Entry / Mid Level Amplification for Rega RP8/Apheta, Fono MC

Hi, Holmes.

I also have 99ish Planar3/Elys and found it a revelation with a Rega Fono into 112/150/FC2X.  Delightful.  In fact, it lost a tiny bit of magic/synergy when I traded up to the 552/500, if I am honest -- though many things changed at that time, including the house!  

Balance seems to be the key.  Mysterious business!  Overall, I have no regrets, though.  I might upgrade to an RP10 one day.

In general, I think you can pick your price point and strike at will.

Hope this helps, if only a little.

Best,

Nick

Nick - You're right in that balance is important, hence the post and the steer I'm looking for.

I'm liking the idea that an RP8 will deliver the improvements in source I'm looking for, but don't want to cramp it's style too much. I do have a few options in mind...

Holmes posted:

In February I posted about which way to take my plunge into Naim Amplification based on retaining my 1999 Rega Planar 3, with a new cartridge and a desire have a streaming solution. (thanks for all your contributions on the last thread.) In March I demoed a current Planar3/Elys2 with 272/200 vs (ND5XS)/NaitXS2 with a Rega Fono. At the time I thought, great the 272/200 really lifts the Planar 3 substantially over the XS2 and the streaming while better, isn't in a different league (272vsND5XS). The decision made on new 272 secondhand 200, phono stage TBA.

In a way I'm glad I've not yet been in a $$$ position to begin the upgrades. As since March I've bought a number of albums (vinyl) accompanied by FLAC files (on Bandcamp) and the physical medium is something I can't get away from. I find myself buying CD's if records aren't available.  I already have 300 or so vinyl albums so I've resolved to embrace that as my main source and look to a better turntable. Particularly when I can't drum up the enthusiasm to understand and invest further in a NAS or Naim Server on top of the streamer.

A further look and a fair bit of reading about current Rega turntables has led me to believe that an RP8/Apheta is the way to go. It's the less expensive than an ND5XS and represents real and ongoing design development in turntables, from when I bought my RP3 new in 1999. It kind of throws out the idea of a modern streamer for a while, but I find that I use online listening, to figure out what to buy physical copies of and I'm happy making big compromises on that, to reap rewards in the enjoyment of what I have already on vinyl.

So to the question; What integrated or pre/power amp either New, secondhand or new/secondhand combo would be a good start for an RP8/Apheta & a Fono MC phono stage, with the idea of a potential upgrade in the Amp department in a few years. I plan on listening to a couple/few options, but narrowing things down and debating options will be good. Speakers are ex demo ProAc 140Mk2's in a room say L8m x W4m x H3.2m, house design in process. 

cheers

Any combo would work

Depending on your budget and how many boxes you want

If possible get a homedemo

The RP8 is superb, in reality you can climb amplifiers as high as possible with this deck, some people even prefer it to the RP10.

The Naim 152/150 or 155 is very balanced sounding with a matching FC

A 282/HC/250 ,more power, is much more expensive

A SuperUniti is soon to be replaced, good offers on sale maybe, and future secured if you stream plus internet radio I believe. Iradio is a feature I like using on my Qute and you dont need a roof antenna

A s/h XS or 5Si amp is great too but you have quite a large room filling

Older olive or CB amplication is very good too but most of it need service by now beeing 20+ years old.

Lots of options

When going for a P3 replacement the new Planar 6/Ania may be out soon. If its going to represent 90% RP8 performance (just a wild guess) without the odd Skeletal looks, you may find the lower price matching or provide better amplication budget ?

Think rack too

For those interested in records and from what I read here on the forum, the type of preamplifier construction is significant to get the best from analogue replay. Worth using the search function and having a look at the benefits of 'through hole' construction rather than surface mount technology (or SMT).

Holmes posted:

So to the question; What integrated or pre/power amp either New, secondhand or new/secondhand combo would be a good start for an RP8/Apheta & a Fono MC phono stage, with the idea of a potential upgrade in the Amp department in a few years. I plan on listening to a couple/few options,

Realizing that your post is about pre/power amps and that you're considering the RP8/Apheta, I think your best bang for the buck would be to consider a higher level phono stage in the mix. The Rega Fono is a $400 stage. For an additional $400 to $500 you move into a range of phono stages that could warrant better upgrade results than $thousands spent on amplification. The greater detail, soundstaging, imaging, and bass control from a better phono stage will carry through with better amplification.

Two observations from my side:

RP8 / Apheta is too good for the Rega Fono. I would take a plunge and go for the Rega Aria straight away.

Given the above level of the source, SuperNait2 (assuming an integrated option is the only one) would be a good starting point, which will handle good sources in the future. It can also be upgraded with other classic series components: power supplies or power amps.

Holmes,

Vinyl being my main source, I'm using the combination that Adam suggests to stunning effect Rega RP8, Aria, SN2 and streaming purposes a Chord 2Qute.

I've recently added a Hicap DR, which has further enhanced the performance of my Supernait.

I would definitely recommend hearing this combination!

The Rega Fono is nice for £200, but I agree with others that an Aria would be very worthwhile if vinyl is to be your main source. 

I find the observation that the streaming side of the 272 / 200 was only a small improvement over the ND5 XS / Nait XS to be curious.  I went from a ND5 XS to a 272 and was able to get a fairly significant improvement while still using the Nait's poweramp.  On changing the poweramp to a NAP 300 and adding an external power supply to the 272 the improvement was dramatic (literally, not just much more information in the music but there is also more emotion and drama portrayed in the music!).  In any case as you found, the benefit of the 272 as a preamp is for vinyl considerable.

If you intend to have an upgrade path that involves both vinyl and streaming, then using the 272 as a preamp to a 200 is a really good start.  The 272 can live with some exceptional poweramps (i.e. 250DR and 300DR) and not be shown up particularly when an external a power supply (XPS DR or 555PS DR) is added.  It should also be noted that unlike separate streamers and preamps, adding a power supply to the 272 upgrades both the streamer and the pre-amp at the same time.

Thanks ChristopherM that was an interesting read about SMT, I had no idea! 

B_LUND - For a while I thought the Planar 6 would be the ideal, but considering the cost of ref. the ND5XS I had been considering, takes me straight to the RP8. I like that it's a bit of a wolf in sheep's clothing & when I saw the Fremer Rega factory tour on Youtube (Part 5) It was good to see the Planar 6 prototype using the same foam core as the RP8 and maybe I'll demo it, but the looks of RP8 are in it's favour for me. 

JOERAND & ADAM ZIELINSKI - Good call on the Aria. It makes sense to spend on the Pre-amp, I guess I thought the new Fono MC might be close to the Aria, although I've seen no reviews yet. 

ADAM & ARTFERG20 - Good to hear the SuperNait is up to snuff, it has to be in the picture, but I think I tend towards the 202/200 combination. 

HUGE - I guess I was more interesting hearing the vinyl capabilities in what I was listening to in that Demo so that's what I remembered from it.  I can't stretch the $$$ to a 272 from the get go. So a 202-s/h200 would be likely be the highest Pre-power I could manage.   

I do wonder what the Uniti-Nova will sound like in comparison to the SuperNait...

I use the Aria with an RP10+Aphelion. I have a RP8+Apheta which sounded especially good with a loan SuperCap DR (March 2016). Having gone through extensive testing of power cords since January 2017, I found that the 282's SuperCap DR and its NAPSC both greatly benefit from the Powerline Lite more than any other power cord including PLs. They all connect to the same dedicated radial. The PLs have never worked for me but the PL Lites are 1/6th of the price! The big difference made by these two Lites is better spatial separation, the sense that the vocalist/instrument is performing in the room, and the sound filling the room, instruments sounding natural and being exciting to listen to, and every track having an amazing ambiance. The PL Lite did not work on the 300DR which has the old MK plug, so for me it is not so good that the PL Lite is now the new standard power cord on Naim boxes.

I've upgraded lots of my system over the last 15 months trying to recreate the effect of that loan SuperCap DR with the RP8+Apheta+Aria. The PL Lite on the 282's NAPSC has made the biggest difference to achieving what I was looking for. Some have suggested that the fact that it controls the switches of the 282 is why it is so important to keep noise etc out via the NAPSC. 

I also have Isotek Optimums on my Aria and The NDAC's XPS DR. These were chosen after trying others. In fact I nearly stuck with the Rega standard power cord which compared with others preserved the emotional impact of the music, but the Optimum gave a much more detailed sound with the emotion as well. The Optimum also made the silences in the music really silent.

These are just my experiences, and you need to listen for yourself. I can say my CDs and vinyl are now amazing to listen to any time of day (the early hours used to be the best). It takes a long time to get all the bits working their best so don't be rushed when you loan stuff and never buy without first trying. 

Integrated - SN2. 

Pre-power 202 (or better)/200.

But I agree Adam's point about the phono stage.

Regards,

Lindsay.  

yo Holmes -- i'd get the Aria and a Nait 3 until you save enough dough for a 282/250 rig. been there, done that -- this is definitely what i would do, were i to embark on the journey again. 

YO Joe - thanks for the input. I guess it'll depend on the local S/H market here in NZ

I'm more likely to stick with my current Rega Brio than buy ancient Naim. I'd rather go for an available 152 / 200 S/H combo or new 202 / S/H 200, though I'll listen to a Supernait. As an end point for the foreseeable future I'd like an 272 because I fancy streaming + 250DR or what might replace them depending on when I feel the need. I have a feeling an RP8/Aria will keep me in awe for quite some time.

I have many other pursuits and while music is important, as in I can't stop discovering the new and enjoying the old, for me Hifi is like house renovation, it's got to be awesome and excite you every day, but you don't want to be thinking about changing it too often.

Holmes posted:

As an end point for the foreseeable future I'd like an 272 because .....

But won't that compromise the record player sound for the reason I've already outlined?

From what I read here on the forum, people who are well into their record players and also have streaming, tend to have separate preamps and streamers.

Christopher_M posted:

Holmes posted:

As an end point for the foreseeable future I'd like an 272 because .....

But won't that compromise the record player sound for the reason I've already outlined?

From what I read here on the forum, people who are well into their record players and also have streaming, tend to have separate preamps and streamers.

I started with similar objectives to Holmes, but as Christoper_M said it's hard to satisfy all one's needs with one box. There is also something about handling LPs and CDs that is more involving, and given the state of the new Uniti range I'd rather not have the frustration.

If you love vinyl then focus on that as a starter. The Aria is a really good Phono stage, and the Rega Couple interconnect is far better than any I tried up to £800. You will need a very expensive system before it becomes a weak link. Start with pre loved amplification.

Thanks Filipe. IMO RP8/ Apheta into Rega Aria (Filipe's suggested Rega Couple) and your existing Brio driving some speakers within its range and which are right for your room.... well, what a great place to be   :-)

Christopher_M posted:

Holmes posted:

As an end point for the foreseeable future I'd like an 272 because .....

But won't that compromise the record player sound for the reason I've already outlined?

From what I read here on the forum, people who are well into their record players and also have streaming, tend to have separate preamps and streamers.

The separate streamer and preamp route will cost about £1-3000 more before you get either streaming or vinyl to a higher sound quality.

Yes seperates can be upgraded (i.e. replaced) to get better SQ then the 272, but at considerably more expense - there's always a degree of compromise due to cost (unless you have unlimited budget, and even then there's still the inevitable engineering compromises).

I'd suggest it's worth thinking through where you want to end up. You say that streaming is not really important, yet you say that the 272 is the longer term objective, which doesn't entirely make sense. The 272 is very capable as a preamp, and is nearer to the 282 than the 202 - I've listened to an NDX, 282, 250DR and my 272/XPSDR/250DR and couldn't say which was better. The 272 would work really well with the RP8 and Aria. But if you don't want a streamer, a Supernait 2 sounds ideal. I don't understand this desire for separate boxes based on theory that separates will always be better. Just listen without prejudice and see which option floats your boat. 

Huge posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Holmes posted:

As an end point for the foreseeable future I'd like an 272 because .....

But won't that compromise the record player sound for the reason I've already outlined?

From what I read here on the forum, people who are well into their record players and also have streaming, tend to have separate preamps and streamers.

The separate streamer and preamp route will cost about £1-3000 more before you get either streaming or vinyl to a higher sound quality.

Yes seperates can be upgraded (i.e. replaced) to get better SQ then the 272, but at considerably more expense - there's always a degree of compromise due to cost (unless you have unlimited budget, and even then there's still the inevitable engineering compromises).

You must think I don't realise that, and nor does Holmes! Life's a compromise. How much does Holmes want to compromise? That's up to him.

The only way to find out is to actually try the lp playback through the 272 and 282 to see if there's any difference. Might be a different result to the NDX/272 comparison, the streaming might be very close but who's to say the vinyl playback will be.

How about a cheaper streaming option  like a raspberry pi  with a separate USB dac like a Chord Hugo/2Qute into either 282/200 or a Supernait 2 but having said that they're are several 272's hanging around the various used sites that are a bargain at the moment the imminent release of new Uniti products seems to have pushed prices down.