Upgrade: DAC or Amplification?

If the comparison of the 2 DACs was with the same PMC speakers then you have answered your question, but if the speakers were different then more control of a better amp may be the reason for the percieved 'shortcoming'.

Have you considered upgrading both items?  I'm thinking that a 272 and a used NAP 200 wouldn't be much more of a stretch once you have factored in the value of your existing equipment and may be better than replacing just one item in isolation.  

Best to talk to your dealer and listen to alternatives.

Richard

I'd look at the NDX/SN2 or 272/250DR. You're a bit overspeakered with the 25.23s. 

DAC is definitely the weakest link in your system. I'd simply add a used nDAC in the mix. It'd be a massive upgrade in sound quality and especially in finesse you're missing with a bare ND5XS. 

However, if the XS is not really gripping the speakers the better DAC might not do that much. I'd be wary of these 'definitely' suggestions. You need to try some options. 

As you have aptly observed the DAC in the ND5 has its limitations. Normally I would say the ND5 is the ideal partner for your XS2 but since your are not entirely happy with the level of resolution it provides, adding a high quality external DAC would be my recommendation. Both the 2Qute and Hugo are exceptional and would be my choice over the Naim DAC. I don't know your speakers but unless your PMCs really do require much more control than the XS2 can provide, I would stick to both your Naim component. Start with improving your source first before considering anything else, i.e. add a Chord DAC and be done with upgrading. Btw. adding a better DAC into the mix will also improve the level of control your XS2 can exert by some degree.

25.23 shouldn't be a difficult load for XS2. I'd still say that source is your weakest link and nDAC would bring improvement. Of course for definite answer, your only option is to audition different options. 

 I had a 2qute in my system for a couple of weeks, it had impact, rhythm and dug out lots of detail, it also robbed the music of any emotion. I could improve the latter with a change of digital cable but not enough. Not saying everyone will hear it the same but take your time and audition at home at length before deciding.

Definitely beware of definitely suggestions...  err... ?  

OK, I've actually upgraded an ND5XS / Nait XS 2 combination with the main objective of increasing detail and getting better differentiation of orchestral timbres...

Despite what many people say, the Lavender interconnect does hold the system back in these two specific ways.  In my case, I made an interconnect using Mogami W2534 (W2549 also works very well), but other options are available commercially. Here is the link to the topic in which I discuss my results (part way down the first page).

Secondly the other limitation for detail and differentiation of orchestral timbres is the power supply to the XS 2's preamp.

Ultimately however I upgraded to a NAC-N272, and that is a much better source and preamp (in the end I coupled it with a NAP300DR and that's a really great combo).
On the other hand those who say the PMCs are unfairly loading the XS poweramp are probably also right.

Well, having done it myself the H word comes to mind, bringing greater clarity and naturalness  (some people say more analogue) compared to the ND5XS's own DAC. From most accounts it is better sounding than the 2Qute which you've heard. Big brother Dave even more so but I'm not suggesting that as a realistic suggestion, even though Turandot is a personal favourite...

I can't comment definitively on the effect of the XS2 being possibly less than ideal amp for those speakers- there are plenty of people on here who will have first hand experience, hopefully into similar speakers. (My own experience with other (non-naim) amps into other transmission line speakers the differences have tended to me more to do with tautness of bass and handling of the loudest crescendos.) 

Personally I don't subscribe to the notion of being over-speakered in terms of system components, but only if you have too small a room. - if you like the sound of the speakers good ones will simply sound better with every improvement in the system.

Hopefully you'll get enough from here to know what to seek to compare.

Good point by Huge about the interconnect cable. Lavender cable is very weak compared to alternatives. I use TQ Black and just recently tested the lavender out of curiosity. It was a short test, I only needed few songs to hear the massive loss of detail, dynamics and liveliness in the sound. Quickly back to the black. 

Many thanks for all the replies -- much appreciated to have so much input to read after a nursery run and meeting other family duties like cooking dinner and playing Gone Fishin'!

Most of the suggestions I have been having on the radar for a while. Though more recently, after reading a lot about the streaming platform innovations with the Uniti range, I wonder whether, at this time, the 272 or NDX are still the best options. If going down this particular Naim route it might be worth waiting for the new streaming platform to diffuse...

At first I was quite suspicious of the Hugo hype -- "Rob Watts says...." in too many thread. But recently, when re-listening to the Dance of the Tumblers, I thought it sounded wrong compared to the "wow" at the speaker audition. And then the penny dropped -- it might have been the 2Qute that made the difference; and I think I now better understand the hype around the Hugo or more generally Chord DACs...

With the imminent arrival of the Hugo 2, a used or ex-demo Hugo 1 might be an interesting VFM upgrade option. Or maybe the 2Qute as I don't need "portability", though I am a bit worried about issue with the fixed volume output. I need to look into this, and also compare Chord Dacs to the Naim Dac (the latter seems also available for modest money in the used/ex-demo market).

In any case, I understand I need to (home) demo carefully. My excitement for a new DAC is essentially based on the recollection of one track after quite some time. With a broader spectrum of music I need to confirm whether my memory hasn't fooled me...

Re amplification, this is certainly also on my wish list. But I fear I need to upgrade incrementally to avoid upsetting my wife...

I have no doubt that moving to a Supernait 2 will bring significant improvement, though not sure whether the impact of a DAC would be greater -- i.e. this thread. Also, I wondered whether I would be satisfied with the SN2 in the long run. Will better DAC, SN2 and a bit of tweaking (e.g. cables) kill the upgrade bug? Or shall I from the outset aim for higher? The latter would involve some domestic difficulties... 

Thanks again to all!!! 

Huge posted:

Definitely beware of definitely suggestions...  err... ?  

OK, I've actually upgraded an ND5XS / Nait XS 2 combination with the main objective of increasing detail and getting better differentiation of orchestral timbres...

Despite what many people say, the Lavender interconnect does hold the system back in these two specific ways.  In my case, I made an interconnect using Mogami W2534 (W2549 also works very well), but other options are available commercially. Here is the link to the topic in which I discuss my results (part way down the first page).

Secondly the other limitation for detail and differentiation of orchestral timbres is the power supply to the XS 2's preamp.

 

Ultimately however I upgraded to a NAC-N272, and that is a much better source and preamp (in the end I coupled it with a NAP300DR and that's a really great combo).
On the other hand those who say the PMCs are unfairly loading the XS poweramp are probably also right.

Your input as a former XS2/ND5Xs owner is hugely  appreciated!!

Timo posted:

Re amplification, this is certainly also on my wish list. But I fear I need to upgrade incrementally to avoid upsetting my wife...

I have no doubt that moving to a Supernait 2 will bring significant improvement, though not sure whether the impact of a DAC would be greater -- i.e. this thread. Also, I wondered whether I would be satisfied with the SN2 in the long run. Will better DAC, SN2 and a bit of tweaking (e.g. cables) kill the upgrade bug? Or shall I from the outset aim for higher? The latter would involve some domestic difficulties... 

Thanks again to all!!! 

Before you move to a SN2 you would want to upgrade your source anyway, so getting one of the Chord dacs will not be a waste. Otherwise the SN2 will simply expose the limitations of the ND5 even more so than your XS2. 

My own point of view regarding upgrading, get the best you can afford without risking asking yourself the question why you spent whatever you spent on your hifi further down the line. Consider this, even your "modest" ND5/XS2/PMC Twenty5.23 system already cost more than most people will ever spent on their musical replay system and in all fairness, it probably sounds rather good as it is. There is always a "better" sound to be had somewhere higher up the ladder but it begs the question whether you really need to be at that "higher" level to enjoy your music? If the answer is yes, then one could ask why that is because surely, if it were just about the music, even an entry level system provides everything anyone needs to enjoy music. Hence, it is clearly about more than just music.

Sticking around the forum long enough will inevitably lead to you wanting to upgrade to levels you would not have considered otherwise. It happens to everyone. Some people go all the way and happily stay at the top. Lot's of people go up some way only to downgrade again at a later stage because either they overspent or realised that they simply don't require a top end hifi system to enjoy their music. Or both.

Anyways, enjoy your journey wherever it takes you. That is the most important.

totemphile posted:

There is always a "better" sound to be had somewhere higher up the ladder but it begs the question whether you really need to be at that "higher" level to enjoy your music? If the answer is yes, then one could ask why that is because surely, if it were just about the music, even an entry level system provides everything anyone needs to enjoy music. Hence, it is clearly about more than just music.

Sticking around the forum long enough will inevitably lead to you wanting to upgrade to levels you would not have considered otherwise. It happens to everyone. Some people go all the way and happily stay at the top. Lot's of people go up some way only to downgrade again at a later stage because either they overspent or realised that they simply don't require a top end hifi system to enjoy their music. Or both.

Anyways, enjoy your journey wherever it takes you. That is the most important.

Wise words Totemphile -- many thanks for this posting!

My journey won't bring me to "the top", I know this. The disposable income of an academic with family obligations is limited... And whilst I am not keen on travelling for instance and would be happy to prioritise hifi over holidays far away, my wife's view is rather different... And although I would certainly enjoy a true high-end system, I don't "need" it. Incidently, my teaching in social policy includes "human needs"...

So my search is about a healthy compromise -- satisfying my "desire" for a certain level of music reproduction and the "usual" constraints. My brain tells me that an SN2 and a better DAC should actually be fine. But then I also know that I first thought the XS2/ND5XS should be more than enough for me. In fact, when I got to the speakers, I bought the PMC with the view to be 'future proof" -- already expecting upgrades before completing the starter set...

Does this mean I fool myself when I think an SN2 plus new DAC should sort me out? When I started exploring hifi last summer i truely believed that a budget significantly below the price of my wife's Yamaha NU1 would be more than enough for my cloth ears. Actually, I promised I wouldn't spend more than we spent on her piano. Well, that one didn't quite work out either...

I find that it helps to set a long term goal in your system building plans, and work out the best way to get there, rather than making incremental improvements which turn out to be numerous, potentially unsatisfying, and involve a financial loss with every change. This is where a good dealer is invaluable in allowing you to listen to different setups and make a plan. For example, I jumped from a Superunti to NDX/282/200DR. I could have gone via quite a few intermediate steps on the ladder, but I just wanted to get there in the most efficient way possible. I spent quite a lot of time listening at my dealers to various NDX and 272 based streaming systems with a budget of about £10k and a 3-box maximum, and settled on that one as it sounded the best to my ears.

So the upgrade process over the following year was to add a 200DR to the SU, then add the NDX as a source, then sell the SU and add the 282. Three steps to get to where I knew I wanted to be, missing out a number of streamers and amps in between.

There are some forum members who seem to have stood on almost every rung of the Naim ladder at least once, which, of course, is fine if that's what they want to do, but they must be a lot richer than I am! 

All good responses and I do not want to add much here. Totemphile made a comment worth pondering on. In the event you don't want to go all the way up to the top, the SN2 or 272/282-based system may be all you would ever need.

Good luck  with the quest.

The NDX + SN2 is a great two box system. The ND5 + SN2 leaves a lot to be desired. If you get a Chord DAC, odds are you'll then want a better amp. (Yikes... It never ends.)

Maybe this week I'll put my ND5 into my SN2 system to finally determine if I can detect an audible difference vs NDX when used as transport only.... 

Great words by totemphile. 

I've been sort of stuck with the nDAC + SN2 (+ HCDR) level for some time now. nDAC has been a cornerstone of my system since 2011, SN2 from 2013. I did add an aftermarket PSU for nDAC recently and it did make a nice improvement. Next real upgrade step from here would set me back big time so it hasn't happened. I consider 282 + 250DR the only reasonable step up. I've tried NDX as a source but it wasn't for me. I've also considered moving on from Naim since the upgrade steps get ridiculously expensive from here but there's nothing quite like Naim out there. 

What I have done in between is optimizing my computer as a source, tweaked the cables (interconnect and power) and demo different speakers. Actually ATC's are my third pair after I got SN2. My setup sounds very good at the moment so I think I'll just enjoy music for now. 

Patu posted:

Great words by totemphile. 

I've been sort of stuck with the nDAC + SN2 (+ HCDR) level for some time now. nDAC has been a cornerstone of my system since 2011, SN2 from 2013. I did add an aftermarket PSU for nDAC recently and it did make a nice improvement. Next real upgrade step from here would set me back big time so it hasn't happened. I consider 282 + 250DR the only reasonable step up. I've tried NDX as a source but it wasn't for me. I've also considered moving on from Naim since the upgrade steps get ridiculously expensive from here but there's nothing quite like Naim out there. 

What I have done in between is optimizing my computer as a source, tweaked the cables (interconnect and power) and demo different speakers. Actually ATC's are my third pair after I got SN2. My setup sounds very good at the moment so I think I'll just enjoy music for now. 

 

Great system you have I would imagine improvements from here on in get less and the cost gets bigger, despite what I have read on this forum I have never experienced Night and Day, Jaw dropping improvements when making an upgrade just more Naim sound with slightly added detail.

Bob the Builder posted:

Great system you have I would imagine improvements from here on in get less and the cost gets bigger, despite what I have read on this forum I have never experienced Night and Day, Jaw dropping improvements when making an upgrade just more Naim sound with slightly added detail.

With incremental upgrades I do agree.

Which is why I went from ND5 XS + non-Naim PSU / NaitXS 2 + non-Naim PSU to NAC-N272 + non-Naim PSU / NAP300(DR) in very short order (about 2 months!).
Now that was a WOW upgrade (but with something of a WOW, Ouch! pricetag, even with a s/h NAP300(DR) ).

Kevin Richardson posted:

Maybe this week I'll put my ND5 into my SN2 system to finally determine if I can detect an audible difference vs NDX when used as transport only.... 

Please do so if you find the time. I recall a comment in an old thread that there wasn't much between the two when used as a transport only. But it wasn't clear, as far as I remember, whether this comment was based on an actual comparison. Not all advice here in the Forum is based on a sound "empirical" basis... So I am sure your little experiment would be appreciated by many!!

Huge posted:

Bob the Builder posted:

Great system you have I would imagine improvements from here on in get less and the cost gets bigger, despite what I have read on this forum I have never experienced Night and Day, Jaw dropping improvements when making an upgrade just more Naim sound with slightly added detail.

With incremental upgrades I do agree.

Which is why I went from ND5 XS + non-Naim PSU / NaitXS 2 + non-Naim PSU to NAC-N272 + non-Naim PSU / NAP300(DR) in very short order (about 2 months!).
Now that was a WOW upgrade (but with something of a WOW, Ouch! pricetag, even with a s/h NAP300(DR) ).

Moderated Post:  Timo, please ensure you are familiar with forum rules.  Discussion of unauthorised modifications (which includes non-Naim power supplies) is strictly forbidden.

Bob the Builder posted:

Patu posted:

Great words by totemphile. 

I've been sort of stuck with the nDAC + SN2 (+ HCDR) level for some time now. nDAC has been a cornerstone of my system since 2011, SN2 from 2013. I did add an aftermarket PSU for nDAC recently and it did make a nice improvement. Next real upgrade step from here would set me back big time so it hasn't happened. I consider 282 + 250DR the only reasonable step up. I've tried NDX as a source but it wasn't for me. I've also considered moving on from Naim since the upgrade steps get ridiculously expensive from here but there's nothing quite like Naim out there. 

What I have done in between is optimizing my computer as a source, tweaked the cables (interconnect and power) and demo different speakers. Actually ATC's are my third pair after I got SN2. My setup sounds very good at the moment so I think I'll just enjoy music for now. 

 

Great system you have I would imagine improvements from here on in get less and the cost gets bigger, despite what I have read on this forum I have never experienced Night and Day, Jaw dropping improvements when making an upgrade just more Naim sound with slightly added detail.

Thanks, I do enjoy the system! There have been few such moments during my journey. Upgrading from SN to SN2 was probably the biggest change. Also after giving a proper demo for XP5XS and a certain non-Naim PSU for nDAC, I learned to appreaciate the improvement in dynamics, depth and liveliness which they both brought. Ended up with the non-Naim PSU in my setup. 

Timo:

About ND5XS and NDX used as a transport only. I wouldn't be conserned about this at all. ND5XS + nDAC would be extremely close to NDX + nDAC. I've had both, NDX and ND5XS at home but I didn't compare them side by side. Both performed well in transport mode. 

Hi Timo. I'm currently running PMC 20.23 with a SN2 although I started with a NaitXS/FCXS so probably not too dissimilar to yourself. The NaitXS/FCXS had no problem driving the PMC's although I felt that there was a lack of bottom end control and grip. I subsequently, switched to SN2 which drives the PMC's with much more authority as well as improving things in many other areas. The negative thing about the switch to SN2 however, was that (I felt) it exposed my source which was a DAC-V1 at the time. I therefore made the switch to a Chord Hugo which was a pretty huge upgrade for me (although I did divert via a Chord 2Qute). The 2Qute in my system, gave a slightly shouty presentation which could become a bit tiring which is why I eventually settled with Hugo. This set up has left me so far in a pretty happy place.

I suspect your path could be similar but I think it would be worth considering, if you prefer streaming to switch to a 272/250 based set up with the option addition of an XPSDR at a later date or to go NDX/SN2 with the option of adding an outboard DAC/XPSDR. Both set ups would keep you very happy I would imagine. Alternatively you could stick with your ND5XS and add a DAC to that. Lots of options to choose from!

Patu posted

 

About ND5XS and NDX used as a transport only. I wouldn't be conserned about this at all. ND5XS + nDAC would be extremely close to NDX + nDAC. I've had both, NDX and ND5XS at home but I didn't compare them side by side. Both performed well in transport mode. 

Reassuring -- especially since the NDX as transport only is quite a pricey proposition...