Proac D18s Out - What to allow in for a replacement?

Spendor d7,3.5k new.

Sorry to sound like proac fanboi, but have you tried the Naim DAC in the mix instead of the DACv1?

Harbeth shl5+. Not bright at all. 

If you are seeking a less bright, fuller midrange and more natural sound, I would second the suggestion of the Harbeth SHL5 Plus. Splendid speakers in my book though the speakers need quite a bit of space to sound good (approximately 850 mm clear distance from front wall to rear of speakers in my room, considerable distance from side walls). The treble of the Harbeth is usually sweeter and less bright or piercing than the Proac with an overall fuller and more natural presentation.

Have a listen to quad s4 or s5. The smaller ones may work better in 3x6m. Do you need them to fire across or down the space?

For me the quads handily outclassed focal 936 and all the proacs  I've heard (including d18), sounding more natural, even and realistic with exceptionally rich tonal palette and above average harmonics. 

Have you tried ProAc D20R. The ribbon tweeter in sublime IMHO and is in no way bright or harsh sounding. 

But you may well wish to strongly move away from ProAc at all cost, unless I misread your post.

In my experience, and in MY opinion ONLY. (I have to put that in there.) From your shortlist, I would say you're probably heading in the wrong direction if you want to avert brightness, or a tendency to brightness.

Neat and Focal speakers are good sounding, but everyone I have ever heard had a tendency to be on the hot side of neutral. Same goes for Kudos. They're exciting sounding initially, but can become tiring after a while.

Harbeth and Sonus Faber speakers are nice, they are smooth sounding and have a warmish overall balance to them. They may be just what you're looking for,  just not my cup of tea. 

To my ears, the speakers lately that have stood out for me, and impressed at consumer shows and in dealers showrooms are ATC, Dynaudio, Spendor D series, and Atohm. They are all excellent in detail retrieval, but do not sound harsh or grainy in any way. Excellent sounding speakers!

Interesting stuff.  The Harbeths appear to fit the bill, but the space they need around them to operate optimally, might be just beyond what I can afford them at the moment.  

The quad idea is interesting.  Given their price, it would indeed be 'handy' if they could out perform the competition mentioned.  ;-)

Spendor A7 - heard the A6s a while ago on the end of a Cyrus system comparable to that I was running at the time.  I wasn't particularly inspired by them.  The 7s may well be in a different leagues though.  If the opportunity arises will definitely give them a listen, but I think for starters I will explore the sub £3k level.

One other thought that may influence what is seen as suitable is the typical listening volume.  While the system gets used for back ground listening, and TV / films etc, when going in to a good session, the volume dial on the SN2 will typically sit between 10 and 11 o'clock.  I would say this is just outside of the Proacs comfort zone, they seem happier around 9, but I like to feel the music as well as hear it.  It's not like they are falling apart at that level, but tonally the brightness becomes more notable at the louder end of the scale in my view.  I could do with something that's more comfortable a higher volumes, even if that's at the expense of being less involving at lower levels.

If you use the SN2 at 11 o'clock on the volume knob it's no wonder the speakers are sounding harsh. You may well end up damaging your hearing at that volume. Your neighbours must be very tolerant. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

If you use the SN2 at 11 o'clock on the volume knob it's no wonder the speakers are sounding harsh. You may well end up damaging your hearing at that volume. Your neighbours must be very tolerant. 

It really depends on the recording HH.  11 o'clock is reserved for certain albums where they are unusually quiet and often all the better for it, or moments of rock madness perhaps. 10 o'clock or thereabouts is pretty typical though, and still I suspect higher than is typical for many.  Or maybe not, no idea.  Hearing seems fine, and I've done it this way for many many years.  I've measured it before when at my most enthusiastic, and at most see peaks of 99Db and an average of 85Db at the listening position.  I don't feel the need to go any higher than that, and normally quite a bit under.

Everytime I have heard Proac speakers they have sounded too bright for my taste as well, So I went for a pair of Ovator 400s which tick all the boxes for me with a SN2... probably the last speakers I will ever own. You should be able to pick a pair up for under 3K so why not give them a listen

Hi,

I would definitely give the Neat Motive SX1 ago. I have their smaller brother the motive SX2 off the end of my si combo and the sound is very balanced indeed and not overly bright or any artifice in the treble at all. In fact the treble is so sweet that it has restored my faith in metal dome tweeters. I'm finding that the music is just flowing out like liquid, almost surreal, even at low volumes with any type of music. Very entertaining. I reckon a pair of SX1s will sound absolutely sublime on the end of your Supernait 2.

I would second the suggestions of Harbeth or Sonus Faber and to avoid Kudos & Focal if you think Proac are a bit bright.

On the other hand, an integrated Naim amp will be starting to work hard if the volume knob is above 10 o'clock.  What you may be hearing is your SN2 hardening up as the power supply has to work harder.  It may not be the speakers at all.

As an experiment, it might be worth trying a HicapDR on your Supernait 2.  Then turn the wick back up to 10-11 o'clock to hear if the sound has hardened up.  I may be on the wrong track, but the hicap will stop the pre-amp section of the SN2 from suffering when you listen at higher volumes.

Alternatively, look for some very efficient speakers (i.e. 92+dBA/Watt sensitivity), so that you can enjoy the same volume with the SN2 cruising at a 9 o'clock volume setting.

Hope this helps, FT

Thoughts on listening with the Supernait 2 at a 10-11 o'clock volume position.

A volume position of 10 o’clock on the Supernait 2 should not be as loud as 10 o’clock on the classic pre-powers ? The latter have input sensitivity of 75mV, so CD/DAC outputs of 2100mV (2.1V) result in plenty ’loud’ enough to many of us at positions around 8 o’clock/8.30. Supernait 2 has input sensitivity of 130mV, so not quite as bad as 75mV (though 130mV is still a mismatch with CD/DAC outputs of 2100mV). I don’t know how loud the Supernait 2 would sound at 10 o’clock because I’ve never used one, but given the 130mV input sensitivity it might be okay. There should at least be more useable volume rotation with the Supernait2 than with the pre-powers.

I have often wondered whether this input sensitivity difference may be one of the reasons why the Supernait2 compares so well. I might also hazard a guess that the more useable volume control is one of the reasons why the 272 compares so well with 282/252/552. Same with the Chord Hugo DAC which I understand from posts on this forum has an adjustable output which can be matched to the Naim pre-amp input sensitivity.

I appreciate that speaker sensitivity is a factor, but all things being equal .....

Just my thoughts on this.

Foot tapper posted:

I would second the suggestions of Harbeth or Sonus Faber and to avoid Kudos & Focal if you think Proac are a bit bright.

On the other hand, an integrated Naim amp will be starting to work hard if the volume knob is above 10 o'clock.  What you may be hearing is your SN2 hardening up as the power supply has to work harder.  It may not be the speakers at all.

As an experiment, it might be worth trying a HicapDR on your Supernait 2.  Then turn the wick back up to 10-11 o'clock to hear if the sound has hardened up.  I may be on the wrong track, but the hicap will stop the pre-amp section of the SN2 from suffering when you listen at higher volumes.

Alternatively, look for some very efficient speakers (i.e. 92+dBA/Watt sensitivity), so that you can enjoy the same volume with the SN2 cruising at a 9 o'clock volume setting.

Hope this helps, FT

An interesting and seemingly logical thought.  My previous speakers had higher sensitivity than the Proacs, 90Db vs 87.5Db according to the usual spec nominal blurb.  I don't really know what that nominal stuff means in the real world, but the volume control on the SN2 would end up pretty much in the same place with either set of speakers attached, and only the Proacs seem to have issues.  Maybe the previous speakers were more happy at higher volumes, or maybe presented less load on the amp overall.  Who knows?  

As I write this, I am listening to Bill Charlap - Notes From New York, and the volume dial is at 10, maybe a little under, its not loud, just properly there.  Nothing sounds strained, in fact, ironically, given the nature of this thread, it sounds awesome.     

I had a good listen to the Russell K new 120 floorstanding model (£2,750) at the new Signals' premises opening event on Friday and was much taken by them on modest Rega and Naim electronics.

Being front ported (tuned low); they don't need oodles of back-space.

John.

nicetone posted:

Thoughts on listening with the Supernait 2 at a 10-11 o'clock volume position.

A volume position of 10 o’clock on the Supernait 2 should not be as loud as 10 o’clock on the classic pre-powers ? The latter have input sensitivity of 75mV, so CD/DAC outputs of 2100mV (2.1V) result in plenty ’loud’ enough to many of us at positions around 8 o’clock/8.30. Supernait 2 has input sensitivity of 130mV, so not quite as bad as 75mV (though 130mV is still a mismatch with CD/DAC outputs of 2100mV). I don’t know how loud the Supernait 2 would sound at 10 o’clock because I’ve never used one, but given the 130mV input sensitivity it might be okay. There should at least be more useable volume rotation with the Supernait2 than with the pre-powers.

I have often wondered whether this input sensitivity difference may be one of the reasons why the Supernait2 compares so well. I might also hazard a guess that the more useable volume control is one of the reasons why the 272 compares so well with 282/252/552. Same with the Chord Hugo DAC which I understand from posts on this forum has an adjustable output which can be matched to the Naim pre-amp input sensitivity.

I appreciate that speaker sensitivity is a factor, but all things being equal .....

Just my thoughts on this.

I think you're probably about right on this.  At 10, while it's not background level, and regardless of what you're listening to, it's not the level you'd want to have a conversation over by any means, but it's not LOUD.  It's there and impossible to ignore with any music, and with rock music you'll need to raise your voice a bit to be heard, but nothing more.

J.N. posted:

I had a good listen to the Russell K new 120 floorstanding model (£2,750) at the new Signals' premises opening event on Friday and was much taken by them on modest Rega and Naim electronics.

Being front ported (tuned low); they don't need oodles of back-space.

John.

Thanks, John.  I plan to contact Signals tomorrow.  While I've not dealt with them before, it says on their website they can talk about hifi for hours.  The mood I'm in right now, I may be able to prove whether that is true.  Worryingly, the strap line on their website says 'HIFI for grown-ups', this may be a barrier for me.  We shall see.  The 120 model is not listed on the Russell K website, but if it's around will be sure to listen. 

Signals are closed on Mondays.

Nick from Suffolk posted:

Signals are closed on Mondays.

Make that Tuesday.

The speaker was a production prototype that Russell was taking around various HiFi events etc, but was either in or close to production. I too was immediately struck by the sound from this speaker, but a few oddities like the cymbals and Hihats seemed accentuated. It was very full on and I came to the conclusion I would have to spend some time over a week or so, to see if I could live with them.

Alfa4life posted:

Everytime I have heard Proac speakers they have sounded too bright for my taste as well, So I went for a pair of Ovator 400s which tick all the boxes for me with a SN2... probably the last speakers I will ever own. You should be able to pick a pair up for under 3K so why not give them a listen

What he said.

Greetings Songstream. I thought you were local. I spent a nice afternoon in North Norfolk with a friend and Basically Sound customer today.

The RK 120 I heard on dem was a prototype I think.

Good luck with your search.

John.

How about panels?

Magneplanars have great midrange - 1.7s might suit you. Or the Martin Logan Electromotion ESLs (which I have but which are now in a new edition).

Both within budget, both will disappear and let the music sing. I auditioned both against Harbeths (30.1s) and the Harbeths, for all their legendary midrange, were slow in comparison.

Just a thought...

Another vote for S-400s. Heard them recently at a fellow forum member's home and was very impressed.

Also really liked the Canton speakers I heard: Reference 3-K and Reference 5-K; in a word, they were "smooth" - didn't seem to struggle with anything on the end of a 282/NAP300.