Units core- short lived ?

David Hendon posted:

Christine posted:

Klout10 posted:

CSI_Basel posted:

Christine posted:

The Unitiserve was and still is an amazing product and I believe that when Core was announced we all assumed it would be a Unitiserve but more advanced and with better sound quality etc etc

Unfortunately right now the Core is very much a step backwards in relation to a Unitiserve and this is what is confusing so many Naim owners.

 

 

Your statement isn't quite correct, there are many functions that the Core lacks compared to the Unitiserve, below is a non exhaustive list;

1.  No physical power off button

2.  No ability to directly attach a VDU, Keyboard & Mouse

3.  No serial connection port and other ports

4.  No PC based metadata editing

5.  No PC based control, monitoring and setup software

6.  No Web based playback and monitoring.

 

I suspect most Core buyers, including me if I'm honest, would regard these as advantages of the Core, not disadvantages, to the extent that they cared either way. I dislike having to let my PC anywhere near my music.

I'm being deliberately provocative but, with respect, I think what you want is mostly a niche and just not worth Naim investing development effort in it. I do think Naim's decision not to allow metadata editing of the downloads folder of the Core from the Naim app is daft though and I predict that they will also come round to that way of thinking in due time. Maybe version 2.0 of the Core Firmware or version 6.0 of the Naim IOS app ("Your UnitiCore reimagined"?)

best

David

I was just challenging the comment that the Core was almost as functional as the Unitiserve......which by a long chalk it isn't.

My own opinion is that I thought It may be reasonable to expect the Core to be more advanced than the ten year old Unitiserve.

David Hendon posted:

Christine posted:

Klout10 posted:

CSI_Basel posted:

Christine posted:

The Unitiserve was and still is an amazing product and I believe that when Core was announced we all assumed it would be a Unitiserve but more advanced and with better sound quality etc etc

Unfortunately right now the Core is very much a step backwards in relation to a Unitiserve and this is what is confusing so many Naim owners.

 

 

Your statement isn't quite correct, there are many functions that the Core lacks compared to the Unitiserve, below is a non exhaustive list;

1.  No physical power off button

2.  No ability to directly attach a VDU, Keyboard & Mouse

3.  No serial connection port and other ports

4.  No PC based metadata editing

5.  No PC based control, monitoring and setup software

6.  No Web based playback and monitoring.

 

I suspect most Core buyers, including me if I'm honest, would regard these as advantages of the Core, not disadvantages, to the extent that they cared either way. I dislike having to let my PC anywhere near my music.

I'm being deliberately provocative but, with respect, I think what you want is mostly a niche and just not worth Naim investing development effort in it. I do think Naim's decision not to allow metadata editing of the downloads folder of the Core from the Naim app is daft though and I predict that they will also come round to that way of thinking in due time. Maybe version 2.0 of the Core Firmware or version 6.0 of the Naim IOS app ("Your UnitiCore reimagined"?)

best

David

In my view, the lack of support for metadata editing of the downloads folder of the Core is a sensible choice that Naim can easily explain and justify.

Developing software for metadata editing should not be a major concern of Naim. Metadata editing can be done much better and more safely with well-established third-party tools, both before importing the data into the Core's downloads folder and after the import.

If they think that it's worth the efforts, Naim could provide some very rudimentary functionalities for basic metadata editing, of course. But then these functionalities should be applicable to all files, not only to those in the downloads folder or only to those in the music folder.    

I think that Naim's major mistake has been to port an obsolete and awkward solution to the Core's platform. They could have easily preserved compatibility between the old servers and the Core while at the same time getting rid of the music folder and of the infamous internal database. This would have been simpler, cleaner and probably cheaper.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Of those six, I only ever used the first one when I had my UnitiServe. I can imagine that the Core is a great solution if one wants to connect to a DAC and use its spdif output, but if one wants to use it on a networked system it seems, apart from the easy ripping, to be pointless. A simple nas does everything, again apart from the ripping, so much more flexibly. But then, as Harry says above, hindsight is a wonderful thing. 

If people don't find the Core does what they want, the easy answer is not to buy it. You don't buy a microwave and then complain that it doesn't do the washing up. 

christine, as many many users, is complaining about the lot of bugs and problems with metadata editing or not appearing with the core. But in her recent answer, she wanted just to be more precise than klout10.

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Choong posted:

Richard,

How do you deal with compilation CDs?  The way the Core sorts its music doesn't appear to allow the Naim app to read artistes and songs found in a compilation CD under the Artist and Song lists. 

Richard Dane posted:

 

Richard, I generally play files as albums.  Not sure I've noticed anything awry with the few compilations I've ripped thus far.  I'll check it out sometime.  

I think this is a valid criticism: a compilation album will show the artist for each and every track as 'Various', which is useless. I've tried moving the album to the downloads folder and adding the artist for each track using Metadatics, but this is no use, as the app then displays each track as a separate album. I find the best solution is often to open the much-maligned Rovi booklet, which generally shows the track listing along with the correct artist for each one.

(As a dinosaur, I am assuming that this is relevant to the Core, as it's what I've found on my Unitiserve.) 

I understand that the Core and the US make the files in the downloads folder available on the LAN. Thus, one could likely circumvent the problems with compilation albums by running a UPnP server that honours artist metadata (MinimServer, Asset, etc.) on a networked device and simply ignore the Core's (US's) internal UPnP server.  A Raspberry Pi would be more than enough. As a bonus, one would be able to enjoy the advantages of a well implemented UPnP server also for albums which are not compilation albums. Of course, this workaround does not work if the Core (US) is used as a SPDIF player.

You are right. If a 3rd party UPnP server is used, then this problem might go away. I used the Core as a SPDIF player because when I play my music via UPnP it just doesn't sound as good. There have been numerous suggestions how to improve the SQ via LAN. Unfortunately for many of us not all the suggestions can be implemented due to infrastructure issues. That said, I am going to look into improving my network at some point. Perhaps move from my Cinnamon to a Vodka and/or add an isolator....

Richard Choong posted:

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Choong posted:

Richard,

How do you deal with compilation CDs?  The way the Core sorts its music doesn't appear to allow the Naim app to read artistes and songs found in a compilation CD under the Artist and Song lists. 

Richard Dane posted:

 

Richard, I generally play files as albums.  Not sure I've noticed anything awry with the few compilations I've ripped thus far.  I'll check it out sometime.  

I think this is a valid criticism: a compilation album will show the artist for each and every track as 'Various', which is useless. I've tried moving the album to the downloads folder and adding the artist for each track using Metadatics, but this is no use, as the app then displays each track as a separate album. I find the best solution is often to open the much-maligned Rovi booklet, which generally shows the track listing along with the correct artist for each one.

(As a dinosaur, I am assuming that this is relevant to the Core, as it's what I've found on my Unitiserve.) 

I understand that the Core and the US make the files in the downloads folder available on the LAN. Thus, one could likely circumvent the problems with compilation albums by running a UPnP server that honours artist metadata (MinimServer, Asset, etc.) on a networked device and simply ignore the Core's (US's) internal UPnP server.  A Raspberry Pi would be more than enough. As a bonus, one would be able to enjoy the advantages of a well implemented UPnP server also for albums which are not compilation albums. Of course, this workaround does not work if the Core (US) is used as a SPDIF player.

You are right. If a 3rd party UPnP server is used, then this problem might go away. I used the Core as a SPDIF player because when I play my music via UPnP it just doesn't sound as good. There have been numerous suggestions how to improve the SQ via LAN. Unfortunately for many of us not all the suggestions can be implemented due to infrastructure issues. That said, I am going to look into improving my network at some point. Perhaps move from my Cinnamon to a Vodka and/or add an isolator....

vodka, isolator, linear ps on the switch, some caviar....and you will forget spdif. But no too much vodka....

I love my core so far; but the software is still a bit wonky. I wound up moving files by taking the old drive and putting it in a two drive inatek dock and rsyncing my old music. Seems everything is coming together though. It sounds terrific direct digital into my 272. Think it's a great device that is a couple firmware releases away from being really solid.

Richard Choong posted:

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Choong posted:

Richard,

How do you deal with compilation CDs?  The way the Core sorts its music doesn't appear to allow the Naim app to read artistes and songs found in a compilation CD under the Artist and Song lists. 

Richard Dane posted:

 

Richard, I generally play files as albums.  Not sure I've noticed anything awry with the few compilations I've ripped thus far.  I'll check it out sometime.  

I think this is a valid criticism: a compilation album will show the artist for each and every track as 'Various', which is useless. I've tried moving the album to the downloads folder and adding the artist for each track using Metadatics, but this is no use, as the app then displays each track as a separate album. I find the best solution is often to open the much-maligned Rovi booklet, which generally shows the track listing along with the correct artist for each one.

(As a dinosaur, I am assuming that this is relevant to the Core, as it's what I've found on my Unitiserve.) 

I understand that the Core and the US make the files in the downloads folder available on the LAN. Thus, one could likely circumvent the problems with compilation albums by running a UPnP server that honours artist metadata (MinimServer, Asset, etc.) on a networked device and simply ignore the Core's (US's) internal UPnP server.  A Raspberry Pi would be more than enough. As a bonus, one would be able to enjoy the advantages of a well implemented UPnP server also for albums which are not compilation albums. Of course, this workaround does not work if the Core (US) is used as a SPDIF player.

You are right. If a 3rd party UPnP server is used, then this problem might go away. I used the Core as a SPDIF player because when I play my music via UPnP it just doesn't sound as good. There have been numerous suggestions how to improve the SQ via LAN. Unfortunately for many of us not all the suggestions can be implemented due to infrastructure issues. That said, I am going to look into improving my network at some point. Perhaps move from my Cinnamon to a Vodka and/or add an isolator....

In this case, the only way to avoid the limitations of the Core's internal SPDIF player I am aware of would be to install MinimServers and upmpdcli on the Core itself.

This would make the Core a great UPnP server and SPDIF player with access to internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz and Google Music and full support for classical music indexing. Unfortunately, installing MinimServer and upmpdcli on the Core this is not supported, I understand.

The alternative, again, is to run the same pairing (MinimServers + upmpdcli) on a Raspberry Pi 3 with Hifiberry DIGI+ Pro and BNC connector for SPDIF output. The DIGI+ Pro comes with two high quality oscillators and provides galvanic isolation. Of course, we do not know whether the SPDIF signal of the Hifiberry is worse or better than that of the Core. It would be interesting to have a comparison. Again, the music files could stay on the Core although, in this case, it would make more sense to have them on a USB drive directly connected to the Pi. An additional advantage of this solution is that it does not need a wired LAN connection: the Pi 3 comes with a wireless interface that is more than enough to control music replay. You wouldn't be able to use the Naim app as a control point, however. The Naim app does not support the upmpdcli renderer. Linn Kazoo, Bubble UPnP, Lumin and other open home compatible control points would work fine. 

[@mention:23389351206659471] - Core is a UPnP server. It seems you know so little of the Core itself that you have now managed to confuse UPnP playback with S/PDIF playback. 

You cointinue mixing server functionalities with streamer / renderer functionalities too.

Adam Zielinski posted:

[@mention:23389351206659471] - Core is a UPnP server. It seems you know so little of the Core itself that you have now managed to confuse UPnP playback with S/PDIF playback. 

You cointinue mixing server functionalities with streamer / renderer functionalities too.

Adam, you seem to have misunderstood my post. The Core is a ripping station, a UPnP server and a SPDIF player.

Richard uses the Core as a SPDIF player as he seems to have found that, in his system, the Core as a SPDIF player sounds better than as a UPnP server.

When used as a SPDIF player (in much the way as when used as a UPnP server), unfortunately, the Core has problems in dealing with compilation albums, let apart indexing classical music contents.

Hence my suggestions. I think that I understand reasonably well the functionalities of UPnP servers and renderers as I routinely use both in my systems: typically, I run a UPnP server (MinimServer) and a MPD-based UPnP renderer (upmpdcli) on the same device. This is a very effective and yet underestimated setup. It gives one all the advantages of UPnP streaming (inclusive flexibility of control, gapless replay, multi-room support, etc.) and of USB or SPDIF replay.

In contrast to the Core's UPnP server, MinimServer offers great support for indexing classical music. Another advantage is transcoding. The advantage of upmpdcli over the Core's SPDIF player is support for internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz and Google Music.

MinimServer + upmpdcli is a very effective and simple solution, especially if one runs them in the same box. You should really have a look at it!

I have to agree that it is a pity that it is not possible for the Core to transfer FLAC to WAV ... the HDX was perfectly capable of doing that ...

Klout10 posted:

I have to agree that it is a pity that it is not possible for the Core to transfer FLAC to WAV ... the HDX was perfectly capable of doing that ...

I think I remember reading something from Naim in the Forum which said it was on the roadmap......

nbpf posted:

Richard uses the Core as a SPDIF player as he seems to have found that, in his system, the Core as a SPDIF player sounds better than as a UPnP server.

Really?  I'm fairly sure I haven't made any proclamations with regard to the Core's performance via s/pdif vs. upnp.

Yes, I use it via s/pdif locally in to the DAC but it's not because it sounds "better" than as a Upnp server. I haven't done a comparison.  It's because I'm using it in a system where before I had a computer feeding a USB to s/pdif converter into the DAC, so the core has just supplanted the computer.

It suits that particular system.  I have streamers elsewhere, but with my appalling internet, streaming services beyond local are pretty much unworkable.

Maybe it was the other Richard??

Richard Dane posted:

nbpf posted:

Richard uses the Core as a SPDIF player as he seems to have found that, in his system, the Core as a SPDIF player sounds better than as a UPnP server.

Really?  I'm fairly sure I haven't made any proclamations with regard to the Core's performance via s/pdif vs. upnp.

Yes, I use it via s/pdif locally in to the DAC but it's not because it sounds "better" than as a Upnp server. I haven't done a comparison.  It's because I'm using it in a system where before I had a computer feeding a USB to s/pdif converter into the DAC, so the core has just supplanted the computer.

It suits that particular system.  I have streamers elsewhere, but with my appalling internet, streaming services beyond local are pretty much unworkable.

In my reply to Adam, I meant to quote Richard Choong's post, sorry for the confusion Richard Dane!

Ah yes, good call Chris, maybe the other Richard.  Apologies...

Richard Dane posted:

nbpf posted:

Richard uses the Core as a SPDIF player as he seems to have found that, in his system, the Core as a SPDIF player sounds better than as a UPnP server.

Really?  I'm fairly sure I haven't made any proclamations with regard to the Core's performance via s/pdif vs. upnp.

Yes, I use it via s/pdif locally in to the DAC but it's not because it sounds "better" than as a Upnp server. I haven't done a comparison.  It's because I'm using it in a system where before I had a computer feeding a USB to s/pdif converter into the DAC, so the core has just supplanted the computer.

It suits that particular system.  I have streamers elsewhere, but with my appalling internet, streaming services beyond local are pretty much unworkable.

I can confirm that nbpf was referring to me...Richard (C).  

In my experience it sounds better via S/PDIF than UpNP. UPnP is at least as good as the UPnP from Minim or Synology, I can't really tell great difference. S/PDIF it really shines and is a phenomenal source.

DUPREE posted:

In my experience it sounds better via S/PDIF than UpNP. UPnP is at least as good as the UPnP from Minim or Synology, I can't really tell great difference. S/PDIF it really shines and is a phenomenal source.

Could not agree more!

Cbr600 posted:

Thanks for suggestion David, but when issue first raised with customer support, they advise hat only rips directly made in core will go into the music folder, all other rips, including those made on HDX actually go into the download folder.

this is exactly where they went initially, and were easily accessed for some weeks, until the download folder disappeared.

your suggestion on reformatting the core drive was also done , again as suggested by customer support , but this made no difference, the core still does not show a download folder.

i have tried a number of things as requested by Phil, including using a sub stick to format and put music onto, but again no sign if a download folder. This was done at customer support request 2 weeks ago now, and reported back, since which I get no response from them, irrespective of how many emails I send them

Hi Paul,

If you import a music store from an "old" server (HDX / UnitiServe or NS0x) then the music from that music store should go into the Music store on the Core (not the downloads folder) as long as it is either a valid music store or music store backup.

I assure you that I am trying to progress your issue at this end and it is one of the things that is pushed every week at my weekly meeting with the R&D director.

Best regards

Phil

Klout10 posted:

David, before my HDX went belly-up, I've made a copy of my music to a QNAP NAS. In the last couple of months, I've made some minor changes to the metadata using MP3Tag. If I would get a Uniti Core, how do I transfer my music? Would it be best to copy everything to the download folder? Or let the Core descide??

Hi,

When you say that you've modified metadata do you mean on the files in the MQ folder or the LQ folder? If you've modified them in the LQ folder then those tags will not be accessed by the Core however if you've got the files in the MQ folder stored as FLACs and you've edited those then they will be inconsistent with the existing database files. They should still import (but dropping the changes that you've made with MP3Tag) but unfortunately it's not possible for me to guarantee that they will import correctly if the store has been manually modified.

Best Regards

Phil

Adam Zielinski posted:

If one knows what one is doing, sub-folders can be added manually to a main 'Rips' folder as long as they have been created using a US/HDX (and presumably Core).

But I would recommend this only for experienced users. 

Hi,

Exactly ... I've had some "fun" times in the past manually recreating files and data when customers music stores have been manually edited (and due to my own version of extreme "data OCD" I will sometimes go in and manually edit my own music stores) but it isn't for the faint-hearted and I have managed to break my own databases in the past so isn't something to be done at all lightly.

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

Klout10 posted:

David, before my HDX went belly-up, I've made a copy of my music to a QNAP NAS. In the last couple of months, I've made some minor changes to the metadata using MP3Tag. If I would get a Uniti Core, how do I transfer my music? Would it be best to copy everything to the download folder? Or let the Core descide??

Hi,

When you say that you've modified metadata do you mean on the files in the MQ folder or the LQ folder? If you've modified them in the LQ folder then those tags will not be accessed by the Core however if you've got the files in the MQ folder stored as FLACs and you've edited those then they will be inconsistent with the existing database files. They should still import (but dropping the changes that you've made with MP3Tag) but unfortunately it's not possible for me to guarantee that they will import correctly if the store has been manually modified.

Best Regards

Phil

So, I'm probably better of transferring everything to the download folder. Since no editing should be made to these files anyway ... 

Can anyone confirm that all metadata edits will be intact in this case?

Klout10 posted:

Phil Harris posted:

Klout10 posted:

David, before my HDX went belly-up, I've made a copy of my music to a QNAP NAS. In the last couple of months, I've made some minor changes to the metadata using MP3Tag. If I would get a Uniti Core, how do I transfer my music? Would it be best to copy everything to the download folder? Or let the Core descide??

Hi,

When you say that you've modified metadata do you mean on the files in the MQ folder or the LQ folder? If you've modified them in the LQ folder then those tags will not be accessed by the Core however if you've got the files in the MQ folder stored as FLACs and you've edited those then they will be inconsistent with the existing database files. They should still import (but dropping the changes that you've made with MP3Tag) but unfortunately it's not possible for me to guarantee that they will import correctly if the store has been manually modified.

Best Regards

Phil

So, I'm probably better of transferring everything to the download folder. Since no editing should be made to these files anyway ... 

Can anyone confirm that all metadata edits will be intact in this case?

I really don't think that is the right conclusion! If they go into the music folder then you can edit with the app but not a PC. If you put them into the downloads folder then you can edit with a PC but not the app.

I don't think that you will definitely retain all the edits if you put the whole lot into the downloads folder because the Core will ignore the special Naim files in cases where they exist for files in the music folder. But I must admit this is at the edge of my knowledge. So maybe Phil can give more authoritative advice?

if it were me, I would import everything and see what happens. If you don't like the result you can always do it again a different way.

best

David

[@mention:1566878604003829] - irrespective of what you do (as David advised above there are various options) the user-edited metadata will remain intact. There is no automatic metadata overwrite / removal

I think Adam is being a bit optimistic! I found quite a lot of my metadata and album artwork was wrong on import from a US, even with the new Core firmware and latest app. It's easy enough to edit the albums in the music folder with the IOS app though.

best

David