Atc Scm 11 substitution

Sun King posted:

It is not ideal, I know. I also learned, that home demo is a must. However, from the short list of speakers I am interested in, ATCs were the only one that i can demo. Harbeth and PMC did not have a local dealer.

As I said, I rarely go to 12. If so, maybe with quiter music or with albums that are not produced loud. Eleven is usualy enough. 

Huge, sorry for that. Pqeople are using the same (or similar) combo without any complains and amp with less powere pushed at high volume could sound less relaxed, right?

Are you using the DAC V1 in line out mode or are you using it in preamp mode (i.e. using the DAC V1's volume control)?

You should only be using one volume control, either the DAC V1 or the 5si.

Lower powered amps can sometimes sound more harsh, but usually that requires them to be pushed hard (and if you do that in your room it'll be very loud - so loud you'll be damaging your hearing).

Huge, how to do that? If I change one volume contol with remote, the other is turning also.

I checked the settings and dac is set to fixed output.

It is not ear hurting loud. I know what it is since I once accidently push the volume to 3 o'clock and did't notice that. I a second I jumped to the volume button and turn the noise down.

Yes, you set the DAC to fixed output!
What interconnects are you using?   - You should be using a 4pin DIN to 5pin DIN.

If you do have the DAC set at fixed output, then setting the volume control to 12o/c will be excessively loud - you'll be damaging your hearing in about 5-15 minutes.
At fixed output 3o/c is likely to cause clipping in the amp and could have damaged the tweeters - this could cause harshness in the sound due to HF distortion - you need to get the speakers checked out.

Incidentally power output vs. loudness is a red herring:  My NAP300(DR) is still only 90W - i.e. only 2dB louder at maximum.
Also the Creek is rated 50W, the Nait 60W, so no significant difference to the relative amount of stress there.

Unfortunately I don't have 4pin to 5pin cable. I guess that might explain both volumes turning at the same time. RCA out from dac to 5pin DIN in the amp (grey one from Cusom HiFi Cables ltd). 

Both volumes knobs turning is because they use the same RC5 codes.  Nothing to do with the interconnect

Phono to DIN5 is better than phono to phono, and although not ideal, probably not enough to cause your problems.

Get the speakers checked for damaged tweeters.

These are the same speakers, that were playing at the demo room. I bought burned in ex demo speakers. Well, it was the last pair. 

As I said before, the sound did improve a lot. RCA to DIN cable has a significant role here. After I installed speakers at my home and listen to them for the first two hours, I had a feeling of thick worm liquid purring out of my ears. I was shocked. 

I tend to agree with the volume issue. I have played in loud rock bands for years and wear ear protection but haven't always. I suspect I have some degree of hearing damage but find that 10 'o clock on my current system is plenty loud. 11 is a bit too much for me and HF definitely gets grating. I previously owned a nait 5i and rarely pushed it over 10 even in a much bigger room than yours. 

It is tempting to crank the volume to get that visceral feel from the music but it can be difficult to get the right balance in many domestic spaces. 

Sun King posted:

These are the same speakers, that were playing at the demo room. I bought burned in ex demo speakers. Well, it was the last pair. 

As I said before, the sound did improve a lot. RCA to DIN cable has a significant role here. After I installed speakers at my home and listen to them for the first two hours, I had a feeling of thick worm liquid purring out of my ears. I was shocked. 

nait5i is 50w amp, and your atc are 85 db in 8 ohm, so i am quite sure that the nait5i is struggling at high volumes, with a not easy load speakers. Try to borrow from your dealer a supernait or more powerful amp to test.  And i agree that 12 o'clock is high, normally we listen to 9 0'clock and 10 is high volume.

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

Huge posted:

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

he listen at 12 o'oclock.....so very loud.  On the site i see nait5i at 50w.....   I didn't know that dacv1 has a volume control.....and Sun King has a turntable too....

Sun King posted:

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

 

perhaps your atc are damaged.  Your dealer can't come to your house?

Keler Pierre posted:

Huge posted:

Keler,

5SI is 60W, and the SCM11 are, electrically speaking a fairly benign 8Ω load.

There is no reason to suggest the 5SI is struggling when a 50W Creek amp wasn't.  Yes, a more capable amp (not necessarily a more powerful amp) will control the speakers better; but a lesser amp won't actually struggle with them, it just won't sound as energetic or have the dynamic contrast that a more capable amp will.

With those speakers the 5SI will just start to show hardness somewhere around 95dB to 98dB in room (somewhere about 5 - 15W), so that's not the reason unless the OP is listening at ridiculously high (and damagingly high) sound levels.

A SN2 isn't actually that much more powerful (only 33%), but it will control speakers better.
As the OP has a DAC V1, a 200 or, better still a 250, would be a better solution than a SN2.

he listen at 12 o'oclock.....so very loud.  On the site i see nait5i at 50w.....   I didn't know that dacv1 has a volume control.....and Sun King has a turntable too....

Good point about the TT.

Keler Pierre posted:

Sun King posted:

Again, listening for two hours, moderate levels, my ears ache. Made some changes, put the speakers in toe, have pillows in a bookshelf corner ... nothing.

To be honest, I have enough of this s***. 

Just want to sit down and listen to some music. Never have problem with my moderate kef iq30 connected to rotel and later to naim.

Harbeth are, drom what i reed, good choice. I think my dealer is also selling them in the latesteh months, but when I mentioned them, he said they are not rocking enough for my taste. And he does not have a home listen.

 

perhaps your atc are damaged.  Your dealer can't come to your house?

Yes I also suggested the possibility of tweeter damage after turning the Nait up to the 3 o/c position!

I own a pair of ATCs  and know them very well, the nait isn't the amp I'd pair them with successfully at all.

The SN2 will do but a classic combo will start making real music and for a considerable outlay.

They're a bastard speaker, but if you like, keep repeating,  best to consider either costly Naim  or their own up until 19s.  Then active . If you want to listen to music and not sounds , highs, bass ,problems etc, don't you?  

Don't know of any 50W miracle out there.

yes huge, it is curious to have unpleasant listening even at moderate volumes. If it is not the corner placement,  it may be damaged tweeter or something else in the speaker.

But at high volumes, like 12 o'clock,  the nait5i can struggle...But it is not the cause here because sun king is even tired at moderate volumes.

I did 3 o'clock possition once. Let's say two month ago. My ears are not okey since the beginning. I once restructured my whole room, put the speakers in an open possition, no walls around. 

Now, with Dac, still not okey. Even with turntable. It is a much better, but not at ease. 

If nait is not a good pair, my dealer should not be gready and sell me SCM's.

It is friday, i came home looking for some music, did some of your suggestions. Nothing

Really, I am so tired of that.

I am not aware of your listenig habits, but I did some loud listening (not transperent, not good) with my Kef's. Even with scm's, if i listen a bit loud, I can without any problem talk to a person in the room. I think that your meaning of loud is so much louder then my listening habbit.

Sun King posted:

I did 3 o'clock possition once. Let's say two month ago. My ears are not okey since the beginning. I once restructured my whole room, put the speakers in an open possition, no walls around. 

Now, with Dac, still not okey. Even with turntable. It is a much better, but not at ease. 

If nait is not a good pair, my dealer should not be gready and seel me SCM's.

It is friday, i came home looking for some music, did some of your suggestions. Nothing

Really, I am so tired of that.

 

 

it is a little sad, i understand.  But now we are some here thinking that your speakers are perhaps damaged, because after putting your speakers out of walls and listening at moderate volumes, you normally have not listening fatigue.  Your dealer is better placed to help you: borrow other standmounth speakers and verify if your atc are not damaged at dealer place.

If the atc are not damaged, it is the association nait5i/atc scm11 that doesn't work.

or the interaction of the ATC SCM11 and the room.

It must be incredibly frustrating for you to not enjoy your music. I would advise that you insist on some help from your dealer if it turns out that the speakers are not damaged. 

I am planning an upgrade in the next few months have but will be putting some finances aside for room treatments which I think you will have to seriously consider. 

Hope you can get things sorted to your satisfaction. 

Huge posted:

or the interaction of the ATC SCM11 and the room.

he had done it already...

Only partially.

ryder. posted:

Thanks for the clarification. I should be more specific. When I mentioned one cannot really listen to loud music in a small room, I was actually referring to the OP's room which is a bedroom. I am aware that one would be able to listen at high levels in a small dedicated room but in the context of a bedroom especially a smaller one with a bed on one side, it may not be a conducive or proper environment to listen to loud music. Apart from the bed occupying the space, I would expect other furniture in the room such as wardrobe or side table etc. that would contribute more to the acoustics of the room, more reflections at higher SPLs.

There are no more reflections at high spl than lower - reflections are the same proportion of total regardless of sound level.

But an asymetric layout will have an odd effect on the sound, and a closely reflecting wall will certainly have an undesirable muddying effect on the sound, which at high frequencies could indeed result in a tiring sound.

My son listens in a bedroom about the same dimensions, but his speakers are centred in the walls facing the corner where his bed is, and the sound is not too bad (however very differernt speakers, being my ancient IMF TLS50iis, which I suspect are rather less revealing in the mid/hi range)

I did two things today.

First I listened to small Spendor S3/5. The old version. While the sound was boxed and not deffined as with Scm 11, they were not hard to listen. After one hour at relatively high volume, It was ok.

Second, I reposition scm, you can see from the photo. The sound from this speakers is realy overwhelming. It goes to every corner of the room. Diatance to listening possition was extended for abot a meter an a half. It was almost ok, with some exceptions. Grinderman Micky Mouse, for example, was still a bit harsh. But with a distance, I more clearly notice the difference betwen the squeeze to dac or squezze alone.

https://ibb.co/g4m80F

https://ibb.co/eL4vfF

https://ibb.co/f8ySua

For goodness sake, I'm really not sure why you are persevering with speakers that obviously do not sound good to you in your system/room at the volume you listen. I have SCM 11s and I love them, but after reading this thread they are obviously not for you. Time to move on would be my advice and find a pair of speakers that make you happy. Apologies if this comes across as a little harsh but you can end up spending a lot of time, money and angst trying to build a system and reconfigure your living space for a pair of speakers when the simple thing to do would be to get a pair of speakers that work for you in the context of your system /room.