Naim or not?

To be honest you will have to listen and decide - I suspect many around these parts take their SQ from their Naim largely for granted - and I think the very popular topic on this site  What are you listening to and WHY might anyone be interested? (Vol. XIII) says it all...

People always love to complain if something is not right for them - naturally enough - but its also true that for the vast vast majority of people where everything just works fine they on the whole don't feel they need to  type about it on a web forum .. because its hardly news worthy.....

Ok, just start with not visiting Dutch hifi forums. All of them are being trolled by a small group of complete idiots. Especially on htforum, hififorum and audiofreaks. 

Second, just be patient and wait until you can try out new stuff thoroughly. There's no other way to know if you'll be happy with the product in the end. However, there's a third: just don't expect hifi manufacturers to be good at IT stuff. Especially the old firms. They know about hifi, computers, streaming etc is new for them. Especially around app development. They will make mistakes and continue to do so. They learn (hopefully), but slow. For example, when an issue in an app is flagged, IT focussed companies will bring out a fix within a week or days. Don't expect Naim to do that. They are not used to this speed of development. 

Likewise, don't expect IT companies to produce quality hifi stuff either.  

There are exceptions off course. A few. And most of them are new to the market. 

Now, decide what you're looking for. Best sound, without issues and compromises or  the latest technology and the comfort of streaming, high res formats etc.  

Please can members be respectful of forum rules here - cross thread discussion relating to other forums is not permitted.

Hi CP, I'm also following some of the Dutch forums and it seems that a couple of people are only complaining over and over ... many of the problems they are facing can easily be fixed by consulting your friendly dealer.

I'm also very eager to see/ hear what the new Uniti Nova might bring ... it might be all that I need ...

Klout10, please read my post above. thank you.

Naim has problems with streaming. Other brands have problems with streaming too. General IT market issue. Traditional companies need to adapt the knowledge about all the different protocols (and licensing / implementation) in very short time which is quite impossible.

However ...

Naim makes very good amps.

I've not bought a Naim streamer, but have some Naits (not to mention the other Naim stuff). I feed them with either ChromeCasts , PC's or since only recently a Raspberry Pi + Dragonfly Dac.

I think I'm going to keep the Amps being Naim, and sort the streaming / digital part out by myself.

For me, Naim forever.

Don't we have that saying 'het gras bij de buren is groener' ('the neighbours lawn is greener')?

Richard Dane posted:

Klout10, please read my post above. thank you.

Sorry Richard, it was not my intention to break the forum rules ... my appologies!

The Naim steamers are pretty much top notch for local streaming. Yes remote streaming over the internet can have variable results in terms of reliability and SQ but I am confident that is significantly improved with the latest firmware that is in development (although I admit I have been saying for a long time now...). As Naim have discovered there is a lot of potential for un intended consequences you run into with streaming transports where sound quality is key... and compare a Naim streamer like an NDX or NDS with a streamer running on a Mac for example and to my ears its marked. Electrical noise emission management, stable low impedance power supplies and clock stability are so crucial for top performance... of course if you want to experiment, which I indeed also do, these aspects are less important and you can knock your self up a functional streamer for less than £100 to play around with... but in my audio room i use components where I can forget I am listening to a 'streaming solution'.

Amongst my Naim equipment, I own 3 Mu-So QB's, an HDX and a SuperUniti.
They all work as they should, now that I have a robust, well set up network.
There lies most peoples streaming problems; a flaky network.

Sorry Blythe, your comment is way too simple. There are many Naim loyal people who have reported on this forum issues with only Naim streamers concentrating around the Tidal integration. People who are using a ChromeCast audio into their NDS now to bypass the internal streamer.

Apparently google can build a reliable streamer whilst Naim has still issues.

I have no Naim streamer until now. I'm likely to buy one once the good news get reported on this forum. I trust the direction Naim is taking given on the protocols being mentioned in their product architecture stack for the new Uniti series.

But a chromecast uses another device to stream from the internet and then  send the data to another local device, so it is as I understand it not the same. But the price is right, however the quality of the music in terms of SQ is debated, even when you use a high quality dac.

The problem for Naim is I think resources, and the SQ they want to deliver. In the IT world you often release beta software and solve the problems later. With digital streaming time has become and important factor much more  than with analogue audio.

CP62 posted:

As a music lover not interested in tweaking everything to death and not in the market for 500 classic series but looking for a upgrade. Owner of a Superunity and a Naim fan and user for neary 20 years. But i do not have a good feeling about the proposed and stopped release of the new products. On the Dutch forum many are complaining about updates, app and netwerk issues and nobody is discussing music qualities anymore. It seems that many are  tweaking to get eveything to work instead enjoying the music. To be fair since i use the airport express no problems at all. So my trust in Naim is still there. Looking out for the new Nova. On paper this does everything i want. But brands like Moon and Bryston are looking promising. So my question, is there enough trust that the release of the new Uniti line will be good? I like to lisen to music to not being a pc wizard to get everything to work? So please share your opinion ?

If you do not feel comfortable with the new uniti line but you like the Naim sound, you could try a SN2. You can feed a SN2 with a USB DAC, a SPDIF DAC or with a streamer. This gives you a nice separation of concerns between music source and amplification and only one additional box.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Sorry Blythe, your comment is way too simple. There are many Naim loyal people who have reported on this forum issues with only Naim streamers concentrating around the Tidal integration. People who are using a ChromeCast audio into their NDS now to bypass the internal streamer.

Apparently google can build a reliable streamer whilst Naim has still issues.

I have no Naim streamer until now. I'm likely to buy one once the good news get reported on this forum. I trust the direction Naim is taking given on the protocols being mentioned in their product architecture stack for the new Uniti series.

People are really using chromecast into their NDS? I've never seen a thread discussing this.

Indeed, I cant remember seeing any thread discussing it either. Yes you could use Chromecast, Sonos, ora variety of streamer clients to feed into the Naim streamers but I find the SQ only mediocre that way. Functional streaming appears easy, getting the SQ such that it is indistinguishable from other quality sources is more a challenge and that is where Naim focuses.

The Naim streamers focus on SQ above all else, and I am fortunate enough to have some insight to the low level software engineering that Naim undertake for that... the mass consumer devices just don't look at it this way.. it's not relevant for their market, they genereally focus on functionality and cost above SQ. With Naim it not about simpler computer 'coding' used generally for non specialist mass market software development, it's more a case true software engineering, where the impact of a particular set of operands and their execution timing  is analyzed and optimised to reduce electro magnetic emissions and their side effects from the hardware executing the machine and assembly code. THAT is the focus you get from Naim.. and yes it can mean that such SQ optimised architectures are not best suited for the more genereal cases of web streaming where the internet timing  dynamics are more varied . Now the new Uniti architecture is supposed to address and build on this... we shall see in due course how effective it is... I suspect it will be very effective... oh yes, the new architecture supports Chromecast natively.

Simon

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

'... oh yes, the new architecture supports Chromecast natively.'

Simon

Well put in words Simon. This is precisely why I look forward to the new Uniti (and Classic?) series.

Besides that, Dozey did comment on the NDS / Chrome Cast Audio in the past. Summary: when the NDS works, it is better. If dropouts, then streaming ChromeCast Audio.

I did read the NDS whitepaper in the past which clarified a lot about the design of it.

I use a Chromecast Audio into an NAC-N272 / NAP300(DR) via the optical digital connection.

I don't use the Chromecast for local streaming as the streamer module of the 272 gives significantly better SQ.  The Chromecast is very good for a £30 gadget, but the 272 is most definitely better.  After sorting out my network issues (caused by the default configuration an ISP supplied router, so not Naim's fault at all), I now have rock steady streaming with the 272.

I do use the Chromecast to look for new music on tinternet; as most of this is encoded with lossy compression (MP3, Ogg Vorbis etc.), the further loss of SQ through the Chromecast is insignificant in this case.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Sorry Blythe, your comment is way too simple. There are many Naim loyal people who have reported on this forum issues with only Naim streamers concentrating around the Tidal integration. People who are using a ChromeCast audio into their NDS now to bypass the internal streamer.

Apparently google can build a reliable streamer whilst Naim has still issues.

I have no Naim streamer until now. I'm likely to buy one once the good news get reported on this forum. I trust the direction Naim is taking given on the protocols being mentioned in their product architecture stack for the new Uniti series.

I don't think my reply to be way too simple and by that, I mean the network is basically where the problem lies with most people's set-ups not working. I do not however use Tidal, so am not aware of any issues there may be with that service.
People's networks may be fine for some products but, other products obviously struggle.
All I know is that with my old Belkin router, I did experience some issues but not as bad as some seem to have. I also experienced issues when a cordless phone base was moved close to the router causing interference. A table lamp fitted with a compact fluorescent lightbulb sitting close to a wifi access point also caused me problems. 
Now I'm using a top quality DrayTek modem and MicroTik router, coupled with Ruckus wifi access points, all of the connections work perfectly.
Surely a good dealer will make sure that your own set-up works as it should?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

 Now the new Uniti architecture is supposed to address and build on this... we shall see in due course how effective it is... I suspect it will be very effective... oh yes, the new architecture supports Chromecast natively.

Simon

Simon, apologies if you've gone into this already, but do you have any inkling whether such functionality could be added to earlier models? Ie would it be be as simple as whether eg a 272 can run the new 'OS' (and in that case, can it do so?), or is it a whole other kettle of fish?

Most definitely a different kettle of fish, Dave. The new Uniti series has a completely new hardware platform and a new OS and application layer based on a Linux kernel, and this new software cannot run on the old Classic hardware. That means things like Chromecast and Roon support and other new features and services are unlikely to be back-ported to the Classic series even if it were possible. While still sounding great, their processing hardware, memory and OS simply don't have much if any more headroom to support new features.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... getting the SQ such that it is indistinguishable from other quality sources is more a challenge and that is where Naim focuses.

Sorry Simon, but I disagree.

Naim doesn't sell a streamer at all. It sells CD player/ripper with a streamer bolted on (Core and HDX). It sells a DAC with a streamer bolted on (NDS and NDX). It sells an integrated DAC, preamp with a streamer bolted on (272). It even sells integrated DAC, preamp, and power amps with a streamer bolted on (Atom, Star, and Nova). But it doesn't sell a streamer by itself.

Something like the microrendu, or the Auralic Aries Mini. Or the Antipodes DS Edge Renderer. Or the Linn Sneaky DS. Or the Sonicorbiter. Or the SoTM 200. All but the Antipodes under a grand. All have airplay, Tidal, Roon, and NAS UPnP integration.

It's very frustrating actually as Naim clearly has the ability: Take the Atom, remove the preamp and power amp, and provide the digital output through USB/Toslink/SPDIF.  I'd buy it tomorrow. Then I could play with different DACs and upgrade indefinitely moving forward, while using the Naim app and overall system integration.

Played directly into a DAC of any quality, these are all indistinguishable. At least according to folks like Rob Watts who go on and on about how modern DACs all compensate for jitter and RF noise through design and isolation respectively. This is demonstrable in measurements. As far as Chord DACs are concerned, Dave has both jitter compensation and isolation built in. Hugo, Mojo and their like have both if you use the optical input (as Rob does). So it's really a question of UI, and I'm sure many folks with Naim amplification would love to use the Naim UI instead of Auralic, or Linn, or web browser based junk from Sonore to drive their Naim kit!

There, I feel better now. Naim: please sell a streamer!

---Pedro

Pedro,

You're missing two things

1  Removing the cost of the components forming the DAC, preamp, volume control and poweramp from the Atom wouldn't represent that much of a cost saving (the components aren't that much of the overall cost).  And the increased cost of marketing another separate product combined with the amortisation of the development and test costs would consume all the cost savings anyway, so the ampless product would be almost the same price.

2  Different digital sources do sound different into the same DAC and amp!

Of course Rob will say they all sound the same into his DACs and it's only the DAC that makes all the difference - he's in the business of selling DACs!
However, it's true though that the DAC usually has a greater influence, but a cheap digital source into a great DAC still sounds only mediocre (otherwise all we'd ever need as a digital source would be a £30 Chromecast Audio) 

Oh, and incidentally, by your definition, the Antipodes DS Edge Renderer isn't a streamer either, it's a 2.5" NAS enclosure with a small ssd, and with a streamer bolted on!

perizoqui posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

... getting the SQ such that it is indistinguishable from other quality sources is more a challenge and that is where Naim focuses.

Sorry Simon, but I disagree.

Naim doesn't sell a streamer at all. It sells CD player/ripper with a streamer bolted on (Core and HDX). It sells a DAC with a streamer bolted on (NDS and NDX). It sells an integrated DAC, preamp with a streamer bolted on (272). It even sells integrated DAC, preamp, and power amps with a streamer bolted on (Atom, Star, and Nova). But it doesn't sell a streamer by itself.

Something like the microrendu, or the Auralic Aries Mini. Or the Antipodes DS Edge Renderer. Or the Linn Sneaky DS. Or the Sonicorbiter. Or the SoTM 200. All but the Antipodes under a grand. All have airplay, Tidal, Roon, and NAS UPnP integration.

It's very frustrating actually as Naim clearly has the ability: Take the Atom, remove the preamp and power amp, and provide the digital output through USB/Toslink/SPDIF.  I'd buy it tomorrow. Then I could play with different DACs and upgrade indefinitely moving forward, while using the Naim app and overall system integration.

Played directly into a DAC of any quality, these are all indistinguishable. At least according to folks like Rob Watts who go on and on about how modern DACs all compensate for jitter and RF noise through design and isolation respectively. This is demonstrable in measurements. As far as Chord DACs are concerned, Dave has both jitter compensation and isolation built in. Hugo, Mojo and their like have both if you use the optical input (as Rob does). So it's really a question of UI, and I'm sure many folks with Naim amplification would love to use the Naim UI instead of Auralic, or Linn, or web browser based junk from Sonore to drive their Naim kit!

There, I feel better now. Naim: please sell a streamer!

---Pedro

I think that Naim have been designing their digital sources so as to maximize the number of redundant components that one has to wire up in order to setup a full Naim system while at the same time minimizing the functionalities offered by that system. This was perhaps a clever strategy ten years ago but I do not think that it pays off today.

Sadly, the new range of uniti products does not help improving this situation: if you want to connect a Naim DAC to a high quality SPDIF feed with local storage and wireless control, if you want to enjoy internet streaming services on a NDS or if you want to setup a fuss-free solution for storing and maintaining your music collection, there are viable solutions. But not from Naim, unfortunately.  

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

...

The Naim streamers focus on SQ above all else, and I am fortunate enough to have some insight to the low level software engineering that Naim undertake for that... the mass consumer devices just don't look at it this way.. it's not relevant for their market, they genereally focus on functionality and cost above SQ. With Naim it not about simpler computer 'coding' used generally for non specialist mass market software development, it's more a case true software engineering, where the impact of a particular set of operands and their execution timing  is analyzed and optimised to reduce electro magnetic emissions and their side effects from the hardware executing the machine and assembly code. THAT is the focus you get from Naim.. and yes it can mean that such SQ optimised architectures are not best suited for the more genereal cases of web streaming where the internet timing  dynamics are more varied . Now the new Uniti architecture is supposed to address and build on this... we shall see in due course how effective it is... I suspect it will be very effective... oh yes, the new architecture supports Chromecast natively.

With THAT focus and expertise Naim is in an outstanding position when it comes to optimizing the firmware of DACs and streamers. But DAC and streamers have to be fed with data that has to be stored and managed somehow. A chip-level DSP focus does not help very much when it comes to designing and implementing dependable and flexible solutions for importing and exporting music collections, editing metadata, controlling UPnP servers and renderers, providing access to LAN and internet streaming services, etc. This is a completely different software layer. For this layer, Naim has decided not to rely on available solutions. This might be a very good strategy in the long term. But it also means that this software layer has now to be developed for the new Uniti platform. For this software layer, the know-how that is needed and the measures of failure and success are quite different from those that apply to low-level DSP software. 

Huge posted:

Pedro,

You're missing two things

1  Removing the cost of the components forming the DAC, preamp, volume control and poweramp from the Atom wouldn't represent that much of a cost saving (the components aren't that much of the overall cost).  And the increased cost of marketing another separate product combined with the amortisation of the development and test costs would consume all the cost savings anyway, so the ampless product would be almost the same price.

2  Different digital sources do sound different into the same DAC and amp!

Of course Rob will say they all sound the same into his DACs and it's only the DAC that makes all the difference - he's in the business of selling DACs!
However, it's true though that the DAC usually has a greater influence, but a cheap digital source into a great DAC still sounds only mediocre (otherwise all we'd ever need as a digital source would be a £30 Chromecast Audio) 

Oh, and incidentally, by your definition, the Antipodes DS Edge Renderer isn't a streamer either, it's a 2.5" NAS enclosure with a small ssd, and with a streamer bolted on!

Hi Huge,

In reply to your point 1:

That seems silly. You're arguing that the primary cost of the Atom is the streamer, and that the DAC, preamp and power amp (i.e. Naim's bread and butter) are basically cheap: "aren't that much of the overall cost." I'm sure it's exactly the other way around. Better be for what Naim charges for DACs, preamps, and power amps!

In reply to your point 2:

Digital sources can sound different, that doesn't mean they do. Because they can, folks buy external USB regenerators, reclockers, and isolators, made by companies like iFi and Wyred 4 Sound and Gustard. What I'm saying is that good Dacs already have these components built into them. The Chord Dave for example, has this built in. Because of that, the source (i.e. streamer) will not have an effect on the sound. I believe this because Rob has measured it to be so, and heard it to be so. Two additional comments on that: a) it doesn't make sense to say a Chord Dave is worth £8,499 because Rob Watts is a genius designer, but he's also a moron and doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to the incoming digital stream; and b) Rob himself in several interviews makes the point (and I'm paraphrasing) that adding a streamer, or a power supply, to his designs is insulting in much the same manner that salting your food before you try it would be at a three star Michelin restaurant.

Finally: yes, Rob/Chord are in the business of selling DACs, they're also in the business of selling DACs with integrated streamers. Perhaps they've stopped updating their DAC/streamers because... any old streamer will do. And they've proven that to be true. I'm guessing Rob knows more about his DAC than you or I, and will take his word for it.

But I really wish Naim would make a streamer! Just like they make a standalone DAC and a standalone preamp. Can't believe I'm trying to convince someone on a Naim forum of the value in hifi separates 

Indeed. Just a streamer, shoebox sized powered by an hicap or so. Clearly missing in the current product portfolio.