NAC 282 - First Impressions

joe9407 posted:

Andib posted:

I demoed the 282/250DR at home and the real winner was the 282. 

interesting: i upgraded from an SN1/Hicap to 282/250.2 all in one fell swoop, so couldn't get a read on whether the preamp or amp contributed more to the improvements i heard. (i got a too-good-to-refuse deal on a s/h 282, then had it and the 250.2 serviced.) at any rate, i think it's really good and all the system one would ever need, to the extent that what one "needs" is relevant to the HiFi hobby.

to Jez, though: a powerful amp with small speakers can be really engaging -- if for no other reason than that standmounts are often less efficient than floorstanders -- and there are good deals on 250.2s to be had if you poke around.

just sayin'.

why not put a statement monos on these mini pmc?     for standmounths vs floorstanders it is not the debate or case here.  The same advise could be done for associating near 20k source/electronics with 1,5 k speakers, standmounths or floorstanders : it is not well balanced and the source/electronics can't reveal their potential in these conditions. But it works and can be easily enjoyed of course.   Put a 250 is not logic here, sorry. These speakers have its max power quality with nap 200, even nap 150 would be more than enough.

Have you reassessed your speaker positioning since the 282? There might be more to come from your db1s. 

First give your 282 a bit more time to evolve before making a next step. Then review your speaker positioning. Then see f your roomacoustics can be improved. After that you have two direction to improve 

- stay with the 200 but be selective with new speakers, get ones which are efficient

- consider and moving to the next level 250 and upgrading the speakers...

Bert Schurink posted:

First give your 282 a bit more time to evolve before making a next step. Then review your speaker positioning. Then see if your roomacoustics can be improved. After that you have two direction to improve 

- stay with the 200 but be selective with new speakers, get ones which are efficient

- consider and moving to the next level 250 and upgrading the speakers...

Seems like a good option following your https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/room-acoustics-9 thread

We have a 200 driving Linn Kans & does a very good job - to our ears. Im sure there are better speakers now but theres something about the Kans we just love.

Thanks for all the speaker advice. The DB1+ do seem to struggle with some tracks, especially at the top end where they can sound a little harsh sometimes. Most things sound very much better than before though such as The Beatles - Abbey Road, which was a great listen.

So, my specification for potential new speakers would be along the lines of:

• Good match for the NAP 200
• Great with rhythm, especially drums
• Very clear and revealing mid and upper range
• Dynamic at lower volumes
• Suited to a relatively small room with approx 15ft listening position
• Restrained on the bass. Speakers with a deep thump aren't for me

Given that the speakers look to be the obvious 'weak link' then they would be the priority. A NAP 250 is not on my agenda just yet for sheer financial reasons.

Russell K50 / K100. Proac Tablette 10 and the new Totem Sky should be on your list. It's worth also looking at TQ Black speaker cable in place of your NAC-A5. Works very well with Naim and PMC. 

Jez R Oakley posted:

Thanks for all the speaker advice. The DB1+ do seem to struggle with some tracks, especially at the top end where they can sound a little harsh sometimes. Most things sound very much better than before though such as The Beatles - Abbey Road, which was a great listen.

So, my specification for potential new speakers would be along the lines of:

• Good match for the NAP 200
• Great with rhythm, especially drums
• Very clear and revealing mid and upper range
• Dynamic at lower volumes
• Suited to a relatively small room with approx 15ft listening position
• Restrained on the bass. Speakers with a deep thump aren't for me

 

Given that the speakers look to be the obvious 'weak link' then they would be the priority. A NAP 250 is not on my agenda just yet for sheer financial reasons.

1  "Good match for the NAP 200"
Removing this restriction is one reason for getting a 250DR before changing the speakers - by keeping the 200 you're limiting your choice of speakers and may need to upgrade them again sooner.

2  "Great with rhythm, especially drums"
Another reason for getting a 250DR before changing the speakers.

3  "Very clear and revealing mid and upper range"
Some speakers that will not give this with a 200 will give it with a 250DR - see point 1.

4  "Dynamic at lower volumes"
This is an advantage to the 250DR (when run in!)

5  "Suited to a relatively small room with approx 15ft listening position"
Small sealed enclosure speakers (such as ATC) often perform better ported speakers in smaller rooms (N.B. reflex and open transmission line are both the same here) and these are often better driven with a more capable amp.  This approach also reduces the effect in 6 to some degree

6  "Restrained on the bass. Speakers with a deep thump aren't for me"
This is mainly a problem with room acoustics interacting with the speakers.  Sealed enclosures can help here a little, but fundamentally it's the room modes that cause this effect.  The real answer here is bass traps rather than different speakers.

You can change your speakers now and probably get what you want, but you'll have a more restricted choice if you stick with the 200.  If you intend getting a 250DR at some stage, then getting it first will also help to give you some (or even quite a lot) of what you want from your existing speakers.   However it'll also make available a better choice of speakers in the future.

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

Having owned both the 200 and 250DR  I'm pretty certain that no matter the speaker the 250DR will be the better performer.  

Jez R Oakley posted:

Thanks for all the speaker advice. The DB1+ do seem to struggle with some tracks, especially at the top end where they can sound a little harsh sometimes. Most things sound very much better than before though such as The Beatles - Abbey Road, which was a great listen.

So, my specification for potential new speakers would be along the lines of:

• Good match for the NAP 200
• Great with rhythm, especially drums
• Very clear and revealing mid and upper range
• Dynamic at lower volumes
• Suited to a relatively small room with approx 15ft listening position
• Restrained on the bass. Speakers with a deep thump aren't for me

 

Given that the speakers look to be the obvious 'weak link' then they would be the priority. A NAP 250 is not on my agenda just yet for sheer financial reasons.

If you don't want to take the upgrade path in the future, choose some easy load little floorstanders ( minimum 90db), like pmc, proac, living voice.... Living voice are easy load, not too much bass, and are refined and good working with naim amps.  Proac are less easy load but a little more dynamic than living voice. But living voice are airier...

If you like Pmc, stay perhaps with these brand.    Wilson benesh square 2 would be also a very good choice.   But without hearing some speakers by yourself, it is risky to buy some only with the help of forum members: each system is personal.

But if you intend to upgrade a lot in the future, the 250 would be in that case a good choice, because you will have more choices for speakers after.

My personal choice would be wilson benesh square 2. With nap 200 they will work perfectly in your 15 feet room( like mine) and with nap 250 they will totally disappear.

ryder. posted:

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

With over £15,000 of electronics it's hardly a 'little system', it's a bloody good system. My advice to the OP is to enjoy it. There is no need to upgrade the speakers at all, or to get a bigger power amp. Get used to the new preamp and maybe think about other stuff in a few months time. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

ryder. posted:

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

With over £15,000 of electronics it's hardly a 'little system', it's a bloody good system. My advice to the OP is to enjoy it. There is no need to upgrade the speakers at all, or to get a bigger power amp. Get used to the new preamp and maybe think about other stuff in a few months time. 

Agreed, bloody good system & my advice also to enjoy it. If it sounds good why change the speakers ? For £900 they must be pretty competent & speakers are personal thing, more dependant on room, music to a degree & power amp IMO.

Make changes as & when they make sense particually if funds are restricted so take your time.

The diddy little DB1s, although reputedly good for their diminutive size and cost, are the bottom of PMC's range, so undoubtedly can be bettered. That is something the OP clearly knows, and from there there are many possibilities for moving up should the niggle persist. 

I second a few of the guys here. For the money, the DB1's are bloody good speakers and are easily powered by a NAP200. I run TB2i's, powered by an Olive NAC72/HiCap/NAP180 and they sound superb. 

Let the 282 break in over the next few months. You may well be pleasantly surprised. If you then feel like upgrading , I suggest looking further up the PMC ladder or try some of the excellent ATC's (11, 19 for example).

I had pmc Db1i's and I thought they were excellent until I moved up from a sn2 to 202/200.They obviously improved with the separates but were still lacking something.I also found them a little slow.I tried a couple of floor standers but found them to boom a bit in my room.

I eventually went for bowers and Wilkins pm1!s and they work exceptionally well in my room.I changed to 282 and had to tinker with the pm1's position but they now sound great.250 dr next I think.

Scooot posted:

I had pmc Db1i's and I thought they were excellent until I moved up from a sn2 to 202/200.They obviously improved with the separates but were still lacking something.I also found them a little slow.I tried a couple of floor standers but found them to boom a bit in my room.

I eventually went for bowers and Wilkins pm1!s and they work exceptionally well in my room.I changed to 282 and had to tinker with the pm1's position but they now sound great.250 dr next I think.

 

I think this is exactly my experience. The DB1s are very decent speakers and are showing the improvements from the 282, and indeed all the previous upgrades they've been through. As such they have and still do serve me very well but obviously my electronics deserve something much better in the medium term.

Just read a positive review of the PM1s. Interesting... In what specific respects did you find they significantly beat your DB1s?

Jez R Oakley posted:

Scooot posted:

I had pmc Db1i's and I thought they were excellent until I moved up from a sn2 to 202/200.They obviously improved with the separates but were still lacking something.I also found them a little slow.I tried a couple of floor standers but found them to boom a bit in my room.

I eventually went for bowers and Wilkins pm1!s and they work exceptionally well in my room.I changed to 282 and had to tinker with the pm1's position but they now sound great.250 dr next I think.

 

I think this is exactly my experience. The DB1s are very decent speakers and are showing the improvements from the 282, and indeed all the previous upgrades they've been through. As such they have and still do serve me very well but obviously my electronics deserve something much better in the medium term.

Just read a positive review of the PM1s. Interesting... In what specific respects did you find they significantly beat your DB1s?

It's difficult when you swap out a pair of speakers and don't keep going back and forth to listen.After they settled my initial thought was much better soundstage,deeper more controlled base and a overall cleaner sound.I am not a fan of heavy bass so I was using the foam bungs to dampen the bass down a bit when using the 202.When I introduced the 282 I removed the bungs.I found the bass the 282 was producing was fuller and deeper but a lot more controlled.I would like to think the pm1's are here to stay.

I use the same 200/282 hicapDR with cdx2+xps2, with b&w 804D and it is amazing. Feel no need to upgrade to the 250DR, I love the system so much I'm afraid it will change. No power is missing and no control is missing. All kind of recordings sounds good and more important fun! Bass is deep and accurate, highs are clear, soundstage huge on the right recordings. Just try them with the new 50 years anniversary s. pepper....it was the closest I have ever felt to this cute four guys. so don't rush  and change to the 250DR, with the right speakers you be surprise how good the 200 is. 

Must comment here that I have a very good vinyl set as well (rega p9/dyna 20x2L and Einstein TTchoice phono amp) and the cdx2 as amazing Player it is, it come close to the vinyl set only when partner with XPs2...

hope it helps. 

shahar posted:

I use the same 200/282 hicapDR with cdx2+xps2, with b&w 804D and it is amazing. Feel no need to upgrade to the 250DR, I love the system so much I'm afraid it will change. No power is missing and no control is missing. All kind of recordings sounds good and more important fun! Bass is deep and accurate, highs are clear, soundstage huge on the right recordings. Just try them with the new 50 years anniversary s. pepper....it was the closest I have ever felt to this cute four guys. so don't rush  and change to the 250DR, with the right speakers you be surprise how good the 200 is. 

Must comment here that I have a very good vinyl set as well (rega p9/dyna 20x2L and Einstein TTchoice phono amp) and the cdx2 as amazing Player it is, it come close to the vinyl set only when partner with XPs2...

hope it helps. 

I'd support this sentiment. It's a vicious cycle if one keeps thinking what the higher level gear will bring to the system. If you are happy with what you have got, then by all means stick with it. Of course, if one has the money to spend or the itch to scratch that's a different story altogether. There is no end to this game.

Having said that, my favourite system is still the 282/HCDR/250DR. It's a very accomplished system in my book. As someone (or few) have said before, once you compare the 200 and 250DR there is no going back to the 200. Nevertheless, don't take my word for it. I still support the notion that if you are happy with the current system, there isn't any need to look at the 250DR.

Hungryhalibut posted:

ryder. posted:

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

With over £15,000 of electronics it's hardly a 'little system', it's a bloody good system. My advice to the OP is to enjoy it. There is no need to upgrade the speakers at all, or to get a bigger power amp. Get used to the new preamp and maybe think about other stuff in a few months time. 

The remark of a 'little system' is not meant to be demeaning. I apologise if that's the impression that was conveyed. I always consider my system (which is almost similar to the OP) as a little system when compared to larger systems based on the 500 series. Also, the PMC DB1+ are small monitors, so that adds up to a "little system".

ryder. posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

ryder. posted:

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

With over £15,000 of electronics it's hardly a 'little system', it's a bloody good system. My advice to the OP is to enjoy it. There is no need to upgrade the speakers at all, or to get a bigger power amp. Get used to the new preamp and maybe think about other stuff in a few months time. 

The remark of a 'little system' is not meant to be demeaning. I apologise if that's the impression that was conveyed. I always consider my system (which is almost similar to the OP) as a little system when compared to larger systems based on the 500 series. Also, the PMC DB1+ are small monitors, so that adds up to a "little system".

Fair enough, I consider the OP's as 'mid range' & the 500 a good 'lottery win' high end system but most will be 'little' compared to the statement! didnt mean to take a swipe at your comment tho, just trying to put 15K into perspective.

Also consider upgrading the hicap to DR, will make the 282 sound more mature. Makes 282 less shouty, with wider sound, more detail and still easier listening. 

Check out the latest dynaudio special 40 to pair with your nap200!

NFG posted:

ryder. posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

ryder. posted:

All valid suggestions. It's a matter of preference whether to do the amp upgrade or speaker upgrade first. Yes, the NAP 200 is a good match to the NAC 282. Nevertheless, the NAP 250 DR surely shows the limits of the NAP 200. I know as I have compared both. The improvements gained with the NAP 250 DR may be speaker dependent. I don't have experience with the PMC DB1+ so I wouldn't know how it would sound like with the 250 DR.

If you are financially restricted, I would suggest living with the 282/HC/200 for a while, considering that you have just got the 282 into the system. It's still a great little system.

With over £15,000 of electronics it's hardly a 'little system', it's a bloody good system. My advice to the OP is to enjoy it. There is no need to upgrade the speakers at all, or to get a bigger power amp. Get used to the new preamp and maybe think about other stuff in a few months time. 

The remark of a 'little system' is not meant to be demeaning. I apologise if that's the impression that was conveyed. I always consider my system (which is almost similar to the OP) as a little system when compared to larger systems based on the 500 series. Also, the PMC DB1+ are small monitors, so that adds up to a "little system".

Fair enough, I consider the OP's as 'mid range' & the 500 a good 'lottery win' high end system but most will be 'little' compared to the statement! didnt mean to take a swipe at your comment tho, just trying to put 15K into perspective.

Absolutely. It's a year's salary on the minimum wage. It's a lot of money. 

Dre posted:

Also consider upgrading the hicap to DR, will make the 282 sound more mature. Makes 282 less shouty, with wider sound, more detail and still easier listening. 

Check out the latest dynaudio special 40 to pair with your nap200!

 

Has anyone heard and reviewed the Special 40? They look tremendous but they should do for the thick end of £3000! :-)

£15K a little system   To most people I know tell them you're going to spend £1.5K on a hi-fi they'd think you're mad but would no doubt spend £3-10K on an exotic holiday.  How where's the link for those Nordost Odin cables!!