spring strength and dimension, it seems inconceivable that simply setting the platter and plinth level will result in optimal suspension operation.

The good news is, when you get your jig, you’re going to get hours and hours of fun, finding out what is fact and what is fiction.

See Peters comments above re levelling. Both platter and plinth should be level for optimum on an LP12. I am aware of the advice re spring inconsistency but this as I understand it is more about inconsistency of tension or springiness between individual springs and identifying the differences between them and using each one more effectively to make set up easier rather than the inconsistency between the springs affecting performance per se.

Trust me I am not being hard on the dealer, the issues I mentioned were just a few examples of many, the platter levelling is an illustration of the disinterested and abrupt attitude when unless my plinth is warped, as explained above, the set up was sub optimal.

fatcat posted:

 

Reading Peters excellent set up guide and a thread concerning the LP12’s springs, which highlight the major inconsistencies in spring strength and dimension, it seems inconceivable that simply setting the platter and plinth level will result in optimal suspension operation.

The good news is, when you get your jig, you’re going to get hours and hours of fun, finding out what is fact and what is fiction.

Correct, it's just one of many things that need to be right of course as I have repeatedly said. Of course pictures help

KR

Peter

I recently read a review of the Khan top plate and was interested to note according to the review that the Khan top plate is tapped to take studs instead of the standard suspension bolts and this arrangement it is claimed provides for better accuracy of the suspension mounting stud to the perpendicular.

This got me thinking, if this helps make suspension set up easier and less fiddly, having a Khan top plate fitted (assuming one likes how it sounds) could be a helpful aid and prelude to going the diy route.

Any thoughts?

That's my experience...no stainless steel top plate to have to fiddle with and the Keel also makes life considerably easier too as does the Radikal motor. The Tangerine audio top plate my also be worth trying although I won't go as far as the Stiletto as I like my wood

Does the improved accuracy of the studs remove the need for a Linn T Bar/spirit level? I guess one isn't meant to bend the studs like the Linn bolts to achieve level.

Also wondering if having a Keel, Kore, Tiger Paw etc sub chassis removes the need for a Kinky to adjust arm geometry.

Dreadatthecontrols posted:

Does the improved accuracy of the studs remove the need for a Linn T Bar/spirit level? I guess one isn't meant to bend the studs like the Linn bolts to achieve level.

Also wondering if having a Keel, Kore, Tiger Paw etc sub chassis removes the need for a Kinky to adjust arm geometry.

On the 1st point; there's no need to adjust the studs on the TP as it is flat and is secured into place avoiding rattles with six different fixing points. The Linn SS top-plate by contrast is deliberately bent and needs to be pulled up flat against the plinth with either two or three fixing points (dependent on top-plate age) so it is the stressed junction between the top-pate and the plinth that should mean there are no rattles, this is crucial. But, and it's a big but.... This comes down to how the top-plate is bent and fitted, hence the quality of the contact. Remember, rattles anywhere, but particularly in the motor corner degrade the sound. Additionally, any glue/foam strips, Bluetak placed between the top-plate and plinth at this junction to stop rattles also degrades the sound. Yes the T-Bar needs to be used with the SS top-plate.

BTW. Over-tightening the SS top-plate or the TP top-plate also degrades the sound! With both top-plates you want the minimum tightening of the fixings (just enough) to stop the rattles for the best sound. The effect of over-tightening either top-plate is to kill the musicality and tune and the TP in particular becomes thick and ploddy! This IMHO explains the variable reviews on the TP.

Second point; Yes. No need and no adjustment possible with the Kore and Keel and unnecessary with the TP if you chose to use one.

KR

Peter

Suzy Wong posted:

fatcat posted:

A couple of years ago, the power supply for my mantra died, while I was sorting out a repair (replaced the PCB in the MB6 with a Hercules 2) I took the opportunity to set the platter parallel with the plinth. When I hooked up the new power supply I was not a happy bunny, all the instruments sounded broke, I remember my wife asked while listening to a Doobie Brothers album, if Les Dawson was playing keyboards. I wasted a lot of time setting the speed as accurately as I could until I remembered I’d re-aligned the suspension. When I returned the suspension to it’s original geometry (high at the arm, low at the motor), it sounded superb.

Reading Peters excellent set up guide and a thread concerning the LP12’s springs, which highlight the major inconsistencies in spring strength and dimension, it seems inconceivable that simply setting the platter and plinth level will result in optimal suspension operation.

The good news is, when you get your jig, you’re going to get hours and hours of fun, finding out what is fact and what is fiction.

From much reading on the blue place, I understand that folks like Peter have a box of assorted springs so can mix and match to get the best bounce. 

On the subject of the Manticore Mantra, about a decade ago I was in a hotel bar in France, chatting to the only other Englishman there. Turned out we worked for the same company (and I believe we still do...), and indeed were actually on the same project. After several beers we got around to hifi, and he let slip that he was the designer of said Mantra - yep. Doug Hewett in person!

My son still has my old Mantra with an RB300. I powered the motor on it with a valhalla which is still going strong. Although i don't think it's getting much use at the moment.

Good deck.