Atc Scm 11 substitution

Antonio1 posted:

SBT with linear psu is vastly inferior to, say, a unitiqute I know I sold this latter to a friend using SN as amp. 

Streamer is as important as dac.

So, what DAC are they using, and how are they connecting it?

Unfortunately without that, your statement doesn't help at all

Ok. But if I have to, what speakers woul you suggest if i would not like to loose transparency and would be a bit easier to listen? And be good with rock.

Hungryhalibut posted:

"...you simply cannot polish a turd.."

When I was a kid, my old Dad had me Simoniz his Austin Allegro every weekend. Came up a treat! 

Sun King posted:

Ok. But if I have to, what speakers woul you suggest if i would not like to loose transparency and would be a bit easier to listen? And be good with rock.

Have you thought at all about the recommendations you've had so far? It's your source that's the problem, not the speakers. If you insist on worse speakers to obscure the poor source, just try a few cheap ones, but they won't be as good as your ATCs. 

+1, Sort your source out, the speakers are excellent.

kevin J Carden posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

"...you simply cannot polish a turd.."

When I was a kid, my old Dad had me Simoniz his Austin Allegro every weekend. Came up a treat! 

Was it one of the brown ones?

Gee Whiz - When did the little SB Touch become the forum whipping boy? Before you go spending money on a new Streamer, DAC, cables etc., why not take the SBT to your dealers and listen to all your home components in their room and then confirm that it is in fact the source of your listening fatigue.

My money says it probably isn't the main problem. While not the last word in detail, dynamics, (insert other hi-fi artefacts) - the SBT is an absolutely fine music maker and under no circumstances should be making your listening uncomfortable - unless you are listening at very, very high volumes in your room, with your ATCs, which by all accounts are unforgiving, and may need considerable run in. I assume the pair you heard at your dealers were not brand new.

I have run SBTs bare into Naim Nait 2 (recently serviced) and Incatech Claymore (never serviced) into Spendor S3/5R² in a small study and it is anything but fatiguing.

I have also run it in my main system feeding 552 DR/500/SBLs, and yes a Hugo elevates it, and a microrendu surpasses it, but on its own it is perfectly capable and not in any way an ear bleeder.

I think the suggestion is that because the ATCs are much more revealing than many speakers, they could be revealing deficiencies of the source that are not evident on less revealing speakers, that explaining the fatiguing nature of the sound, whereas when demonstrated at the dealer the source was different.

Sun King posted:

Dear community.

One year ago I bought my first Naim (Nait 5si) and month latter Scm 11 speakers. Unfortunately I did't have a chance to listen to them in my home environment since this is not a dealer's policy, but I had extensive listening at his audio room. Speakers, connected to my amp, sounded great and very easy to listen even at very high volume. 

Well, situation in my room was quite shocking. The transparency and beautiful sound is still there, but it comes with an ear fatigue, sometimes after 15 minutes, other times after hour of listening. It was very bad at the beginning, but I manage to place speakers in position that gives me minimal unpleasent feeling. But it is still there.

I would like to try some other speakers, maybe a bit warmer, but without loosing the transparency. With Naim I auditioned Neat Motive. They completely killed rock'n'roll with polite guitar. 

Can you give me a hint for what model to where to look, please. There is a huge problem here, since I am limited to audition only a few most commercial brands (B&W, KEF ...).

Thank you.

Regards.

you said you enjoyed the nait 5/ act scm11 at the dealer demo. What was the source at that time?   was it also the squeezbox touch?    i am quite sure, like other members here, that your source is the weak link.   i would add a softer source than naim on your amp/speakers combo, because atc are already, a little, on the hard side( not the exact term perhaps).  So chord hugo, second hand, marantz  na11, naim uniticore/chord mojo, linn majik ds....

What speaker cables are you using Sun King?  Same as at dealer?  I don't have experience with ATC but presuamably given their nature this is probably quite important.

I use Audioquest Type 4 speaker cables.

I am not listening at a very high volume. Curently i am trying to borrow naim dac from local dealer. My speakers were run in at the dealer demo room a few days.

kef  r100. kef r300/

monitor audio gold 50. or gold 100/

Two things have changed since the dealer demo...

1  The Source
2  The Room

It's either one of those, or both of those!

check the speakers are in phase

If you are dead set on keeping the 11s and you don't mind spending a bunch of money upgrading your source and amplification then go for it.  I got a pair of 11s on the strength of my experience with the 7s (which I still have in the office system), and on the recommendation of folks like Jon Honeyball and others on the forum.  Like you, no home demo was possible.  The 11s are incredible, but I am running them in the living room system with Rega Apollo-R/nDac, Rega P3, 82/hicap/250 (all serviced) and even then I sometimes feel like the system is not quite up to it.  So I am surprised you would attempt to run them with just a Nait and that source.

If you don't want to spend a bunch of money upgrading your entire electronics chain I would keep the Nait, downgrade to the 7s and upgrade the source.  I would think at that point things would be much more in balance, and you would still retain the qualities of the ATCs that you and others like so much.  

Great suggeations. Thank you. I will try with some acoustic panels or other absorption materials.

Is it possible to plug Mojo in the socket? I don't think that refiling battery is a good option.

As far as I am avare, my amplification power is a little on the low side, but is not the reason for fatigue?

And yes, when my ears are ok, I love the sound from the ATCs. My local dealer, according to my room space, suggested 11 over the 7. 

I don't think at all replacing 11 with 7 would solve the issue.

It would be quite the same ,I think.

If dealer advised to match those 11 to your room it may have been good advice, I still think the problem is entirely with your amp first, even though, of course, a much better amp would need a better source in due course.

Sun King posted:

Is it possible to plug Mojo in the socket? I don't think that refiling battery is a good option.

 

 

Maybe have a look at Chord's 2Qute, which runs without batteries -- though with the release of the new Hugo one might soon expect a new 2Qute as well. Possibly then get a used 2Qute for a bargain price, or an even better new 2Qute?

Another possible DAC is the humble Rega, less detailed than the 2qute but less sterile too. Unfortunately they chose RCA for the input which if the SBT has the same for out makes a nonsense of my favourite digital cable (belden 4794R) which only comes with BNCs. It    helps the 2Qute express a little bit of emotion but lifts the Rega enormously, not so sure it wold be any good with a BNC RCA converter on both ends. There's also optical but I've never tried it.

I forget to mention, that my speakers are not toed in. I played with positioning a lot and the situation get better. When I conect my squeeze with Din-Rca, it was another step up, Audioquest (and Van den Hull Clearwater) ease the sound.

My dealer suggested Creek 50A integrated amp would be a better choice then Naim. 

Naim dealer will hopefully borrow me a Naim dac tommorow. I will post inpressions. But I guess it is my room that is a problem. I am listening to Cobalt Slow Forewer on Lp now and it is not bad, but it is not entirely good either.

Is there a slightest possibility that my ears can somehow react to scm11 frequencies? My girlfrend never complained about the sound, but she is usualy listening at a very low levels.

I know they are a different speakers, but I never had any problem listenig to Kef Iq 30 for a long period at high volume.

I am a long time ATC user, and have heard 11,12 and 19s in various setups over the years. Although they are very sensitive I have heard them with some mediocre sources like PC laptops inbuilt DAC outputs and far from perfect rooms and amps and they can sound  totally enjoyable with a warm smooth presentation... albeit lacking naturally enough resolution etc.. 

If you are finding fatigue sounding, I would look at things like speaker stands, and speaker cable. ATC SCMs are very sensitive to the standmount used... and the wrong stand can noticeably harden the upper mids or bloat the bass etc ... it's all in the mechanical coupling and energy transfer... I use wooden open stands now.. 

Then there is speaker cable... I have found with Naim amps and ATC that at least 3.5 m prefereably more of Naim NAC A5 speaker cable sound best compared to the many other brands/constructions I have tried over the years.

Finally that SBT if in standard setup is quite a RF noise generator .. which in itself can cause a hardening of audio... if you still want to continue, and they are good devices, try an alternate low noise powersupply, and try different interconnects between in and your a Naim... perhaps get Naim to make a suitable lead for you.. it may well make a world of difference. I used a SqueezeBox to great effect several years back, but I changed the powersupply. Also on the SBT and Naim, your Naim amp needs one and only one earth grounded source.. your SBT is not earth grounded... so you may need to manually attach the mains safety earth to the grounds on the interconnects. If you use a Naim streamer, albeit a radical move, there is a jumper on the back of the case work to set ground to float or earth. If the Naim streamer was your only source then you would set to earth.

My honest view is that unless really really poor, that room acoustics won't be your main issue..especially with that amp and speakers

Simon makes many good points, and thinking about his observations, the problem may well be a combination of these effects all conspiring together to form a big problem.

You're starting to see improvements with the changes you've made so far, try working through the other suggestions that Simon makes.

As a temporary measure alternative to a lower noise PSU for the SBT try connecting to the external DAC using the optical connection.  If this gives a reduction in the hardness, then a low noise supply is almost certainly going to be of benefit.

Again as a temporary measure to test the speaker/stand interaction try different supports connecting the speaker to the stand.  Options include
Sticking the speakers to the stand with Blue-tak
Resting the speakers on the stand with nothing between them
Upward facing spikes
Downward facing spikes
Rubber blocks
Damping feet (Vibrapods / Isopods etc)
If any of these give substantial improvement, then you need to adopt that method and/or you may need change your speaker stands.

Does the hardness you find vary from one time to another?  If so there may be a problem with interference coming in on the mains.

Finally I still think that room acoustics could be a significant contributor along with (and potentially equal to) several of the other of the things Simon mentions.

Huge posted:

Simon makes many good points, and thinking about his observations, the problem may well be a combination of these effects all conspiring together to form a big problem.

You're starting to see improvements with the changes you've made so far, try working through the other suggestions that Simon makes.

As a temporary measure alternative to a lower noise PSU for the SBT try connecting to the external DAC using the optical connection.  If this gives a reduction in the hardness, then a low noise supply is almost certainly going to be of benefit.

Again as a temporary measure to test the speaker/stand interaction try different supports connecting the speaker to the stand.  Options include
Sticking the speakers to the stand with Blue-tak
Resting the speakers on the stand with nothing between them
Upward facing spikes
Downward facing spikes
Rubber blocks
Damping feet (Vibrapods / Isopods etc)
If any of these give substantial improvement, then you need to adopt that method and/or you may need change your speaker stands.

Does the hardness you find vary from one time to another?  If so there may be a problem with interference coming in on the mains.

Finally I still think that room acoustics could be a significant contributor along with (and potentially equal to) several of the other of the things Simon mentions.

...and consider filling your speaker stands with ballistic damping, if that is a possiblite . A bag of sharp sand or coarse grade 0/4mm from a builders merchant would suffice if you dont want the expense of the black stuff.