NAC 272/XPS DR into Croft 7R

No clue about the Croft power amp but I would rather try a few different speakers before giving up on the 250DR. You have a lovely Naim combo but I never warmed up to Harbeth. I auditioned them twice and on both occasions I felt they were nice but somewhat dull.  I wonder whether ATC, PMC or Dynaudio could be more your cup of tea...

I have tried another amp and the presentation was much more lively so to my ears not the speakers.  Very truthful to what's in front.

Like TIMO I have no clue about the Croft amps,but I use the 272/XPSDR into active Dynaudio XD 600's,and it is absolutely fabulous,which only proves that the combo works into non Naim amps,if that is any help to you.

alanb posted:

Currently own a NAC 272 with XPS DR and Harbeth Super HL5 Plus speakers.   Was using a NAP 250 DR but found the music was presented too 'nice'.  A little too warm and laid back.  I want a little more transparency and dynamic interest.

Has anyone on this forum tried going into a Croft 7R power amplifier that is much recommended by Harbeth users?

Thanks guys.

I know the amp that you are referring to which sounds more upfront and lively than the NAC 272 / XPR DR / NAP 250 DR. It's interesting that the 250 DR, or perhaps the combination of the 272/250DR lacks the transparency and liveliness of the little amp. Since you are considering a different amp for the NAC 272, I believe you suspect the 250 DR to be the culprit to the warm, laidback and dull sound you are getting with the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus. There is a possibility the NAC 272 or the combination of it with the 250 DR as a whole is contributing to the warm and laidback presentation.

May I ask why you aren't considering the non-Naim amp to be a permanent fixture with the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus in your system? Are you trying to salvage the NAC 272/XPS DR hoping to attain a higher fidelity sound reproduction that will surpass the performance of that little non-Naim integrated?

FWIW I am using the NAC 282 / Hicap DR / NAP 250 DR with the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus and find the presentation to be lively and dynamic. However, I don't have another high-quality amp for comparison, hence there is no benchmark. Having said that, the overall house sound of the speakers in combination with the Naim amps does lean slightly to the warmer side but the punch and dynamics are all there. 

Does that non-Naim integrated possess the same level of punch and dynamics as the NAP 250 DR particularly in bass definition (one note bass vs. textured or layered bass)

Ryder,I am not sure where you are getting the integrated from...when I look up Croft 7R with google,it comes up with mono block amps?

No quarter, sorry for the confusion. The integrated amp is not a Croft but from another manufacturer. I am not sure if the OP wants to reveal it here. It's a British made amp and rather niche.

Wow gentlemen!  I asked if the 272/XPS DR combination would work with the Croft 7R.  Noone has answered that question.  I am given answers that do not help me one bit.

Yes I am trying to keep the combination as I haven't found a top class streamer that will give me NAS access, internet radio and Spotify.  Yes I have tried a few up to 8 grand.  I like what the Naim does and the App is brilliant.  I wanted to use an amp using the line output from the 272 not the pre.  This amp, the Sonneteer Orton sounds good but the remote volume control is nowhere near fine enough.  Before you say anything....when you are approaching 80 and riddled with arthritis you don't want to be getting up and down to adjust the volume.  The Croft is supposedly a great match for the Harbeth hence the question.  Oh....the matching Croft pre has no remote.  That has scotched that suggestion.

I have asked a simple question....Has anyone tried the 272/XPS DR with the Croft 7R????

Sorry No Quarter...Croft do a 7R in a stereo amp and two monoblocks.

alanb posted:

Wow gentlemen!  I asked if the 272/XPS DR combination would work with the Croft 7R.  Noone has answered that question.  I am given answers that do not help me one bit.

Yes I am trying to keep the combination as I haven't found a top class streamer that will give me NAS access, internet radio and Spotify.  Yes I have tried a few up to 8 grand.  I like what the Naim does and the App is brilliant.  I wanted to use an amp using the line output from the 272 not the pre.  This amp, the Sonneteer Orton sounds good but the remote volume control is nowhere near fine enough.  Before you say anything....when you are approaching 80 and riddled with arthritis you don't want to be getting up and down to adjust the volume.  The Croft is supposedly a great match for the Harbeth hence the question.  Oh....the matching Croft pre has no remote.  That has scotched that suggestion.

I have asked a simple question....Has anyone tried the 272/XPS DR with the Croft 7R????

 

 

No need to get annoyed!! Presumably nobody here tried your Croft amp -- possibly for good reasons... Maybe you should return to the Harbeth Forum with your "simple question" if you don't appreciate efforts here...

alanb posted:

I have asked a simple question....Has anyone tried the 272/XPS DR with the Croft 7R???? 

If you run a forum search for Croft 7R,  the only mention of it is in this thread,  so I tend to think the answer is no.  

Alan - can i suggest another route as i don't think (great as the Croft amps are) that the Naim / Croft match will be a good one. You don't say what speaker cable you are using but i would see if your dealer could loan you some Tellurium black to try which i think could help with your problem. 

James

Croft is very popular with Harbeth loudspeakers. However, Harbeth don't discuss amplifiers as their philosophy is different grade of amplifiers will not make a difference on their speakers. Most posts about amplifiers on the Harbeth forum will usually receive a lukewarm response with most suggesting a cheap and cheerful amp sounding as good as the costliest exotic ones, if not better.

The Naim pre - Croft power amp combination is uncommon. Not too sure if anybody has run this configuration before. MIght be more useful to post this on Pinkfish as David Wren(hifidave) of Radlett Audio carries the Croft, Harbeth and Naim if I am not mistaken.

Not answering you question, but it is a social platform here where we can go in any direction.

I would try a Nap 100. About same specs as the Croft you mention. Can be had second hand for GBP 500 and can be sold for a minimal loss. I think it does the job ...

No offence meant here ALANB,but i had the 250 dr with my 272/xpsdr for several months,but not with Harbeth speakers before i went with the XD600'S.I find that combo to be very "transparent and dynamic",is it possible that your almost 80 year old ears are the problem?I know my hearing is nothing like it was as a young man,but if the Croft amp sounds good to you,i say go for it,is it possible to try it at home?

Alan - I have had something of an overlap with your experience - using a 252/250.2 with Harbeth 30.1. I found the combination very transparent and expressive in the midband and reasonably dynamic - I was very sorry to have to change the speakers when I moved house. However there are those who doubt the Harbeth's ability to produce a dynamic sound especially with heavy rock music. So one possibility might be that the Harbeth's themselves don't suit your taste. Whether the Croft would produce the sort of sound you want in combination with the Harbeths is a question that you probably won't get answered here. I would echo the advice you got above about contacting David Wren at Radlett Audio. He sold me my Harbeths and as well as selling Croft he knows Naim well.
Clive

No quarter posted:

is it possible that your almost 80 year old ears are the problem?

Not sure whether this will be taken well... It certainly falls into his "you don't answer my simple question" category. What was the thing about not shooting the messenger -- good luck... 

No quarter posted:

Like TIMO I have no clue about the Croft amps,but I use the 272/XPSDR into active Dynaudio XD 600's,and it is absolutely fabulous,which only proves that the combo works into non Naim amps,if that is any help to you.

And not so long ago there was a thread about using the 272 with a pair of active ATC. The guy was very happy with this combo, and even treated himself to an XPS DR shortly after receiving the 272 -- this made him even happier.   Naim isn't "laid back", is it?  

Cdb posted:

Alan - I have had something of an overlap with your experience - using a 252/250.2 with Harbeth 30.1. I found the combination very transparent and expressive in the midband and reasonably dynamic - I was very sorry to have to change the speakers when I moved house. However there are those who doubt the Harbeth's ability to produce a dynamic sound especially with heavy rock music. So one possibility might be that the Harbeth's themselves don't suit your taste. Whether the Croft would produce the sort of sound you want in combination with the Harbeths is a question that you probably won't get answered here. I would echo the advice you got above about contacting David Wren at Radlett Audio. He sold me my Harbeths and as well as selling Croft he knows Naim well.
Clive

I think the Harbeth respond well with few select amps and have the ability to sound more energetic, livelier and dynamic when matched with these amps.  I don't know about the Sonneteer Orton but my previous experience with the LFD Zero LEIII albeit a short one was nothing short of breathtaking. At that time I have the older Super HL5. When the LFD went in replacing a much costlier Audio Research and Plinius separates, everyone was in for a big shock (there were few who attended the listening session). Somehow the LFD possessed the raw energy the larger separates could not replicate, with the Harbeth. I tried the Nait XS and 202/200 a year later, and although I could not compare both amps to the LFD, I wager the LFD will have the slight edge when matched with the Harbeth. Somehow it managed to bring the Harbeth to life. The sound was full of energy. I suspect the Sonneteer Orton might have shown some of the LFD's traits when matched with the Harbeth.

I couldn't live with the LFD as it does not come with a remote(I also had some issues with the build quality). The 202/200 didn't have the energy and enthusiasm of the LFD (when matched with the Super HL5) but they did sound quite a bit better than the overly warm and laid back ARC/Plinius separates. The Plinius/Harbeth combination was a mismatch to my ears but some folks may like the thick syrupy sound.

The 282/HCDR/250DR sounds punchy and dynamic when matched with the Super HL5 Plus. With Alan's experience, I suspect it's the tonality between the Naim and Sonneteer that's the issue, not so much about dynamics. The Sonneteer may have sounded more illuminating or lean, not as warm.

Gentlemen, I had already spoken to Dave at Radlett Audio. He does indeed sell Sonneteer and Croft but hasn't sold Naim for some time so unsure how the Naim/Croft combo will perform.  I did however speak to another dealer today who suggested I set the volume on the Naim pre to 100% and control the volume totally with the Sonneteer.  I had never been told this before.  Always set the integrated to about 12 o'clock then control with the pre.  What a difference!  Transparency returned and sounds excellent.  Unfortunately I can't use this formula with a power amp. 

Croft arrived and in.

Sounds absolutely superb.  Incompatible?  Not to my ears.  Harbeths opened up beautifully.

Happy to read that you are happy. Maybe it's helpful for some other bloke willing to try a Croft in the future.

My first 'Croft' association was 'Allo 'Allo  by the way.

Switch the speakers out for lively ones. French speakers would suit. Triangle Magellan is the route I went. Much better than all Dynaudios, which sound, I am afraid to admit oh so unmusical in comparison. They are far less strident sounding than the B&W D series and they have better insight into the performance than Focal diablos. I tried them all - The diablos have the clearest treble though - far better than anything B&w make up to 22k

Seeing as B&W has just been sold - I feel comfortable recommending something French over British, only because it isn't British anymore.