Units core- short lived ?

David Hendon posted:

I think Adam is being a bit optimistic! I found quite a lot of my metadata and album artwork was wrong on import from a US, even with the new Core firmware and latest app. It's easy enough to edit the albums in the music folder with the IOS app though.

best

David

If I would copy all my music to the 'download' folder, will the metadata still be intact?

Phil Harris posted:

Cbr600 posted:

Thanks for suggestion David, but when issue first raised with customer support, they advise hat only rips directly made in core will go into the music folder, all other rips, including those made on HDX actually go into the download folder.

this is exactly where they went initially, and were easily accessed for some weeks, until the download folder disappeared.

your suggestion on reformatting the core drive was also done , again as suggested by customer support , but this made no difference, the core still does not show a download folder.

i have tried a number of things as requested by Phil, including using a sub stick to format and put music onto, but again no sign if a download folder. This was done at customer support request 2 weeks ago now, and reported back, since which I get no response from them, irrespective of how many emails I send them

Hi Paul,

If you import a music store from an "old" server (HDX / UnitiServe or NS0x) then the music from that music store should go into the Music store on the Core (not the downloads folder) as long as it is either a valid music store or music store backup.

I assure you that I am trying to progress your issue at this end and it is one of the things that is pushed every week at my weekly meeting with the R&D director.

Best regards

Phil

Phil,

see below copy of previous email issued by Naim help desk, which appears to be at odds with details above?

I appreciate your continued actions to sort this out, but the email below, and the problem has been with the support team since 3rd March, so 3 months with no solution is a real concern

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your email, the download folder on the core is where you want to transfer to when importing music from elsewhere, the music folder is just for the music you rip via the disc drive. So currently what you are doing is correct, it can cause issues with ripping if transferred directly to the music folder so it is restricted to prevent any issues.

Kind Regards,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam
Mu-so Support

Klout10 posted:

David Hendon posted:

I think Adam is being a bit optimistic! I found quite a lot of my metadata and album artwork was wrong on import from a US, even with the new Core firmware and latest app. It's easy enough to edit the albums in the music folder with the IOS app though.

best

David

If I would copy all my music to the 'download' folder, will the metadata still be intact?

I'm not sure to be honest. If the Core leaves it alone, then yes, I guess probably it will leave it alone, but as I said before it would be good if Phil could confirm. Personally I have found the Core often doesn't behave like Naim says it does.

best

David

Klout10 posted:

David Hendon posted:

I think Adam is being a bit optimistic! I found quite a lot of my metadata and album artwork was wrong on import from a US, even with the new Core firmware and latest app. It's easy enough to edit the albums in the music folder with the IOS app though.

best

David

If I would copy all my music to the 'download' folder, will the metadata still be intact?

The answer to your question very much depends on what you mean by being intact. As far as I know, the Core infers, for a given file, the values of certain indexes ("Artist", for instance, if I am not mistaken) from the name of the folder that contains that file. Thus, I would expect an embedded "Artist" value to be overridden by the Core's system. This does not mean that the embedded value is modified, of course. The value might be intact but simply ignored.

For a given file, you can check if this is the case by accessing that file through the Core's UPnP server and via a UPnP server that honours embedded metadata, for instance MinimServer. You will have to run MinimServer (or Asset, minidlna, etc.) on a networked machine as the Core does not support installing third-party UPnP servers, unfortunately.

Naim has not provided any clear specification of how the import functionalities for the Core are meant to work. Thus, it is impossible to know what are mere implementational errors and what are design weaknesses.

I can imagine that using folder names for deducing metadata values was a quick and dirty workaround, perhaps motivated by tight deadlines. A clean approach should always prioritize embedded index values. Naim appears to have violated this rule in dealing with some of the metadata of files in the dowloads folder. Moreover, they are still relying on the old and very limited US proprietary database for managing the metadata of the files in the music folder. It is not very surprising that such a two-tier approach on two different platform yields a mess. 

Perhaps you could try to transfer two files, one that you know for sure to have modified and one that you know for sure not to have modified, to both the music and the downloads folders of the Core and try to figure out how the import functionalities of the Core actually work.

I believe that a detailed understanding of how the import functionalities of the Core work would be very useful not only for Core users but also for Naim.

Reading comments like above I seriosuly wish there was a 'dislike' button.

A forum member helbent on proving that a product is wrong becasue it was not designed along the lines of that forum member's wishlist. Irrespective of what one says, it is always wrong becase the forum member says so. How irritating this has become....

Adam Zielinski posted:

Reading comments like above I seriosuly wish there was a 'dislike' button.

A forum member helbent on proving that a product is wrong becasue it was not designed along the lines of that forum member's wishlist. Irrespective of what one says, it is always wrong becase the forum member says so. How irritating this has become....

The Core doesn't work!

Ready your own reply this time next year and it will all make sense to you.

Christine posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Reading comments like above I seriosuly wish there was a 'dislike' button.

A forum member helbent on proving that a product is wrong becasue it was not designed along the lines of that forum member's wishlist. Irrespective of what one says, it is always wrong becase the forum member says so. How irritating this has become....

The Core doesn't work!

Ready your own reply this time next year and it will all make sense to you.

adam has not the core but continue to defend this product. But he will say to me again that i make a projection...  A wish is to have a product that works as advertised, for what someone paid for: unfortunately it doesn't work as advertised, i have tested myself at home and users continue to have problems with it, 7 months after!  importing and transferring files go in pair with errors or disappearing metadata, not acceptable !   naim has to fix all these issues, and stop before selling this product, until it works perfectly.

Adam Zielinski posted:

Reading comments like above I seriosuly wish there was a 'dislike' button.

A forum member helbent on proving that a product is wrong becasue it was not designed along the lines of that forum member's wishlist. Irrespective of what one says, it is always wrong becase the forum member says so. How irritating this has become....

You may not like my post but it answers the question raised by Klout10, I believe. That a UPnP server should prioritize embedded metadata is, by large, a well established implicit rule adopted by virtually all popular UPnP servers. That a failure to do so may have consequences on the way compilation albums are handled is obvious. That Naim and Core users do not precisely know how the Core's import functionalities work or are supposed to work is also quite obvious from  David's answer to the question raised by Klout10 and by previous posts on the same subject, including your owns.

I am not actually trying to prove anything to be "wrong" if you see what I mean. The thing is simply that Naim have released an ill conceived, incomplete, unfinished product. They have counted on inexperienced users not to realize its most obvious deficiencies and on experienced users to find out workarounds. These are, in my view, levels of negligence and incompetence that deserve a response. Hence my criticism. It's just my opinion, of course. Other may think that the Core is a great product and this is also fine. 

Cbr600 posted:

Phil Harris posted:

Cbr600 posted:

Thanks for suggestion David, but when issue first raised with customer support, they advise hat only rips directly made in core will go into the music folder, all other rips, including those made on HDX actually go into the download folder.

this is exactly where they went initially, and were easily accessed for some weeks, until the download folder disappeared.

your suggestion on reformatting the core drive was also done , again as suggested by customer support , but this made no difference, the core still does not show a download folder.

i have tried a number of things as requested by Phil, including using a sub stick to format and put music onto, but again no sign if a download folder. This was done at customer support request 2 weeks ago now, and reported back, since which I get no response from them, irrespective of how many emails I send them

Hi Paul,

If you import a music store from an "old" server (HDX / UnitiServe or NS0x) then the music from that music store should go into the Music store on the Core (not the downloads folder) as long as it is either a valid music store or music store backup.

I assure you that I am trying to progress your issue at this end and it is one of the things that is pushed every week at my weekly meeting with the R&D director.

Best regards

Phil

Phil,

see below copy of previous email issued by Naim help desk, which appears to be at odds with details above?

I appreciate your continued actions to sort this out, but the email below, and the problem has been with the support team since 3rd March, so 3 months with no solution is a real concern

 

Hi Paul,

Thank you for your email, the download folder on the core is where you want to transfer to when importing music from elsewhere, the music folder is just for the music you rip via the disc drive. So currently what you are doing is correct, it can cause issues with ripping if transferred directly to the music folder so it is restricted to prevent any issues.

Kind Regards,

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sam
Mu-so Support

Hi Paul,

I suspect that Sam has simply not included the importing of existing stores into his answer as what he is saying is correct but simply misses the scenario of importing an existing store...

The Downloads folder is where you would put music that you are importing from elsewhere such as iTunes or music downloaded from A.N.Other service.

The Music folder is where music goes that has been ripped from CD via the optical drive.

If you use the "Import Music" functionality of the Core then if you import an existing music store (from an "old" server) then it should pick up that it is an old server structure and import it into the Music folder - if you import a collection of music that isn't a music store then it should pull it into the Downloads folder.

I did email you twice yesterday - once earlier in the day to let you know I was going to be discussing your issue with the R&D team that afternoon and then again in the evening - did you not get my emails?

Best

Phil

David Hendon posted:

Klout10 posted:

David Hendon posted:

I think Adam is being a bit optimistic! I found quite a lot of my metadata and album artwork was wrong on import from a US, even with the new Core firmware and latest app. It's easy enough to edit the albums in the music folder with the IOS app though.

best

David

If I would copy all my music to the 'download' folder, will the metadata still be intact?

I'm not sure to be honest. If the Core leaves it alone, then yes, I guess probably it will leave it alone, but as I said before it would be good if Phil could confirm. Personally I have found the Core often doesn't behave like Naim says it does.

best

David

Hi,

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

Hi,

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

Thankx Phil - clear, as always !

Phil Harris posted:

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

This is actually perfect and the way it should work. However what is disapointing is that when you change the ID3 with Metadatics or other ID3 program it does not index them. I am not sure what happens under the cover, but when you rebuilt it takes a long time, where Minim is instant, it seems the underlying way the data is being handled is heavy handed. It is just my opinion; but I would think that the bulk of all use cases would be solved if you could just edit the metadata with a metadata editor and the core would resepect and allow you to categorize/subcategorize on these fields. Genre or some field to separate large collections into components would be a super start. 

DUPREE posted:

Phil Harris posted:

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

This is actually perfect and the way it should work. However what is disapointing is that when you change the ID3 with Metadatics or other ID3 program it does not index them. I am not sure what happens under the cover, but when you rebuilt it takes a long time, where Minim is instant, it seems the underlying way the data is being handled is heavy handed. It is just my opinion; but I would think that the bulk of all use cases would be solved if you could just edit the metadata with a metadata editor and the core would resepect and allow you to categorize/subcategorize on these fields. Genre or some field to separate large collections into components would be a super start. 

Dupree and Phil,

Reading between the lines of various posts regarding the Core, it seems that the metadata issues for Classical and Compilations could be solved by ripping the CD, then moving it from the "Music" share/folder to the "Downloads" share/folder where it could be edited with a metadata editor for "Composer", "Performer", etc.  Is that correct?  And would the Naim app be able to search those additional metadata tags in the "Downloads" share/folder?  The whole point is to be able to find a particular piece of music via an easy search mechanism, particularly for Classical music where someone may have multiple pieces by Palestrina which are performed by different choirs.  A very, very, very common occurrence in some genres.

What makes the unknowns about metadata issue even more frustrating is that I have heard the Core vs UnitiServe (same piece of music) and the Core sounded noticeably better.  It was a similar to hearing the UnitiServe vs Minimserver, where the UnitiServe was significantly better.  In this case, the dealer (same dealer that Dupree uses, I believe) played a song through a SuperUniti served by the UnitiServe, then the same song from the same drive, only served by Minimserver.  The UnitiServe version sounded much better, and was immediately noticeable.  Much lower noise floor. 

So the sound quality is fantastic and very tempting.  The problem is that I don't want Naim to "re-imagine my music collection" to the point that I can't find it or organize it according to common, basic, user-friendly metadata fields.  I want to re-imagine my music collection by being able to easily find the music I am wanting to re-imagine with Naim's well know sound-quality magic.  That doesn't seem to be what the Core is providing at this point.  Hopefully, it will soon be provided regardless of what they have said with the previous firmware release.

Regards,

Clark.

I am absolutely fine with the idea that the "Music" folder is static for rips and moving everything to downloads that needs custom tags. Most of my music is not from ripping CD's on the Uniti Core, it is in the downloads folder. What I think solves 95% of these problems is allowing music to be organized by your own metatdata tags at least for downloads folder. Take a look at Minim, this is an example of a very well working UPnP server. 

I don't think you can directly move a rip from the music folder to the downloads folder because this is a gross form of editing and will probably break the indexing. (And access to the music folder is read only anyway).

But a workaround might be to copy an album in the music folder and paste it to the downloads folder, then delete the rip in the music folder using the app.

Of course this would mean you can't edit the rip with the Naim app. And I don't know what if anything the Core would do with rips now in the downloads folder that have the Naim-specific metadata files still intact.

Best

David

I honestly couldn't care less about being able to edit the item in the NAIM app. Editing this stuff on a phone is tedius and is never going to support the features, workflow and automation of a product like metadatics... I just want to be able to edit the metadata in a standard fashion with a metadata editior and have the Core be able to understand it and be able to sort and arrange by these fields. I would even accept just a manual folder view if this is not possible. I just need to be able to segregate music and browse it in catagories or subgroups.

I'm reading through this thread and I have to say how easy it is to have all my music on a NAS ...

The nas can't be any good, as it only costs £200. 

Sorry, yeah that's right!

CEverett posted:

DUPREE posted:

Phil Harris posted:

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

This is actually perfect and the way it should work. However what is disapointing is that when you change the ID3 with Metadatics or other ID3 program it does not index them. I am not sure what happens under the cover, but when you rebuilt it takes a long time, where Minim is instant, it seems the underlying way the data is being handled is heavy handed. It is just my opinion; but I would think that the bulk of all use cases would be solved if you could just edit the metadata with a metadata editor and the core would resepect and allow you to categorize/subcategorize on these fields. Genre or some field to separate large collections into components would be a super start. 

Dupree and Phil,

Reading between the lines of various posts regarding the Core, it seems that the metadata issues for Classical and Compilations could be solved by ripping the CD, then moving it from the "Music" share/folder to the "Downloads" share/folder where it could be edited with a metadata editor for "Composer", "Performer", etc.  Is that correct?  And would the Naim app be able to search those additional metadata tags in the "Downloads" share/folder? 

My understanding is that the answer to your question is negative but it would be nice if Naim would provide an authoritative answer.

The discussion in https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ore-downloads-folder strongly suggests that the Core ignores certain embedded metadata or, at least, does not prioritize the search for certain index values -- for "Artist" values, for instance -- on those embedded metadata.

I have suggested many times in this forum what you are proposing. I thought it would be a good way for coping with the most severe limitations of the metadata database used for managing the metadata of the files in the music folder: exporting the music folder data (ideally in a non-proprietary format that well supports metadata editing) with a safe procedure sanctioned by Naim, doing whatever metadata editing is needed and importing the edited files in the downloads folder. Seems like a clean workflow not dissimilar from what one has anyway to do when ripping CDs on a computer.

Unfortunately, there have been a number of replies to this suggestion indicating that this would not achieve the expected goals: the procedure would work but the Core would possibly ignore some of the embedded metadata in the downloads folder.

So far, Naim has failed to confirm or confute these observations. They have also failed to specify which embedded metadata are actually honoured in the downloads folder and which are ignored. Naim also have failed to explain if the shortcomings in metadata management of files in the downloads folder are a consequence of design decisions, temporary solutions or implementational errors.

CEverett posted:

DUPREE posted:

Phil Harris posted:

The Core will not modify any files that are placed in the "Downloads" share so any metadata in files that are placed in the Downloads folder will be unchanged by the Core.

Best

Phil

This is actually perfect and the way it should work. However what is disapointing is that when you change the ID3 with Metadatics or other ID3 program it does not index them. I am not sure what happens under the cover, but when you rebuilt it takes a long time, where Minim is instant, it seems the underlying way the data is being handled is heavy handed. It is just my opinion; but I would think that the bulk of all use cases would be solved if you could just edit the metadata with a metadata editor and the core would resepect and allow you to categorize/subcategorize on these fields. Genre or some field to separate large collections into components would be a super start. 

...

The whole point is to be able to find a particular piece of music via an easy search mechanism, particularly for Classical music where someone may have multiple pieces by Palestrina which are performed by different choirs.  A very, very, very common occurrence in some genres.

What makes the unknowns about metadata issue even more frustrating is that I have heard the Core vs UnitiServe (same piece of music) and the Core sounded noticeably better.  It was a similar to hearing the UnitiServe vs Minimserver, where the UnitiServe was significantly better.  In this case, the dealer (same dealer that Dupree uses, I believe) played a song through a SuperUniti served by the UnitiServe, then the same song from the same drive, only served by Minimserver.  The UnitiServe version sounded much better, and was immediately noticeable.  Much lower noise floor. 

So the sound quality is fantastic and very tempting.  The problem is ...

Interesting observations on sound quality of the Core vs the UnitiServe, perhaps something for https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...in-the-way-it-sounds?

I have tried to make very clear  in many circumstances that the current implementation of the Core's UPnP server and SPDIF player are worthless for classical music collectors: an opera album typically contains dozen of files, each with potentially different values of the "Artist" index. Moreover, classical music collectors need customizable indexing.

Sadly, Naim appear to have come to the conclusion that they do not need to care for classical music listeners.

That's when I pull one of my 400 LPs out and give the LP12 a whirl. Stunningly good, on demand and with a decent sleeve art for these increasingly older eyes to oggle....I like to have variety of sources for this very reason

Hungryhalibut posted:

The nas can't be any good, as it only costs £200. 

Mine was £400, so must be twice as good!