Navigating through Naim digital range of products

Posted by: aysil on 10 August 2011

Forum threads can go off-topic; this is usual, but it was interesting that a recent discussion about confusion of terminology about different products burst into a thread titled for Naim-Linn comparison. It is easy for Linn: it produces only one type of product in the digital range: UPnP stream client with dac incorporated. That's all. Naim has a wider range of products. However, NAIM OFFERS NO TOOL FOR NAVIGATING THROUGH THIS RANGE OF PRODUCTS AND MAKING PURCHASE DECISIONS. Salmon Dave was complaining on that thread: “It is confusing, and that I think is the trouble now with Naim's approach - they've got some great products out there, but the potential audience is in a fog.” There were many others complaining with “confusion” on that and many other recent threads. On that thread, there was “consensus that Naim could make some progress in a tutorial type approach” and “provide more information … to their prospects who are trying to make network audio purchase decisions.”

 

I took some time this Sunday to work on a guideline to the Naim digital range for beginners. I tried to bring together what I have learned during the last year. I request the more experienced members to correct or improve what I have come up with. This may really help some new members...and we may turn this thread into a quick reference thread for Naim beginners.

 

I noticed, Naim does not create its own terminology and feels itself helplessly delivered to the existing confusion of different terms and standards worldwide in this field. There is not even a consistency in the terms used in the Naim website: NDX is categorized as ”Network Player"; then, under  All-in-one players, the totally same function is mentioned first as "network stream player" on the Uniti Overview page; five lines below as "Digital stream player"; on the Features page of the same product, as "Digital audio streamer". Is this carelessness, insecurity in the face of general terminology confusion, indecision, or an attempt to embrace all these circulating terms? Whatever this is, it adds to the confusion of especially of the newcomers to the field. (There are other confusing things on the website, like UPnP being named as input in the HDX specifications, whereas it is actually a UPnP server.)

 

It is not surprising that many of the newcomers look for information in this forum. The forum is truly a valuable source of information. In fact, even Naim staff is sometimes more generous in providing information to the forum than in the main website. I remember Phil explaining with patience what UPnP server and client are in the first thread announcing the planned release of NDX. Such information has never been available on the main website. However, because of the abundance of such dispersed information on the forum, life is not easy here, either.

 

Hook's long contribution on that thread was really shedding light on some of the issues. However, I believe it fell short in one aspect, namely in that, it reproduced the distinction which Naim makes btw Network Player and Hard Disk Player. I find this distinction totally misleading and dysfunctional. HDX, NDX, UServe, Uniti, UQute are ALL network players par excellence! They all play music files located on the network. The fact that they use different protocols to achieve this is secondary (HDX and UServe through SAMBA protocols, NDX, Uniti,and UQute through UPnP). This secondary information should be explained decently though, as it influences the configuration of the rest of the system. The differences btw the five Naim network players reside in the additional features they accommodate.

Firstly, I have a list of all the functions that exist in this range of Naim products. Then I will try to assign the functions to each product:

 

1) Ripping of CDs to hard disc: Typically, this can be done on a computer or on two of the Naim network players.

2) Storage of music files – ripped CDs as well as downloaded music: this is typically on a NAS, on the hard disc of a computer, or on a Naim network player with storage functionality.

3) Database: Access to all your music files stored on one or multiple locations on the network with all the associated metadata

4) UPnP Server: Indexes and makes music files available for UPnP stream clients, which are normally in another zone (room) or in special cases in the same zone. Two Naim network players accommodate this function, but it could also be in a computer, or a portable device.

5) UPnP Client: Receives a UPnP stream (normally from a Naim server in another zone or a computer server in the same zone) and supplies the data to the playback chain. This kind of streaming saves the client from duties like scanning, databasing, or indexing music files, as all information is provided on the fly. However, this type of network player requires a server elsewhere on the network.

Note: I must say I do not like the use of the term “streamer” as it does not specify which end of the stream we are talking about.

6) UPnP Control Point: Controls the playback functions of UPnP stream. All Naim clients incorporate a control point, but this is not true of all clients on the market (e.g. Linn). Control point could also be on a computer or a portable device (N-Stream).

7) Rendering/Pre-DAC Processing:  This includes all the processing of the music file digital data in order to render them operable by the DAC, like pre-dac DSP and S/PDIF generation.

8) DAC: converts the digital data to an analogue signal, which will be amplified later and transmitted by the speaker.

 

Before making this list any longer, let me try to remember, which network players have which functions:

 

HDX:       Ripping, Storage (non-ssd version); (Extended) Database; UPnP Server - typically for stream client(s) in other zone(s); iRadio (soon with the upcoming update); Rendering/Pre-DAC Processing; DAC

UServe:   Ripping, Storage (non-ssd version), (Extended) Database, UPnP Server - typically for stream client(s) in another zone(s) or for sonic upgrade in the same zone, iRadio (soon with the upcoming update); Rendering/Pre-DAC Processing

Uniti & UQute: UPnP Client; UPnP Control Point; iRadio; Rendering/Pre-DAC Processing; DAC; DAB/FM Tuner; Integrated amplifier

NDX:       UPnP Client; UPnP Control Point; iRadio; Rendering/Pre-DAC Processing; DAC; DAB/FM Tuner (optional)

nDAC:     basically only DAC; but some browsing/rendering, as well, as it has a USB input in addition to its classical dig-in

 

All devices have different designs and we should not expect those that share the same functions to perform these functions equally. The fact that the components play multiple roles makes configuration decisions more complicated, and however you configure your system, it is very probable that you will end up with redundancies in your system (the same function being existent in multiple components), especially in upgrade paths. This means you may end up using only some of the features of a particular component. This is Naim’s policy and it has advantages in spreading upgrades over time, but poses difficulties if you know exactly what you want from the beginning – e.g. me wanting the ripping/database/rendering features of HDX but the dac section of NDX. They don’t come in separate boxes.

 

I think the basic initial decision to make is if you want the ripping/database roles performed by Naim. If yes (the more holistic and more Naim solution), you should start with one of the two network players with these functions, and choose the model which fits more to the Naim range you aim for; otherwise, the upgrade paths will be more complicated or expensive. If you want to keep the ripping/database roles on a computer (the more computer enthusiast solution), a UPnP client is more like the device you would start with.

 

This proposed guideline is only for those aiming a full Naim set up. Of course, it is possible to mix with third-party components, like connecting a foreign network renderer to nDAC or connecting a computer to nDAC with an adapter etc. There are many examples of such suggestions on this forum.

 

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by aysil

Another set of functionality that may be added to the list is the various docking options. I am not very experienced in this, so please correct me if I am wrong:

 

USB Memory Stick docking: all Naim network players will browse and make music files available for playback – two devices with server will also make them available for UPnP streaming.

 

iPod/iPhone docking: Naim network players vary in this functionality as follows:

HDX, UServe: browse all digital files on all generation iPods (but not on iPod Touch or iPhone) and make them available for local playback or UPnP streaming.

NDX, Uniti, UQute: Display and playback of all audio files on 5th generation and later iPod models and iPod Touch, iPhone, and iPad models. They decode the music in whatever format and then the on board Apple chip allows a digital stream from the device

nDAC: Audio files in 5th generation and later iPod models and iPod Touch, iPhone, and iPad will be played sequentially through the USP input. iPod Touch or iPhone running Plugplay can convert it to UPnP client.

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by aysil

Playback of internet streaming services, like Pandora, Rhapsody, Last.fm, etc.

No Naim network player supports this alone. Possible solutions: Use a iPod Touch, iPhone, or iPad with the correct application to stream to a Naim component with UPnP input (NDX, Uniti,UQute), or  send to the dig-in  (NDX, Uniti, UQute, nDAC) through an Airport Express.

 

Could somebody tell us about the different iTunes integration options for different Naim network players, for example?

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by Jan-Erik Nordoen

Great stuff Aysil ! I commend your efforts to clarify the terminology and to classify the product lineup according to the function(s) they perform. The latter is especially useful, as this is how we select a product, i.e, : What do I want to do ? The next step would be to present all this in a chart, say with functions as columns and products as rows (with photos, as done in diagrams in the Naim white papers). This would simplify choosing the right combination and also provide a quick visual idea of the box count.

 

Many thanks,

 

Jan

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by Richard Dane

Aysil,

 

an excellent post.  Coincidentally it's one of the issues I hope to discuss with Naim when I'm at the factory next week.  Even I get confused by the terminology sometimes but despite my analog leanings I've thrown myself in at the deep end and now have a much better understanding.  However I know what a maze it must seem to anybody coming to computer/network digital audio for the first time and feel that what Naim need is a layman's guide to help get a basic understanding.  Naim have most all of the pieces, what's needed is a guide to show how they all go together and why, preferably written and put together by somebody who has experience and a good grasp on the subject.

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by GerryMcg

Excellent work aysil, thanks  for taking the time to post.

 

Gerry

Posted on: 10 August 2011 by Jack
Aysil,

Great job, I'm sure a lot of people will find this extremely useful. A couple of thoughts on additions improvements:

Pictures really help - if this ever becomes a sticky a few pictures would be great

Something on the different ripping formats and what is supported by the different Naim network players (had to check I was using the correct terminology there!) e.g. which support AIFF etc

Jack
Posted on: 10 August 2011 by Iver van de Zand
Dear Aysil,

This is an amazing piece of survey and analyses that really clarifies !! Many thanks !
Iver
Posted on: 10 August 2011 by Hook
Originally Posted by aysil:
...

Could somebody tell us about the different iTunes integration options for different Naim network players, for example?

 

Aysil -

 

As usual, very nice work.  Your thoughtful approach to organizing this information should prove helpful to those who are considering their options for network-based digital playback. 

 

Also, I got a good laugh at your discovery of Naim's inconsistent use of terminology.  Good detective work!

 

IME, the best option for iTunes integration is Airplay via an Apple TV (ATV).   The $99 (USD) ATV is easy to install, and Airplay support for apps is growing quickly.  I don't use iTunes, but I do use Spotify on my iPad.  It connects wirelessly using Airplay to the ATV.  My ATV is hard wired to an ethernet switch, and is connected via Toslink to my DAC.  At 320kbps, Spotify sound quality is respectable -- plenty good for exploring and sampling new music.   Hopefully, someday, Naim will support Airplay natively (at which time I will redeploy the ATV to my home theater system).

 

Hope this helps.

 

Hook

 

PS - Perhaps when Richard discusses with Naim how they could do a better job of explaining all of their options, he could make a case for them building some number of diagrams showing popular deployment scenarios.   For each scenario, they could describe pluses and minuses, as well as upgrade paths.   I agree with Jack that seeing such a diagram, along with a list of the functions each component provides (in that specific configuration) would be helpful.  And seeing how the same component in two different configurations can have its list of functions change might also be instructional (e.g., US as UPnP server for a UQ vs. US as the digital source).

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Frank E

Thanks for posting that, my confusion is with where all the products are positioned in relation to each other .. what the flagship coonfiguration is, upgrade paths etc.

Not half as confusing for a streaming noob like me as file formats, tagging formats, supporting software; rippers, taggers, cataloguers, NAS OSes though, but that was quickly answered in my first thread on here.

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Gordon McGlade

Why have a go at Naim? Try doing technical support for all of this.

 

What is the difference between a Router, switch, gateway, router switch, ADSL modem, ADSL modem router?

 

It´s a minefield and there are so many manufacturers out there who call their products what they want.

 

Now that is confusing but nobody seems to have a go at any of them!

 

So if anyone is confused and does not understand Naim´s digital product line they should go to an authourised dealer or contact their distributor. Nothing has changed in that from the old days, that is why they have dealer network and DO NOT SELL ON FORUMS!

 

Gordon

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Tog

Dealers are fine and Naim's are very helpful but that doesn't disguise the fact Naim's marketing approach to its digital products is a bit confused. In my experience the dealers I have used are learning as they go along and have no secret store of knowledge to impart. 

 

However, the stuff that Naim or Linn is just hifi and if it is ready for the consumer it shouldn't need someone to hold your hand every time you turn on the power switch. There is a disparity between the paternalistic - "Your dealer will know what to do!" and the fact most of Naim's target market are professional, highly educated and successful people with significant disposable incomes who would prefer it if their hifi wasn't operating a Hal 9000 policy towards their music collection.

 

I would also guess that their target market isn't impressed with over-complicated "techno*****ks and expect the products to form part of a coherent lineup "sans gobbledegook"

 

Linn have got the marketing schtick "spot on" with just the right amount of mystic celtic charm and a simple lineup of hugely expensive toys that do one thing very well. More than this they have avoided the UPnP jungle by sticking to producing "renderers" and left the streaming to others.However, their kit is just as prone to UPnP meltdown as any other.

 

Anyway the next time your NDX says "I'm sorry Dave* I can't let you do that!" as you try to stream a flac file from your NAS just remember.... your dealer is probably having the same problem.

 

Tog

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by aysil
Originally Posted by Gordon McGlade:

Why have a go at Naim? ...

 ...

Jordon,

I am not a native English speaker, so I had to look for an on-line dictionary to understand this. I found this:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/have+a+go+at+it

If this is what you mean, I don't like it; I would rather have other fantasies!

 

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by aysil
Originally Posted by Gordon McGlade:

 ...

What is the difference between a Router, switch, gateway, router switch, ADSL modem, ADSL modem router?

...

Yes, true, it would be a very valuable contribution to the forum if you could explain the differences btw them!

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by aysil

I know the people at Naim must be really very busy. I know this from the very short e-mail responses they send to my questions - very short with unfinished sentences without even punctuations. Still, I appreciate them very much because they care to reply, very swiftly, and very informatively - unlike some other manufacturers.

 

As to the distributors and dealers, I am sure there are many of them out there, very much informed and helpful. ...but in my country where the Naim distributor is constantly changing, I don't imagine to rely on them. Indeed, we must get used to this new age, where a lot of information will be circulating on the internet. ...and there will be appreciating and loyal customers of Naim who will be willing to share their experiences...in order to improve things...

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by aysil

Hook,

Thank you for your suggestion for iTunes library integration. It is very practical. I have found out these additional methods for the Naim components:

 

For HDX, UServe: It is described in these documents on the Naim website how to make the iTunes library and playlists visible to the "Naim servers":

http://www.naimaudio.com.../hdx_itunes-pc_supplement_issue_1.pdf

http://www.naimaudio.com...itunes-mac_supplement_issue_1.pdf

http://www.naimaudio.com...itunes-mac_playlist_supplement_issue_1.pdf

 

For UPnP client components: it may be worthwhile to try some UPnP control points which provide iTunes library integration, like Kinsky Desktop. ...Alternatively, use any 'server software' which has this feature; some of the media players, which have UPnP server feature can do this.

 

I have not tried any of these options, maybe users could comment or suggest other methods...

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Hook
Originally Posted by Gordon McGlade:

Why have a go at Naim? Try doing technical support for all of this.

 ...

 

Gordon

 

Gordon -

 

IMO, you are being needlessly defensive.   Aysil and the rest of us are simply offering constructive criticism, aimed at helping Naim do an even better job of attracting new customers.

 

As far as dealers go, I am one of the lucky ones.   My dealer is extremely knowledgeable, and we have a great relationship.   However, the last thing in the world I want it to be dependent on just one guy for all of my information about Naim.   That's why I participate in this forum.  Besides, times have changed.  For every 1 person visiting their local audio dealer to learn about new technologies, there are 9999 more online, visiting dealer web sites and forums like this one to do their research.   It is imperative for Naim to put their best foot forward on the web.   How many of these surfers are going to become Naim customers if their initial reaction to the product line is confusion?

 

There is no denying that network digital audio is more complex than playing CD's or records.  Aysil and others have made some very specific recommendations how Naim can improve their product marketing and customer education.  By doing a better job of establishing a baseline of knowledge -- even by doing something as simple as drawing pictures of how Naim products can fit together -- their prospects and customers will be able to ask more intelligent questions, and their dealer relationships will become more productive.  It is a clear win/win.

 

And the first thing Naim should do is to review and editing their web site for consistent use of terminology.   In fact, to back up, it would appear that Naim's technical writers are not even using a common set of terms!   So first, they need to decide what they are going to call things, and then they need to be consistent in their usage.   IMO, Aysil has done Naim a great service by pointing out this problem. It needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

 

Hook

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by DavidDever
Next time I see an NDX melt down with an "I'm sorry Dave" I will remind it that I have the capacity to make it forget that it ever played a Sarah Brightman track, even if by accident.

As regards the Naim digital roadmap - it's really not that bad, provided you know what you want. Form follows function, and I think (in my honest opinion) that too many people get hung up on what the Internet forums tell them they should have, as opposed to visiting a competent retailer that displays and uses the product (this applies to many brands, not just Naim).

I have seen far too much money wasted in this industry on stubbornness that manifests itself in the discussion and purchase of flavor-of-the-month products which will have no long-term value, as opposed to deliberate, well-engineered products which get the job done and will continue to do so. We have watched the computing industry eat itself alive by this behavior - do we really want to see the specialist audio industry do this as well?
Posted on: 11 August 2011 by DavidDever

@Hook - we have developed tools for retailers in the US to explain the solutions available, though it really requires sufficient product on display to make good use of the demo techniques.

 

Also–it is instructive for retailers to see what their peers are doing as regards successful presentation of digital music solutions. These experiences also shape the refinement of the message.

 

The breadth of Naim product offerings (DACs, UPnP streamers, servers, all-in-one players) reflects what the marketplace has borne as regards the need for a heterogenous set of solutions, rather than a "this-is-how-you-will-do-it" approach.

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Hook
Originally Posted by DavidDever:

@Hook - we have developed tools for retailers in the US to explain the solutions available, though it really requires sufficient product on display to make good use of the demo techniques.

...

 

Hi Dave -

 

Could these tools and techniques become the basis for an online system builder?

 

IMHO, it would be very cool if Naim developed a wizard (What is your overall budget?  Will you be listening to music in more than one room?  Are you interested in automating the process of ripping your CD's?, etc.).   The last step in the wizard would be emailing the results (a diagram of the components showing how they fit together, along with a list of the functions each provides) to a user-selected dealer for analysis and follow-up.

 

Wouldn't this result in more leads for your dealers?

 

Just a thought.

 

Hook

 

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by DavidDever
Anything that obviates the need for proper demonstrations I am not personally interested in.
Posted on: 11 August 2011 by aysil

I agree with David. Nothing replaces proper demonstration, at best home demonstration. The key here is, as David says, that the customer knows what he/she wants...and the customer can not know before seeing and feeling what these devices are actually capable of.

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Hook

Interesting.   I would have thought something like an online wizard would result in more, not less, dealer demonstrations.   I wasn't talking about a tool to spit out a detailed quote that a prospect could use to go price shop.  I was talking about an educational tool, something that could paint a picture, and spur a prospect's imagination, thus making them more interested/receptive to a dealer relationship and demonstration.

 

But am sure you guys know better, so I'll drop the topic.   Like I said, it was just a thought.

 

Hook

Posted on: 11 August 2011 by DavidDever
@Hook - I'll show you what I'm working on at some point.
Posted on: 11 August 2011 by Iver van de Zand
Dear Aysil,

Coming back to your iTunes integration question. As an alternative to Hook's suggestion for an Apple TV2, you also might consider the Apple Airport Express which is slightly cheaper, but lacks video transport and only facilitates in audio transport. It works wireless or wired and uses Airplay to transport data. The Airport express has a mini-jack connect that is also Optical, so i use it to connect to my DacMagic which connects to my Naim amp. The result is more than ok to me. There is no interuption of songs (I use Apple Losless via iTunes) during playing. Opposite to the Apple TV2 which installs easily, the Airport is not installing easily at all (see the many form discussions). The main reason for it, is that the Airport Express has probably to many functions: apart from Airplay wireless audio receiver, it can also extend your network, act as printerserver etc... However, once installed it works very well.
Posted on: 11 August 2011 by PBenny1066
Hi Aysil,

A great post, as commented by others.  Back to your thread, a couple of comments on your initial list of functionality vs models.

- don't think the Qute can play or rip CDs.
- might want to add "local back up" to your list of functions, I think the HDX has two internal disks, one of which is to back up the other.

Good luck with pursuing this, I think it is worthwhile. Being philosophical, I guess that when you consider what this technology is doing, it is inevitably going to be complex. Most of the folks on this forum are probably "early adopters" of the technology, and perhaps "complexity" is the price we have to pay. I consider myself relatively IT savvy, but a at times this forum feels more like an anorak forum than an audiophile forum. So my hat off to you or anyone else who can simplify things for the benefit of others.

Surely a competitive opportunity for Naim ? To simplify where others make complex. This was (is) one of Apple's key differentiators.

Cheers, Paul