In praise of 272/250DR

Finkfan posted:

Thanks Adam z!

My only fear, without hearing either an XPSDR or 555 at home is that the 555 may be too much for my small room??? 

NAIM power supplies don't make the sources or amps go louder or faster

They tend to improve on what is already good, add clarity and level of details not previously audible.

Finkfan posted:

Thanks Adam z!

My only fear, without hearing either an XPSDR or 555 at home is that the 555 may be too much for my small room??? 

Finkfan, if it helps I demoed both XPSDR and 555PS in my lounge which is 18' x 16', into K6s. Both sounded really good, significant improvement musically over bare 272. If I hadn't been in the fortunate position of being able to afford either, I would have been happy to settle for the XPSDR. However, the 555 takes a good sound and, in my opinion, makes it great (exact same reaction of my dealer, who has bought. 555 himself for use in his home system). I'm not too good with hifi terminology, but it just seemed to add another dimension - bigger soundstage, better separation, just more 'musical', tauter, better controlled bass (but that's not to say there was anything wrong with bass via the XPS).

Is it worth the extra £2,700? Who can ever answer a question like that to the satisfaction of others? Yes, it's worth it to me. I don't like buying second hand hifi. I'm sure there are wonderful bargains to be had, I simply prefer not to. Only you can make the decision. Sound wise I'm sure you wouldn't regret it. Financial wise, only you  know if you'd rather spend the difference elsewhere. Hope that makes sense - I never feel comfortable when passing an opinion on the spending of others!!

Regards

Tim

Timmo1341 posted:

Finkfan posted:

Thanks Adam z!

My only fear, without hearing either an XPSDR or 555 at home is that the 555 may be too much for my small room??? 

Finkfan, if it helps I demoed both XPSDR and 555PS in my lounge which is 18' x 16', into K6s. Both sounded really good, significant improvement musically over bare 272. If I hadn't been in the fortunate position of being able to afford either, I would have been happy to settle for the XPSDR. However, the 555 takes a good sound and, in my opinion, makes it great (exact same reaction of my dealer, who has bought. 555 himself for use in his home system). I'm not too good with hifi terminology, but it just seemed to add another dimension - bigger soundstage, better separation, just more 'musical', tauter, better controlled bass (but that's not to say there was anything wrong with bass via the XPS).

Is it worth the extra £2,700? Who can ever answer a question like that to the satisfaction of others? Yes, it's worth it to me. I don't like buying second hand hifi. I'm sure there are wonderful bargains to be had, I simply prefer not to. Only you can make the decision. Sound wise I'm sure you wouldn't regret it. Financial wise, only you  know if you'd rather spend the difference elsewhere. Hope that makes sense - I never feel comfortable when passing an opinion on the spending of others!!

Regards

Tim

Not directly related to the thread but sort of: I remember that you mentioned that the 300DR did not work with your K6. Out of curiosity, I wondered whether this was with the 555PS -- or whether you tried the 300DR with the XPSDR as well. 

Cheers!

I demo' d both the XPS DR and 555 DR. They both took the 272 to another level. However, the 555 sounded more natural. The dealer gave me an excellent price on his demo unit so I went for the 555. But , like others, I would have been happy with the XPS

Timo posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

Finkfan posted:

Thanks Adam z!

My only fear, without hearing either an XPSDR or 555 at home is that the 555 may be too much for my small room??? 

Finkfan, if it helps I demoed both XPSDR and 555PS in my lounge which is 18' x 16', into K6s. Both sounded really good, significant improvement musically over bare 272. If I hadn't been in the fortunate position of being able to afford either, I would have been happy to settle for the XPSDR. However, the 555 takes a good sound and, in my opinion, makes it great (exact same reaction of my dealer, who has bought. 555 himself for use in his home system). I'm not too good with hifi terminology, but it just seemed to add another dimension - bigger soundstage, better separation, just more 'musical', tauter, better controlled bass (but that's not to say there was anything wrong with bass via the XPS).

Is it worth the extra £2,700? Who can ever answer a question like that to the satisfaction of others? Yes, it's worth it to me. I don't like buying second hand hifi. I'm sure there are wonderful bargains to be had, I simply prefer not to. Only you can make the decision. Sound wise I'm sure you wouldn't regret it. Financial wise, only you  know if you'd rather spend the difference elsewhere. Hope that makes sense - I never feel comfortable when passing an opinion on the spending of others!!

Regards

Tim

Not directly related to the thread but sort of: I remember that you mentioned that the 300DR did not work with your K6. Out of curiosity, I wondered whether this was with the 555PS -- or whether you tried the 300DR with the XPSDR as well. 

Cheers!

Tried both! It was definitely an issue between the speakers, the 300 and the room, solved magically by the substitution of the 250 into the system.

DUPREE posted:

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Yep the mighty NAP100 its still doing a sterling job feeding my Proac Tablette 10s and at this point reluctant to change anything as the Tab 10s are so easy to drive I don't need more especially in my living room.

A few weeks back I was contemplating a NAP250dr as my next upgrade but I may opt for the XPSdr instead when funds allow.

So 272/XPSdr/100 into Proac Tab 10 could possibly be my end goal.....

2WheelsRBetter posted:

Kenth Immerbo posted:

Listening too the new Jaco P Live on CD via analogin (CD5XS) and it's so much better then my NaitXS already.

Just curious - have you tried listening to CD5XS through "digital in" into the 272?  I'm curious how the two DACs compare.

Day 2

fiddeling around with all the different option that the 272 gives you and thats just endless and sound is getting better over all so it's hard to tell whats the best, but CD5XS as a transport via Spidif out too optical in2 in my case using the BNC adapter with a cheap monster cable is the best right now.

(Opening bottle No2 of that french bubbel Wine)  

I like Stanley Clarke 

HiFiman posted:

DUPREE posted:

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Yep the mighty NAP100 its still doing a sterling job feeding my Proac Tablette 10s and at this point reluctant to change anything as the Tab 10s are so easy to drive I don't need more especially in my living room.

A few weeks back I was contemplating a NAP250dr as my next upgrade but I may opt for the XPSdr instead when funds allow.

So 272/XPSdr/100 into Proac Tab 10 could possibly be my end goal.....

I would share the same sentiment. No doubt the NAP 250 DR will bring a lot of improvements not only over NAP 100 but the NAP 200. The changes are from top to bottom across the frequency spectrum. However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

In summary, you could be right that the NAC272/XPS DR/NAP100 may well be your end game when matched with the Proac Tablette 10.

I'm not convinced. I used a 250 with Kans for years and it was great, as was a 300 into nSats. You can get a big sound from small speakers, particularly if you use a big amp. I imagine a 250DR into the Tablettes would be brilliant, and well worth trying at least. 

ryder. posted:

 

I would share the same sentiment. No doubt the NAP 250 DR will bring a lot of improvements not only over NAP 100 but the NAP 200. The changes are from top to bottom across the frequency spectrum. However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

In summary, you could be right that the NAC272/XPS DR/NAP100 may well be your end game when matched with the Proac Tablette 10.

Not keen on the 200, tried one at home okay not the DR version but preferred my 100. Also when used with the 272 the 200dr has redundancy components ie DR and its inbuilt power supply that will never be used,

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not convinced. I used a 250 with Kans for years and it was great, as was a 300 into nSats. You can get a big sound from small speakers, particularly if you use a big amp. I imagine a 250DR into the Tablettes would be brilliant, and well worth trying at least. 

I guess I'm at a cross roads, both upgrades either the XPS2dr or 250dr is at best going to cost £3kea for an ex demo unit, some home demo's  to see which one brings the biggest upgrade as I cannot afford both or divorce is on the cards!!!

I think ... in your case I would go with the 250dr it is a great amp - with a good propulsive drive to the sound - it was great with my PMC20.21's. You can always add a psu at some later date - and look out for a bargain.

HiFiman posted:

Not keen on the 200, tried one at home okay not the DR version but preferred my 100. Also when used with the 272 the 200dr has redundancy components ie DR and its inbuilt power supply that will never be used,

I am not suggesting the NAP 200 for your Tablette 10. I am sharing my experience on the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR used on the Dali Mentor Menuet which is a small speaker. The differences between the 200 and 250 DR are relatively small with the Dali when compared to a much larger speaker, the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus.

Hungryhalibut posted:

I'm not convinced. I used a 250 with Kans for years and it was great, as was a 300 into nSats. You can get a big sound from small speakers, particularly if you use a big amp. I imagine a 250DR into the Tablettes would be brilliant, and well worth trying at least. 

Yes, one could obtain a big sound from small speakers even with a relatively modest amp. What I am suggesting is there is a limit to what a small speaker can achieve, dynamically even when driven by a big amp. The small speaker may sound slightly larger when driven by a big amp, though the scale and bass are limited by the size of the enclosure and driver.

The Tablette 10 is an efficient speaker which is easy to drive with its high sensitivity. It may not respond much with a bigger amp although there may be changes. Of course it's best if Hifiman can try the 250 DR in his system to find out on the quantum of improvement for himself. Nevertheless, since there is a financial constraint I would suggest to not worry about the current setup since it is sounding jolly good at the moment, with the NAP 100.

My dealer's view is that if you want to step up from a 200, you should go for a 300, or stick with what you've got. I realise that there are many fans of the 250DR on here, but that was his opinion. Just goes to show that you really have to listen and decide for yourself.

ryder. posted:

HiFiman posted:

DUPREE posted:

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Yep the mighty NAP100 its still doing a sterling job feeding my Proac Tablette 10s and at this point reluctant to change anything as the Tab 10s are so easy to drive I don't need more especially in my living room.

A few weeks back I was contemplating a NAP250dr as my next upgrade but I may opt for the XPSdr instead when funds allow.

So 272/XPSdr/100 into Proac Tab 10 could possibly be my end goal.....

I would share the same sentiment. No doubt the NAP 250 DR will bring a lot of improvements not only over NAP 100 but the NAP 200. The changes are from top to bottom across the frequency spectrum. However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

In summary, you could be right that the NAC272/XPS DR/NAP100 may well be your end game when matched with the Proac Tablette 10.

I really really liked the NAP100. I think for the money it is great. If your speakers are efficient it maybe all you ever need. I was unplused with the upgrade to the NAP200 personally. I would only move from 100 to 250DR, which is a monster of an amp otherwise if you are happy with the 100 why upgrade.

ryder. posted:

HiFiman posted:

DUPREE posted:

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Yep the mighty NAP100 its still doing a sterling job feeding my Proac Tablette 10s and at this point reluctant to change anything as the Tab 10s are so easy to drive I don't need more especially in my living room.

A few weeks back I was contemplating a NAP250dr as my next upgrade but I may opt for the XPSdr instead when funds allow.

So 272/XPSdr/100 into Proac Tab 10 could possibly be my end goal.....

I would share the same sentiment. No doubt the NAP 250 DR will bring a lot of improvements not only over NAP 100 but the NAP 200. The changes are from top to bottom across the frequency spectrum. However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

In summary, you could be right that the NAC272/XPS DR/NAP100 may well be your end game when matched with the Proac Tablette 10.

Why do you think the physical size of the driver frame alone makes such a difference?  Speaker drivers are a mass of competing and (hopefully) balanced engineering compromises, with no one particular measurement or property dominating the mix.

DUPREE posted:

I really really liked the NAP100. I think for the money it is great. If your speakers are efficient it maybe all you ever need. I was unplused with the upgrade to the NAP200 personally. I would only move from 100 to 250DR, which is a monster of an amp otherwise if you are happy with the 100 why upgrade.

The speaker efficiency has little to do with it, the difficulty of the speaker load is much more significant (the NAP 200 is only 3dB louder than the NAP 100, and the NAP 250DR is only 4dB louder).

On the other hand the NAP 100 and NAP 200 have very similar poweramp technology, whereas the NAP 250DR and NAP 300DR have a completely different topology, so yes the 250DR is going to be a much bigger change.

The NAP 300DR is also essentially a dual mono design.  I went from a Nait XS 2 direct to a NAP 300DR which was a quite astonishing change, and reminds me of a quote from the Bonzo Dog Dodah Band: "Once I was a seven stone weakling, now I'm two separate gorillas!".

Huge posted:

ryder. posted:

HiFiman posted:

DUPREE posted:

HiFiman posted:

Bottom end for me but the 272/100 sounds wonderful in fact the best I have owned, 272 is one hell of a pre.

I started with the 100 on my 272.. In my opinion for the money, 100 is an unsung hero in NAIM's lineup.. I was not overly plussed when I went to a used non-DR 200 - better and still a great amp still the 100 had most of the mojo already. 250DR completed the pic.. no upgraditiis.. the 272/250DR in a midsized room is superb... Unless you have big power needs it is an A+ system.

Yep the mighty NAP100 its still doing a sterling job feeding my Proac Tablette 10s and at this point reluctant to change anything as the Tab 10s are so easy to drive I don't need more especially in my living room.

A few weeks back I was contemplating a NAP250dr as my next upgrade but I may opt for the XPSdr instead when funds allow.

So 272/XPSdr/100 into Proac Tab 10 could possibly be my end goal.....

I would share the same sentiment. No doubt the NAP 250 DR will bring a lot of improvements not only over NAP 100 but the NAP 200. The changes are from top to bottom across the frequency spectrum. However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

In summary, you could be right that the NAC272/XPS DR/NAP100 may well be your end game when matched with the Proac Tablette 10.

Why do you think the physical size of the driver frame alone makes such a difference?  Speaker drivers are a mass of competing and (hopefully) balanced engineering compromises, with no one particular measurement or property dominating the mix.

Because I experienced it in my system. The small speaker is Dali Mentor Menuet, the big speaker is the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus. Both speakers had been driven by the 282/200, 282/250DR, 202/200 and 202/250DR.

ryder. posted:

Huge posted:

ryder. posted:

.... However, in my mind it's usually the bass that makes the most difference. With small monitors (5" main bass driver or smaller), the differences or improvements with a larger amp may not be fully exploited. The differences will be much more prominent with a larger speaker (6" to 8" bass driver or larger) when going from the NAP 100 to the NAP 250 DR. That's my hunch, supported by my experience trying the NAP 200 and NAP 250 DR with the diminutive Dali Mentor Menuets.

...

Why do you think the physical size of the driver frame alone makes such a difference?  Speaker drivers are a mass of competing and (hopefully) balanced engineering compromises, with no one particular measurement or property dominating the mix.

Because I experienced it in my system. The small speaker is Dali Mentor Menuet, the big speaker is the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus. Both speakers had been driven by the 282/200, 282/250DR, 202/200 and 202/250DR.

Ah, I see.  Unfortunately when comparing different speakers like that, there are so many other things that influence how well a smaller or larger amp can drive the speaker.  Size of the cone (and hence the frame size) is just one element in a very complex mix.

Linn Kans are an example of a (very) small speaker that aren't fully exploited unless driven by a very 'muscular' amp.

Huge posted:

Ah, I see.  Unfortunately when comparing different speakers like that, there are so many other things that influence how well a smaller or larger amp can drive the speaker.  Size of the cone (and hence the frame size) is just one element in a very complex mix.

Linn Kans are an example of a (very) small speaker that aren't fully exploited unless driven by a very 'muscular' amp.

Yes, I agree with that. Your comment on the Linn Kans is an example of a difficult or inefficient speaker that requires a muscular amp to come alive. This would apply to other small difficult monitors such as some of the inefficient Dynaudios. My earlier remark is based on a small speaker being "sufficiently driven" by a modest powered amp. In this case, the small speaker will not sound underwhelming. It may not sound stellar but it will sound sufficiently good.

My reasoning is when the smaller speaker is already sufficiently driven (by a small amp), it is working close to its optimal parameters. When a smaller amp is replaced by a larger amp, there will be some changes or improvements in the sound. Nevertheless, the changes may not be significantly huge especially in bass definition since the output is limited by the smallish driver and enclosure of the small speaker. However, a large speaker will be able to show much of the changes in the bass when driven by a capable (big) amplifier. Case in point, when I switched from the NAP 200 to NAP 250 DR on the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus which is a rather large speaker, there was an appreciable change in the bass. The bass gained a lot of weight and definition. There was texture in the bass lines previously not reproduced with the NAP 200. The Harbeth sounded lightweight at the bottom and showed a "one-note" bass when driven by the NAP 200. With the NAP 250 DR the sound was significantly beefed up with an overall more muscular presentation. The difference was marked and rather appreciable.

It's a different story when I switched between the 200 and 250 DR on the small Dali monitors. Yes, there was a difference with the 250 DR on board. The sound was fuller but the bass remained fairly similar. The small speaker is limited to what it can achieve in the bass.

Hifiman has found the Proac Tablette 10 to sound stellar with the 272 and NAP 100 as the speaker is not "under-driven". The Tablette 10 is an easy-to-drive speaker with a nominal 10 ohm impedance and is designed to be used with low-powered amps/tube amps. The Tablette 10 will likely show some improvements with the NAP 250 DR but my opinion is the differences may not be as significant as the 250 DR driving significantly larger speakers if it is already "sufficiently driven", ie. not under-driven.

Thanks Rider and Huge for your insights regarding amps and speakers, interesting read. I have decided to demo the XPS2dr but I need to persuade the wife first

Hang on the toilet flush upstairs has packed up and she is going on about a whole new bathroom refurb!!! 

Hi my experience is .... sometimes when an amp is working hard....it can sound exciting .... due to the harmonics and stress within the circuits and psu.....this can manifest itself in a brighter sound. The Nap200 uses a classic unregulatedesign psu whereas the 250.2 onwards uses cleaner regulated power supplies ..... the 250.2 will sound superior faster and more together.....

Richieroo posted:

Hi my experience is .... sometimes when an amp is working hard....it can sound exciting .... due to the harmonics and stress within the circuits and psu.....this can manifest itself in a brighter sound. The Nap200 uses a classic unregulatedesign psu whereas the 250.2 onwards uses cleaner regulated power supplies ..... the 250.2 will sound superior faster and more together.....

I found the 200 a bit more nimble and cleaner than the somewhat lumpy 250.2...

Just saying, as they say.

G

Richieroo posted:

Hi my experience is .... sometimes when an amp is working hard....it can sound exciting .... due to the harmonics and stress within the circuits and psu.....this can manifest itself in a brighter sound. The Nap200 uses a classic unregulatedesign psu whereas the 250.2 onwards uses cleaner regulated power supplies ..... the 250.2 will sound superior faster and more together.....

Indeed the regulation from the 250 upwards provides a lovely smoothness and control to connected speakers... transducer willing... with revealing ATC speakers I found a world of difference between the somewhat light/edgey  but slightly shut in 200 to the smooth, detailed and authoritative  sound of the 250.2... which has become even more detailed now with the DR version.