Atc Scm 11 substitution

stuart posted:

Stuart and Yeti, as far as I am informed, close box speakers can easily work near the wall or in the corner. Well, I may be wrong

Hi Sun King I may be wrong too but I think sealed boxes are much better for front wall placement. But being good very close to a side wall and firing HF into the corner close to where you listen may not allow for HF dispersion and give perceived harshness. (somebody correct me if I'm wrong please) 

Closed box speakers are better near walls (specifically the wall behind them), but they're still much better away from walls.  Side walls are a particular problem for ALL speakers closed box or not.

Some good points. To reduce high frequency reflections you really need some acoustic treatment on that left side wall and the wall behind where you are listening. Toe in will help a lot as Huge suggests. Doesnt matter if it's a sealed speaker or not. It's no different to singing in a tiled bathroom. Ask someone to run a flat mirror along the side wall while you are in the listening position. When you see the reflection of your speaker tweeter in the mirror then that is the spot that needs treating. As a temp measure try draping a duvet there.

Pedro T. posted:

I don't know about the DAC but the 5si alone at 11 o clock must be close to full power...

Could it be that the amp is struggling to drive speakers? Could it also be that because of this amp is more or less running in class b and sounding harsh?

I fully agree with the comments re left speaker being far too close to the side wall.  I think much playing with positioning of speakers is indicated, and indeed if possible the listening position. Maybe even left speaker where the right one is and right one in the middle of the right wall. - play around, initially ingnoring the practicalities, to see if anywhere sounds ok listened from anywgphere else - if nothing tames the problem then something else is amiss, but if it sounds right with some layout or other you can start refining.

Halloween Man posted:

Pedro T. posted:

I don't know about the DAC but the 5si alone at 11 o clock must be close to full power...

Could it be that the amp is struggling to drive speakers? Could it also be that because of this amp is more or less running in class b and sounding harsh?

That's not necessarily valid, there is a volume control in the DAC V1, so if that is turned down, then the control in the 5si will have to be turned up by the corresponding amount.  This will simply restore the input to the power amp to the same level (and hence give the same output) as though the DAC V1 was at full volume and the 5si was set at a lower volume.

The views on acoustics are all very sensible.

Still, I'd consider the power issue if the OP likes to listen to music very loud. The 5si clips at 76WPC at 8 ohms (source: Stereophile). ATC recommends a minimum of 75W. Doesn't seem the right match for very loud music playing...

75W into SCM 11 will give around 100dB SPL in a reasonably small room (and likely more if the room's reflective) - that's very loud, loud enough to risk hearing damage in anything over 15 minutes.
A 5si has plenty of power for SCM11s in a small room.

What's the size of the room and listening distance from speakers?

Small, and Short!

Managed to find the post which mentioned on the size of the room (4m x 4m). Yes, I would surely say it's a rather small room and listening distance would be around 2m from speakers in that room with the user sitting on the bed. So the ATC SCM11/Nait 5si is a bedroom system.

Although a more powerful amp might bring some change to the ATC SCM11, I would agree with Huge that the differences might not be worthwhile since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.

If you have the SCM11s in a larger room you would then be able to listen at higher volumes, and for this reason a larger amp would do a lot of justice for the speakers. 

I have read about ATCs not sounding too good at lower volumes. Perhaps that's the reason the user experienced listening fatigue when the volume was cranked up higher, further exacerbated by the smallish room. Other than source and treatments to walls, a change in speaker might be an easier solution. A speaker with low listening fatigue which sounds good at low to moderate levels.

Sun King posted:

Dear community.

One year ago I bought my first Naim (Nait 5si) and month latter Scm 11 speakers. Unfortunately I did't have a chance to listen to them in my home environment since this is not a dealer's policy, but I had extensive listening at his audio room. Speakers, connected to my amp, sounded great and very easy to listen even at very high volume. 

Well, situation in my room was quite shocking. The transparency and beautiful sound is still there, but it comes with an ear fatigue, sometimes after 15 minutes, other times after hour of listening. It was very bad at the beginning, but I manage to place speakers in position that gives me minimal unpleasent feeling. But it is still there.

I would like to try some other speakers, maybe a bit warmer, but without loosing the transparency. With Naim I auditioned Neat Motive. They completely killed rock'n'roll with polite guitar. 

Can you give me a hint for what model to where to look, please. There is a huge problem here, since I am limited to audition only a few most commercial brands (B&W, KEF ...).

Thank you.

Regards.

If all else fails (source and room treatment), look at the Harbeth P3ESR. No room treatment required.

Sun King, are you using the DAC V1 in fixed or variable mode? It should be set to fixed/line level out if you're using it as a source rather than a preamp. You'll also find you're twiddling volume knobs a little less, hopefully.

ryder. posted:

Managed to find the post which mentioned on the size of the room (4m x 4m). Yes, I would surely say it's a rather small room and listening distance would be around 2m from speakers in that room with the user sitting on the bed. So the ATC SCM11/Nait 5si is a bedroom system.

Although a more powerful amp might bring some change to the ATC SCM11, I would agree with Huge that the differences might not be worthwhile since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.

If you have the SCM11s in a larger room you would then be able to listen at higher volumes, and for this reason a larger amp would do a lot of justice for the speakers. 

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

May I ask which part of my post you was referring to when you mentioned you had trouble understanding the reasoning?

In my humble opinion, having read everything above, the ear fatigue comes from driving the ATCs too loud and with an underpowered amplifier. With the V1 in place some of the source inadequacies are ameliorated, but the amplifier/speaker issue remains. 

The comment about not being able to play music loudly in a small room is interesting. My room is about 5m long and 3.6m wide, with the speakers on the long wall. The walls are made of brick, the floor is concrete and we have fire doors to help keep the sound in. With the volume up it's perfectly possible to drive the room and get incredible volume yet with a sound that remains totally clean with no boom or overhang. There is no room treatment whatsoever other than a good carpet, a well stuffed sofa and two armchairs. 

ryder. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I don't understand this reasoning - the sound level for a given amplifier setting is approximately inversely proportional to the distance from the speakers (nominally 6dB quieter for every doubling of distance between listener and speakers, the precise difference depending on reflections in the room). For the same amp. power the sound level at 2m from the speakers would be approximately the same in a small room as 2m away in a big room, though with reflective surfaces it would actually be slightly louder in the small room, but more 'muddy' due to the reflections). In a larger room a person has more potential to sit further from the speakers, when greater amp. power would be needed for the same sound level. So if one likes music loud, the key to reduced amp. power and hence less risk of clipping is to sit closer to the speakers -which in many cases might be more likely to happen in a smaller room rather than a larger one.

As for absolute sound level, what is significant is that a doubling of amp. power is required for every 3dB increase in sound level, and it isvpeaks where that is generally significant, not average level: A pair of speakers with a sensitivity of 85dB/w positioned at a distance of 2 m from the listener both at the same sound level would produce a sound level of 82dB at the listening position (ignoring the effect of reflections) for just 1w amp. power. 8w would produce 91dB, which is loud, and for continuous listening is unwise for hearing health.

The above are relevant as considerations of average sound level, but of course real music is not a steady level, and where the power requirements become significant are for peaks - 100dB in this scenario (9dB above average level) would take 64w, while 112dB, which might be quite realistic for instantaneous peaks in some music played at 'realistic' levels -even more with occasional pieces, e,g Tchaikovsky's 1812 with canons - would require 1024w! Multiply these amplifier powers by 4 for a listening position 4m away instead of 2m. N.B. This is peak amplifier power capability that is required not RMS -but clearly extreme peaks can put many amps into clipping - though that does not mean that anything untoward would be heard on the average programme material.

May I ask which part of my post you was referring to when you mentioned you had trouble understanding the reasoning?

Sorry, I should have made clear it was pimarily the  second paragraph - can't listen to really loud music in a small room; sound levels limited to 40-75dB in that room (which I take to have meant no more than 75dB reasonably achievable with those speakers).

Re third para, being able to listen at higher levels in a larger room. I agree if you meant that if you sit the same distance from the speakers in a larger room the effect of reflections would be less and so the music clearer, though that is a function of the reflections and not the larger room per se - as I indicated, if you sit further away because it is a larger room a greater amplifier output is required for the same sound level.  (N.B. the muddying effect of reflections is irrespective of sound level, so in the small reflective room the effect would remain even at low listening levels.)

While at it, I should clarify that when I was describing average and peak sound levels, with some types of music the dynamic tange is very much less than others, so an average level of, say, mid 80 dBs does not necessarily mean peaks that come anywhere near to exceeding the amp's capability.

Ryder, the part of you post I don't understand (and I suspect the same for IB) is "since one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room (especially a bedroom). The SPLs would probably be in the range of 40 dB to 75 dB in that room.".  Smaller rooms sound louder for a given power and speaker: One can listen at the same volumes as in larger rooms with less amplifier power.  My room is 3.6mx4.25m and, with acoustic treatment, +/-4dB 18Hz to 18kHz!

IB, your calculations are correct for an anechoic environment, within a real room you can add between 2 and 4 dB, and the OP's room is quite reflective, so 8W will give 94dB which is very loud; but 8W isn't going to tax a 5si one little bit.  If the 5si is running out of power and turning hard, the OP is listening way too loud and rapidly damaging his hearing.

The nature of the reflections from the left wall (being excessive in the mid and HF) and the bookcase (being predominantly HF) are, I believe the biggest problem here (combined with an overall brightness in the room).

HH, don't forget that the OP found the amp & speaker combination particularly good when listening the dealer's showroom, so he doesn't find anything fundamentally wrong with that particular combination.  The problems only show up now the system is installed in his room.

P.S.  IB I was still typing as you sent your post!

Thanks for the clarification. I should be more specific. When I mentioned one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room, I was actually referring to the OP's room which is a bedroom. I am aware that one would be able to listen at high levels in a small dedicated room but in the context of a bedroom especially a smaller one with a bed on one side, it may not be a conducive or proper environment to listen to loud music. Apart from the bed occupying the space, I would expect other furniture in the room such as wardrobe or side table etc. that would contribute more to the acoustics of the room, more reflections at higher SPLs.

I run NBLs in a room about the same size with no problems, however although one speaker is only 17cm from the side wall, that side wall falls back into a bay before the first reflection point, the other side there is a fireplace and the mantlepiece is cluttered enough to diffuse the high frequencies. When I had Thiel CS1.6 in the same room I had a harsh treble and blamed the speakers until I discovered the benefits of cable dressing. The OP has a plain hard wall right next to the left speaker, it may be adding to the harshness but there could still be benefit dressing the cables properly.

What is on the other wall we haven't seen in the pictures? Is there any scope for rearranging the layout?

Thank you all for the replies. 

I always tought, that book shelf would soften the sound, now I see a different perspective. Back wall may be the issue. If I lay on the bed with my head on the pillow, sound is so much softer with less HF. In that case I am about 0.5 m below the tweeters. 

I never tought that listening music on less then 12, so less then half volume, could be much for the amp. As said, at the demo room, speakers were conected to Creek 50 w amp and playing at very high volume. It was not possible to talk normaly wit person sitting next to me. After more then two hours of different music, I expirienced no ear pain. Speakers were (sometimes) conected to Rel T9 sub. Dealer was not quite happy with my Naim decision, suggesting that his amp is much better and more dynamic.

I will try to toe in the near wall speaker and report on the sound.

 Maybe I should post photo of the other part of the room? It is a one room appartment and my living room is my bedroom. On the other side of the room is a bit of an open space and then a furniture alongside the right wall.

Huge - the above post says that a Creek was used at the dealer's, rather than the Nait, so it's completely different. Dealer dems of speakers are pretty useless anyway. Listening for a couple of hours is not the same as days on end at home. You only find out what speakers are really like when you live with them. 

Using a Nait at 12 o'clock, with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound, with those ATCs, is very likely never going to be ideal. 

Perhaps if the volume was turned down all the problems would go away. Better to have quieter music than ear pain and deafness. 

I have the Dali Mentor Menuets in my bedroom with a large bed just in front of the system, and my room is slightly larger than the OP's. In my limited experience, bedroom systems are compromised unless the room is huge and the listener sits on a proper chair instead of a bed. If the speakers are close to the bed especially a large and high bed, the early reflections will be bad and there is no room acoustics that's going to correct that. 

I'd agree that the problems would go away if the volume is turned down. I mostly listen at low volumes with the bedroom system. Mostly relaxing background music.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Huge - the above post says that a Creek was used at the dealer's, rather than the Nait, so it's completely different. Dealer dems of speakers are pretty useless anyway. Listening for a couple of hours is not the same as days on end at home. You only find out what speakers are really like when you live with them. 

Using a Nait at 12 o'clock, with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound, with those ATCs, is very likely never going to be ideal. 

Perhaps if the volume was turned down all the problems would go away. Better to have quieter music than ear pain and deafness. 

HH:  That's a change from previous info which said (or implied) that the only difference was the source.

Sun King:  Lack of info or incorrect info invalidates all prior conclusions.  Try acoustic absorption and extreme toe-in, but the amp-speaker interface is now just as suspect as the speaker room interface.

P.S.

HH, I don't agree with the comment "with a bed in front of the speakers sucking up all the sound": The bed will selectively absorb higher frequencies making things less harsh.)

Ryder, I don't agree "If the speakers are close to the bed especially a large and high bed, the early reflections will be bad and there is no room acoustics that's going to correct that. ":  If the bed has a large foot-board, yes that will reflect and the top (or any grille effect) will cause diffraction, but a bed is primarily an HF absorber not a reflector.

It is not ideal, I know. I also learned, that home demo is a must. However, from the short list of speakers I am interested in, ATCs were the only one that i can demo. Harbeth and PMC did not have a local dealer.

As I said, I rarely go to 12. If so, maybe with quiter music or with albums that are not produced loud. Eleven is usualy enough. 

Huge, sorry for that. Pqeople are using the same (or similar) combo without any complains and amp with less powere pushed at high volume could sound less relaxed, right?