uniti with sub woofer - transition frequency? (big speakers, small speakers ...)

Integrating a sub is a LOT more than just the two crossover frequencies.

I suggest getting a calibrated microphone (such as a miniDSP UMIK-1) and a copy of REW then you can really work out how to setup a sub in your room, including the group delays (it's also useful to have a DSP in the audio chain to the sub to control how the sub drives the primary room modes).

The sub out will always send the full frequency range, so you need to set its volume and crossover point via the sub itself. I tried Motive 1s once and they had so much bass they made everything sound like a reggae sound system. I cannot imagine a situation why anyone might want a sub with them. Perhaps adding a used 200 to the Uniti might get the speakers working better, to the extent that you wouldn't want a sub. Just a thought. 

HH, I believe the Uniti 1 had a sub out with an optional 100Hz filter high pass filter applied to the main speaker output.  The sub out is still unfiltered as you say, but as long as adjustment is possible on the sub, it won't matter. The 'Large speaker + sub' option is almost certainly the one to use here.

Thank you for your answers. You confirm my understanding of the manual's info, especially after reading it again now. So the woofer out channel delivers the whole frequency range and the speaker out depends: With big speakers they get the whole frequency range as well, set to small speakers they are cut off at 100Hz. (Just for interest: Is this the same with the settings big vs. small speakers without sub woofers?)

Huge, the sub woofer is a Merovinger active, controlled 1/30 woofer including a DSP and calibrating microphone. So I hope I find a good sounding setup. It is just a testing device. I will see, if I will go this way in the end.

Hungryhalibut, the Motive-1 speakers indeed are capable of playing bass. In some tracks I wonder how deep they seem to go, because in others I am missing bass. Comparing it to other (high end) hifi systems, I now know that there are low bass components completely missing with my system. One track that I remember is "Airborne" from Jaga Jazzist that has some very deep bass punches in the beginning. With my system I only can guess they are there. Also some jazz or even classical music requires some deeper bass to make bass drums sound more natural, as well as deep playing contrabasses or grand pianos. I also think that it heavily depends on your room you are listening in. It seems that my room is a little bass shy. I already have tried many speaker and listening positions. This changes the bass, but I think the membranes are too small to deliver a really deep going bass.

The Neat Motive 1s go down to 25Hz, the lowest note on a grand piano is 27.5Hz.

If you don't get the lowest note on a piano, something else is wrong and a sub of itself won't cure that.  I suspect that the primary room resonance modes are messing with your perception of the bass response.

I don't know how good the Motive 1 is at the bass end - given the low cost one might not be surprised if the bass isn't as deep and/or controlled as some other speakers, while some people have said they found it overblown, but that will depend very much on the room, the rest of the system, and personal preference/liking for bass.

Regardless, if they are not giving the bass you want it seems to me that an assessment of the room would be appropriate before trying to set up a sub. REW (Room Equalisation Wizard), which is free software, as mentioned by Huge is a very useful tool - if the microphone that came with the sub has a usb output then you wouldn't even need to buy a microphone. With REW you can identify if it is the room causing a lack of bass, and possibly improve speaker ans/or listening position before trying the sub, and then use it to tailor the sub position and settings, though it is possible that the sub's own measurement and setup capability might do the latter just as well.

I still think it would be a good idea to try a 200 with the Uniti before getting a sub. The extra control may be the answer. 

I do not think that the Motive-1 goes down to 25Hz. My dealer told me that they reach 29Hz and even this I cannot believe. (Hz at -3db would be interesting). I did search through the web but could not find a frequency diagram for the Motive-1 speakers.

I know that the room has a big impact on the sound. I heared my system (really my devices: uniti, cable and speakers) in a dealers room and it did sound much better there. This was the reason why I started to experiment with absorber foams and positioning of speakers and listening point as far as it is possible. It did help, but not for the deep bass. If it was a room modes problem I should hear the deep bass at other positions in the room, but there it only gets boomy, not deeper.

Trying to measure the room with a microphone is one thing that I want to do. I also think about a room correction hardware, but this would mean that I had to replace the uniti completely as it does not make sense to use it only as a DAC and amplifier IMHO. Also I am a bit afraid if heavily processing the sound could destroy the musicality of the sound.

Upgrading to a better amplifier is another idea that I had. Maybe I should ask my dealer for a test device. (Asking him about this regarding the bass punch he meant that this would not help. I should first try bigger speakers. The amp will only help in more details, space and room in the music...) But is the NAP 200 good enough to make a big step from the uniti 1 or should it be an even more expensive amp? And even with a more powerful amp: I cannot believe that a 12cm membrane (or 1.5 of them) can play the deep bass that I am missing. I have heared a Neat Momentum 4i at my dealer to compare it to the Motive-1. The Momentum is going much deeper: The right direction for me, but it still could be a bit more, compared to some active speakers that I have heared. Also the tweeter of the Neats is a little bit to sharp in my ears. This was the reason why I did not upgrade to the momentums. Now I think it maybe is a good way to try to separate the bass part from the rest, so I can first find the right bass part and then maybe another (smaller?) speaker. Or I keep the Motives? I am very unsure where my hifi way will lead me.

Gert,

First step no is to get a copy of REW and do the room simulation.  You may find out that there 's a fundamental problem in your room.

Then you can start thinking about solutions.

Incidentally better amps DO help with control of bass as they can control the speaker cones better and provide better transient currents into complex loads like speakers.

Digital signal processing is definitely not the answer to missing bass (or other frequencies), whether caused by the room or speaker roll-off (at least not unless you have a very high power amp and speakers capable of taking a lot more power) - it really is only good for taming peaks and relatively minor smoothing, and overprocessing can indeed kill the musicality. Whilst REW's name suggests that is its funtion, I was only recommending its excellent measurement capability. 

In my own rather troublesome room my initial planned room layout simply sounded awful, with serious bass cancelation. Using REW I found a completely different layout tbat worked, far easier than I would have by trial and error shifting heavy speakers and furniture, and was able to fine-tune around that position quite easily, and am now quite happy with the positioning, though some room treatment would improve things more, which I will attempt one day when I have time.

IB and I are suggesting the same thing.

Start by using the room simulation to work out some layouts that you can test.  Change the room to each of those in turn and then measure the response.  pick the best and make smaller adjustments till it's optimised.

Any problems remaining will need acoustic room treatment, then consider changes of equipment, only then think about using DRC as a last resort (N.B. with small speakers and a sub, not the Motive 1s)

Hungryhalibut posted:

I still think it would be a good idea to try a 200 with the Uniti before getting a sub. The extra control may be the answer. 

Adding a 200 to my Superuniti did give some better control, but the change wasn't dramatic. It was upgrading the preamp that really improved everything, and gave tighter, punchier, more extended bass. I didn't feel that the 200 in itself was a worthwhile upgrade for the money, but it made sense only as the first step in a complete system upgrade. 

Same here. Adding a 200 to my U2 added very little to it. 

It's experience that counts - which is why I suggested that it 'might' be a good idea. Personally, having suffered at the hands of a Motive 1s, I'd get some more copacetic speakers, rather than adding a subwoofer. But who knows - rooms can be funny things. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

 copacetic

Has Max been giving you English lessons?!

ChrisSU posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

 copacetic

Has Max been giving you English lessons?!

Or Trump?

Gosh, does the orange one know words like that? He'd at least put an exclamation mark afterwards. 

Or fall asleep.....

As the test sub woofer should come with a microphone (I think it will be an UMIK-1) that I need to set up it's DSP, I should be able to test REW, too. I am very curious/excited (german: "gespannt". I think i need "Max"?) what I will learn.