Naim or not?

Pedro, parts are probably a lot cheaper than you realise.  For instance the TI PCM1791A DAC is $2.60 in 1,000 off volume, or about $4.00 in smallish volumes.  Even the SCARC ADSP-21489 is only $11.63 in quantity!  Parts really aren't a big cost saving.

The cost of the Atom isn't primarily the electronic components in the DAC, or the transistors or passive components of the amplifier (or even in the streamer); it's the development and testing - the investment cost of the human effort to make the product real.

Huge posted:

The cost of the Atom isn't primarily the electronic components in the DAC, or the transistors or passive components of the amplifier (or even in the streamer); it's the development and testing - the investment cost of the human effort to make the product real.

The costs of advertising a product that was far from being real and of cheating perspective buyers should probably also not be underestimated ...

I gave up using my UQ as just a streamer as I felt it wasn't as cost effective as using the whole unit as meant to be (now in the office). Looking for a solution I went with the microRendu with an Uptone LPS-1 and couldn't be happier (into DAC V1). If Naim had a half width streamer only option I would certainly have given it a serious look. Just didn't think an ND5X worth it, even used, esp as I wanted to hang onto the V1. 

Huge posted:

Pedro, parts are probably a lot cheaper than you realise.  For instance the TI PCM1791A DAC is $2.60 in 1,000 off volume, or about $4.00 in smallish volumes.  Even the SCARC ADSP-21489 is only $11.63 in quantity!  Parts really aren't a big cost saving.

The cost of the Atom isn't primarily the electronic components in the DAC, or the transistors or passive components of the amplifier (or even in the streamer); it's the development and testing - the investment cost of the human effort to make the product real.

You're right that parts aren't really that much, but the bill of materials isn't what drives the cost of these units. The labor involved in designing the units is amortized and recovered over time. Additional labor in putting those parts together, and testing them is a further cost. And Naim is a for-profit company, so I'm sure the owners would like to make a little money. That Bentley doesn't pay for itself!

A streamer would have fewer parts, thus less labor, be much simpler to test: even less labor. All this would make it much cheaper. Further: a streamer would involve virtually no additional development costs, it's already been done for the Atom, Star, and Nova. You could literally make an Atom with no DAC, preamp, and power amp, leave the box half empty, and ship. You could even leave the beautiful volume knob on it for digital volume control (like Chord does) So it could be much less expensive, on a par with offerings from other companies.

nbpf posted:

The costs of advertising a product that was far from being real and of cheating perspective buyers should probably also not be underestimated ...

I think that's a bit unfair. No one was cheated, sometimes development just takes a linger than anticipated. Anyone who's been in manufacturing knows this. A company like Naim knows its reputation is on the line, and they'd rather ship a perfect unit than rush to ship a flawed one.

perizoqui posted:

nbpf posted:

The costs of advertising a product that was far from being real and of cheating perspective buyers should probably also not be underestimated ...

I think that's a bit unfair. No one was cheated, sometimes development just takes a linger than anticipated. Anyone who's been in manufacturing knows this. A company like Naim knows its reputation is on the line, and they'd rather ship a perfect unit than rush to ship a flawed one.

A number of Core users have bought their devices in the expectation that they will provide them with a fuss-free, seamless solution for organising their music collections. If I was such an user I would frankly feel cheated, at the latest since firmware upgrade v1.4 with its ancillary announcements. It goes without saying that those who buy a product in absence of precise specifications are responsible for their choices and that my feelings do not need to be shared.

perizoqui posted:

Huge posted:

Pedro, parts are probably a lot cheaper than you realise.  For instance the TI PCM1791A DAC is $2.60 in 1,000 off volume, or about $4.00 in smallish volumes.  Even the SCARC ADSP-21489 is only $11.63 in quantity!  Parts really aren't a big cost saving.

The cost of the Atom isn't primarily the electronic components in the DAC, or the transistors or passive components of the amplifier (or even in the streamer); it's the development and testing - the investment cost of the human effort to make the product real.

You're right that parts aren't really that much, but the bill of materials isn't what drives the cost of these units. The labor involved in designing the units is amortized and recovered over time. Additional labor in putting those parts together, and testing them is a further cost. And Naim is a for-profit company, so I'm sure the owners would like to make a little money. That Bentley doesn't pay for itself!

A streamer would have fewer parts, thus less labor, be much simpler to test: even less labor. All this would make it much cheaper. Further: a streamer would involve virtually no additional development costs, it's already been done for the Atom, Star, and Nova. You could literally make an Atom with no DAC, preamp, and power amp, leave the box half empty, and ship. You could even leave the beautiful volume knob on it for digital volume control (like Chord does) So it could be much less expensive, on a par with offerings from other companies.

In terms of labour, board stuffing is hardly the massive consumption of time that justifies a big reduction of cost, and soldering everything on the board takes about 30 seconds.  The main part of post-assembly testing is functional testing, yes this might be halved, so maybe as much as £40 (1/2 hour) saved here.

The development costs are still huge.  Either a new case or develop and new digital hardware and firmware to implement the digital volume control for just this one product.  If going the volume control route, you need to test this new firmware on ALL the other streamers using the new Uniti series architecture as well.  Testing this during development will be less than for a complete new package like the Atom, but all the functional testing for something as complex as a streamer has to be redone to reaffirm the margin of stability (this can be affected by things like stray capacitance and other EM coupling to the parts of the system that are no longer there).

The marketing effort for this will need to be as great as for any other product (like the Atom) so no savings here at all.

I assume you've never worked in a high tech manufacturing company.

Huge posted:

I assume you've never worked in a high tech manufacturing company.

Well... you know what they say about assumptions.

perizoqui posted:

Huge posted:

I assume you've never worked in a high tech manufacturing company.

Well... you know what they say about assumptions.

What do they say about assumptions?

.sjb

Sloop John B posted:

perizoqui posted:

Huge posted:

I assume you've never worked in a high tech manufacturing company.

Well... you know what they say about assumptions.

What do they say about assumptions?

 

.sjb

See, you shouldn't assume you know what they say about assumptions.

Sloop John B posted:

What do they say about assumptions?

 

Something about making both parties seem silly. Best to ask rather than assume I think. But that's not the point. The assumption was a disqualifying statement on the part of the poster. Something to the effect that if I haven't worked in a high tech manufacturing company I don't know what I'm talking about. I dislike this approach, because whether I do or don't know what I'm talking about should be demonstrable by attacking my arguments, not my person or my personal history or experience.

But if it helps, then yes, I've spent my entire career in the high tech sector including two companies I co-founded that manufactured sophisticated electronics. One I sold, and the other started recently, and am chief technology officer. Add 20 years in research, and a full professorship in electrical engineering at one of the nations 10 highest ranked engineering colleges. Does that make my arguments more persuasive?

Honestly I don't think it should. My arguments should stand on their own merits, not on the shoulders of my CV. Similarly, I don't attack others experience, I just disagree with their conclusions. For the reasons given.

And no, I shouldn't have assumed you knew what they say about assumptions 

Sloop John B posted:

perizoqui posted:

Huge posted:

I assume you've never worked in a high tech manufacturing company.

Well... you know what they say about assumptions.

What do they say about assumptions?

Ex falso quotlibet, I assume.