Representations of Pitch and Timbre Variation in Human Auditory Cortex

Sun King posted:

I did two things today.

First I listened to small Spendor S3/5. The old version. While the sound was boxed and not deffined as with Scm 11, they were not hard to listen. After one hour at relatively high volume, It was ok.

Second, I reposition scm, you can see from the photo. The sound from this speakers is realy overwhelming. It goes to every corner of the room. Diatance to listening possition was extended for abot a meter an a half. It was almost ok, with some exceptions. Grinderman Micky Mouse, for example, was still a bit harsh. But with a distance, I more clearly notice the difference betwen the squeeze to dac or squezze alone.

https://ibb.co/g4m80F

https://ibb.co/eL4vfF

https://ibb.co/f8ySua

hello sun, i did some searches for you in a french forum: members of this forum say that these speakers need a lot of current to be driven correctly. This members say that these speakers are difficult to drive and even difficult to place. They need careful decoupling too.

It was the same i said already to you: the nait5i is not the amp for these speakers.

Harbeth, spendor, proac, standmounth ,are better choice.  Sorry to say but your dealer is not very competent.

If you want to stay with atc scm11, you need more powerful amp like supernait or nap 200 in your nait5, it will be a minimum.

Go on google, tap " best amp for atc scm11 " and you will find forums with people having the atc scm11 and experienced them.

Innocent Bystander posted:

There are no more reflections at high spl than lower - reflections are the same proportion of total regardless of sound level.

But an asymetric layout will have an odd effect on the sound, and a closely reflecting wall will certainly have an undesirable muddying effect on the sound, which at high frequencies could indeed result in a tiring sound.

My son listens in a bedroom about the same dimensions, but his speakers are centred in the walls facing the corner where his bed is, and the sound is not too bad (however very differernt speakers, being my ancient IMF TLS50iis, which I suspect are rather less revealing in the mid/hi range)

I disagree with your statement in your first paragraph. There will be higher levels of reflection with the room having more bearing to the sound when SPLs are higher.

Sun King posted:

I did two things today.

First I listened to small Spendor S3/5. The old version. While the sound was boxed and not deffined as with Scm 11, they were not hard to listen. After one hour at relatively high volume, It was ok.

Second, I reposition scm, you can see from the photo. The sound from this speakers is realy overwhelming. It goes to every corner of the room. Diatance to listening possition was extended for abot a meter an a half. It was almost ok, with some exceptions. Grinderman Micky Mouse, for example, was still a bit harsh. But with a distance, I more clearly notice the difference betwen the squeeze to dac or squezze alone.

https://ibb.co/g4m80F

https://ibb.co/eL4vfF

https://ibb.co/f8ySua

Speakers such as Spendors or Harbeths will be easier on the ears as they sound softer in the treble. I believe they will also sound better at low volumes than the ATCs as they are fuller in the mids. It might be worthwhile to try different models from the Spendor or Harbeth range to see if you would get a more defined sound than the Spendor S3/5. Alternatively you can try to work with the SCM 11s to make it work in that room but that will take some effort in speaker positioning and treatment to the walls.

Yes I can vouch latest comments, either incompetent seller or hyped and not trustful advices over the net which tend to only help the formers' equipment sales .

One should give sensible advice on real experience and not write his rubbish to collect posts.

ryder. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

There are no more reflections at high spl than lower - reflections are the same proportion of total regardless of sound level.

But an asymetric layout will have an odd effect on the sound, and a closely reflecting wall will certainly have an undesirable muddying effect on the sound, which at high frequencies could indeed result in a tiring sound.

My son listens in a bedroom about the same dimensions, but his speakers are centred in the walls facing the corner where his bed is, and the sound is not too bad (however very differernt speakers, being my ancient IMF TLS50iis, which I suspect are rather less revealing in the mid/hi range)

I disagree with your statement in your first paragraph. There will be higher levels of reflection with the room having more bearing to the sound when SPLs are higher.

Assuming the speakers have the same polar radiation pattern regardless of sound level output, X% radiates direct at the listener and Y% radiates at an angle that reflects off another surface (e.g. The side wall). The ratio of X:Y is constant, therefore the proportion of energy reflected from other surfaces compared to the direct sound is the same, regardless of SPL at the listening position. I did preface that with an assumption about polar radiation pattern: I haven't researched the SCM11s - is there evidence that their polar radiation pattern changes significantly with SPL? If so, then of course my statement will be incorrect.

IB, the polar radiation pattern is determined by the physical shape and characteristics of the speaker (Cones, Domes and Cabinet).

These don't significantly change with driver movement, so you are completely right.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Assuming the speakers have the same polar radiation pattern regardless of sound level output, X% radiates direct at the listener and Y% radiates at an angle that reflects off another surface (e.g. The side wall). The ratio of X:Y is constant, therefore the proportion of energy reflected from other surfaces compared to the direct sound is the same, regardless of SPL at the listening position. I did preface that with an assumption about polar radiation pattern: I haven't researched the SCM11s - is there evidence that their polar radiation pattern changes significantly with SPL? If so, then of course my statement will be incorrect.

I think we are not referring to the same perspective. I am not referring to direct sound or the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound when I mentioned about higher reflected sound with higher SPLs. What I am saying is there will be more reflected sound when SPLs are higher. When listening levels are high, you will get more reflected sound in the room which is essentially room colouration. The room will have more bearing to the sound at higher levels. That is the reason I mentioned it would be useful to keep listening levels low to avoid the room from having too much bearing on the sound especially if the room is untreated with hard reflecting surfaces.

I don't have any issue with the speaker radiating the same ratio of sound waves both direct and angled/reflected off surfaces, or the polar radiation pattern of the speaker.

Come to think of it my first attempt to own Naim in the form of a Nait 5 didn't go well either. I found it increasingly irritating in the month I had it, sort of a synthetic aspect to the sound became more and more apparent with my modified mission 700s and fed from a turntable via a Michell iso. I ended up taking advantage of the dealers full value trade in within the first month if upgrading and bought a Rega pre power combo. My later return to Naim amps followed a successful purchase of a Nian CD player and was in the form of pre/power following an audition of a Supernait vs 202/200 with some Wilson Benesch speakers I found the same sound "glare" (I'll use this term for it but it doesn't quite discride it) from the SN as from the Nait 5 though it was only obvious when we switched to the combo and it went away. I bought a 282 in the end and used it with a flatcap and the rega power amp until I could get a Hicap and a 250. Perhaps the Creek will solve the problem for a bit less outlay but without a home audition you're playing roulette.

ryder. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Assuming the speakers have the same polar radiation pattern regardless of sound level output, X% radiates direct at the listener and Y% radiates at an angle that reflects off another surface (e.g. The side wall). The ratio of X:Y is constant, therefore the proportion of energy reflected from other surfaces compared to the direct sound is the same, regardless of SPL at the listening position. I did preface that with an assumption about polar radiation pattern: I haven't researched the SCM11s - is there evidence that their polar radiation pattern changes significantly with SPL? If so, then of course my statement will be incorrect.

I think we are not referring to the same perspective. I am not referring to direct sound or the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound when I mentioned about higher reflected sound with higher SPLs. What I am saying is there will be more reflected sound when SPLs are higher. When listening levels are high, you will get more reflected sound in the room which is essentially room colouration. The room will have more bearing to the sound at higher levels. That is the reason I mentioned it would be useful to keep listening levels low to avoid the room from having too much bearing on the sound especially if the room is untreated with hard reflecting surfaces.

I don't have any issue with the speaker radiating the same ratio of sound waves both direct and angled/reflected off surfaces, or the polar radiation pattern of the speaker.

 

The room has exactly the same bearing on the sound at high SPL as it does at low SPL; the physics of sound doesn't change when it gets louder.

Yes the reflected sound gets louder, but so does the direct sound.  The one that dominated at low SPL will still dominate at higher SPL.
The only thing that may change is that the listener may become more disturbed by the annoying nature of the sound.
The physics is still the same at all SPLs, so the fix is still the same at all SPLs.

Antonio1 posted:

Yes I can vouch latest comments, either incompetent seller or hyped and not trustful advices over the net which tend to only help the formers' equipment sales .

One should give sensible advice on real experience and not write his rubbish to collect posts.

 

read members comments on this forum for atc scm11 from 2015:  a lot of members say the same: these speakers need a lot of power....nap 150 not enough....nap 250 recommended. Same on french forums...   So yes, the seller of sun king is incompetent or not honest, yes, i say!      so nait5i is not the amp for these atc, or only at low volumes.  The member like rock/ hard rock...

I paired a Naim 5i - slightly less power than the 5si - with the SCM-11 some years back. I felt the 5i was underpowered with the 11s. I listened fairly near field and still felt that I had to wind the volume up to 11 or 12 o'clock to get them going. My setup sounded kind of dark - dulled in the treble - and certainly not bright, like yours, so that is odd. That may be down to cable. I used an 18 foot pair of Naim NACA5 and you are using Audioquest, correct? Maybe borrow a good long length of NACA5 from your dealer to see if that attenuates the treble a bit and brings out a bit more mid and mid bass.

In my case, I could tell that the 11s could be terrific, but needed more power to come to life, so I bought an ATC SIA2-150 integrated to power them. It powered them and the SCM-19s I had after that very well, but I still felt something was missing. I always seemed to be raising the volume to get punch and impact from the ATCs and when I did I left the room with my ears ringing from the treble. They are very neutral and fit best in rooms with a good amount of damping - carpets and soft furnishings - unlike mine, which was very hard and lively, like yours. It may be that as with me, you have an active room and may need a speaker that isn't so neutral. I tried some Harbeths to add some warmth at normal listening volumes and while they lack the punch and impact of the ATCs, which can be wonderfully visceral, they have a nice sense of balance that works in my room, especially paired with two subs, which take care of the bass.

A speaker that worked wonderfully for me with the 5i was the Epos M15. Very enjoyable little setup and I still have it in another room. I enjoy listening to that just as much as my main rig, so you may find that checking into some "lesser" speaker models may give you a better overall synergy with your 5si.

I agree with Alanbass, you can chase this all around like I did trying to make the ATCs work, but they may never work in that space and to your taste. I always got the impression in my 12x17 room that to get the most from them I wanted to put them a little further away from me, say, 12 feet instead of 8 feet, a bit closer to the back wall for boundary reinforcement in the bass, get some carpet on the floor and then raise the volume a bit. When I realized that, I realized that my room was too small, or too lively with the hard surfaces, for what I thought would work with these speakers, I tried the Harbeths and that worked a treat for me. I used P3ESRs first and then moved to 30.1s for a bit more scale and subtlety in the treble.

If you seek out some Harbeths to hear, I suspect your room, your tastes and the 5si may be best suited for the C7.

Another option, which is often not even considered in audiophile circles is something like the B&W M1 with a PV1 sub. Very compact, but they work fantastically in small spaces and have an addictive sound to them. I have a pair of B&W MM1 computer speakers, very similar to the M1, that we use as portables - for travel, on the porch, in different rooms, etc. - and they sound wonderful in small spaces. I feel like I'm missing nothing in terms of overall musical engagement.

If you stick with the ATC SCM-11s and loved what you heard at the dealer, I'd sell the 5si and buy the exact setup the dealer used to demo them - the Creek amp, the cables and the source. It all goes together. If the dealer had a room that was better damped than yours, your room may be the biggest obstacle and a change in speaker may be the only way to compensate for it.

Thanks again for your toughts. 

I can, to some degree, share the opinion with those, who say to change the speaker. As I said, I have spend some time moving speakers with some improvement. More distance help.

As far as Nait 5si - would an underpowered amp produce harshnes? Ok, if played very loud, otherwise not? I guess 11 o clock is not Nait point of harshnes? Less bass, less attack, yes. But harshnes? Creek is in the same league, so I dont expect any real difference. We are not talking about seriously loud in live in building with naighbours around. My SPL readings are from telephone amp and this could be very wrong.

Before I go on, I must say that I realy like the punch of the Scm 11. I love their deffinition of the bass and hights. They get me a bit spoiled. 

The problem about changing speakers is substential one. First, I would have to sell Scm 11 which could be a problem.

Second,  from what i read, Spendor might be good to demo. Problem is, that the local dealer has only old model to demo at home, and even just some models. He is also Neat dealer and I have a chance to demo Motive 1, but not new SX 2. 

Atc dealer is also Habarth dealer. No home demo at all. Not possible. And he thinks, they are to soft for me.

Clemenza, how do they manage rock and metal? Neat Motive have a big problem here. Heavy guittars are way to underpowerd in their presentation. Also, C7 are a bit pricey for me, any opinion on the smallest ones? Oh, and with rock, I don't mean Dire Straits or Jethro Tull  

If you are keeping the V1, I'd suggest getting rid of the Nait and getting a 200. The extra drive should give you what the speakers need. Not sure where you live but it would be ideal to get a used one, then you could sell it if it doesn't work out. 

If you have poor acoustics and you can't get some home demos you may find yourself in a never ending cycle of purchases. I'd first try to sort the acoustics...

I assume you are not based in the UK, and don't have access to dealers offering the level of service we have here? It does sound as though the ATCs aren't going to work for you, in which case selling them may be the only option. I would suggest that looking for speakers on the second hand market would be worth investigating. Then you have the option of a home 'demo', keeping them for as long as you like, and selling them on if you don't like them. That way, you might make a smaller loss, or even a profit, on the transaction. Of course, that assumes that there is a second hand market where you live.

If you do keep the ATCs, selling the Nait and buying a used 200 might be worth trying, in which case I would also try Naim speaker cable. Good luck!

Huge posted:

IB, the polar radiation pattern is determined by the physical shape and characteristics of the speaker (Cones, Domes and Cabinet).

These don't significantly change with driver movement, so you are completely right.

That is exactly my point, unless there is something unusual about the SCM11 (that I certainly wouldn't expect knowing ATCs heritage) - but the question was trying to elucidate the basis behind Ryder's expressed belief.

Sun King posted:

Thanks again for your toughts. 

I can, to some degree, share the opinion with those, who say to change the speaker. As I said, I have spend some time moving speakers with some improvement. More distance help.

As far as Nait 5si - would an underpowered amp produce harshnes? Ok, if played very loud, otherwise not? I guess 11 o clock is not Nait point of harshnes? Less bass, less attack, yes. But harshnes? Creek is in the same league, so I dont expect any real difference. We are not talking about seriously loud in live in building with naighbours around. My SPL readings are from telephone amp and this could be very wrong.

Before I go on, I must say that I realy like the punch of the Scm 11. I love their deffinition of the bass and hights. They get me a bit spoiled. 

The problem about changing speakers is substential one. First, I would have to sell Scm 11 which could be a problem.

Second,  from what i read, Spendor might be good to demo. Problem is, that the local dealer has only old model to demo at home, and even just some models. He is also Neat dealer and I have a chance to demo Motive 1, but not new SX 2. 

Atc dealer is also Habarth dealer. No home demo at all. Not possible. And he thinks, they are to soft for me.

Clemenza, how do they manage rock and metal? Neat Motive have a big problem here. Heavy guittars are way to underpowerd in their presentation. Also, C7 are a bit pricey for me, any opinion on the smallest ones? Oh, and with rock, I don't mean Dire Straits or Jethro Tull  

 

 

The great difficulty with speakers is that of all components in a hifi system they contribute the most to the character of the sound, so if one particular sound is what someone likes it can be very hard to find an acceptable alternative, all the more so if home demos are not readily achievavpble -  so I, for one, understand the quandary. Going back to what has already been said, if the SCM11s really sounded fantastic at the dealer, then what is needed is careful analysis of the differences between there and at home, and elimination of the differences as far as possible, focussing first on what is easiest or least costly to fix.

Clemenza posted:

I paired a Naim 5i - slightly less power than the 5si - with the SCM-11 some years back. I felt the 5i was underpowered with the 11s. I listened fairly near field and still felt that I had to wind the volume up to 11 or 12 o'clock to get them going. My setup sounded kind of dark - dulled in the treble - and certainly not bright, like yours, so that is odd. That may be down to cable. I used an 18 foot pair of Naim NACA5 and you are using Audioquest, correct? Maybe borrow a good long length of NACA5 from your dealer to see if that attenuates the treble a bit and brings out a bit more mid and mid bass.

In my case, I could tell that the 11s could be terrific, but needed more power to come to life, so I bought an ATC SIA2-150 integrated to power them. It powered them and the SCM-19s I had after that very well, but I still felt something was missing. I always seemed to be raising the volume to get punch and impact from the ATCs and when I did I left the room with my ears ringing from the treble. They are very neutral and fit best in rooms with a good amount of damping - carpets and soft furnishings - unlike mine, which was very hard and lively, like yours. It may be that as with me, you have an active room and may need a speaker that isn't so neutral. I tried some Harbeths to add some warmth at normal listening volumes and while they lack the punch and impact of the ATCs, which can be wonderfully visceral, they have a nice sense of balance that works in my room, especially paired with two subs, which take care of the bass.

A speaker that worked wonderfully for me with the 5i was the Epos M15. Very enjoyable little setup and I still have it in another room. I enjoy listening to that just as much as my main rig, so you may find that checking into some "lesser" speaker models may give you a better overall synergy with your 5si.

I agree with Alanbass, you can chase this all around like I did trying to make the ATCs work, but they may never work in that space and to your taste. I always got the impression in my 12x17 room that to get the most from them I wanted to put them a little further away from me, say, 12 feet instead of 8 feet, a bit closer to the back wall for boundary reinforcement in the bass, get some carpet on the floor and then raise the volume a bit. When I realized that, I realized that my room was too small, or too lively with the hard surfaces, for what I thought would work with these speakers, I tried the Harbeths and that worked a treat for me. I used P3ESRs first and then moved to 30.1s for a bit more scale and subtlety in the treble.

If you seek out some Harbeths to hear, I suspect your room, your tastes and the 5si may be best suited for the C7.

Another option, which is often not even considered in audiophile circles is something like the B&W M1 with a PV1 sub. Very compact, but they work fantastically in small spaces and have an addictive sound to them. I have a pair of B&W MM1 computer speakers, very similar to the M1, that we use as portables - for travel, on the porch, in different rooms, etc. - and they sound wonderful in small spaces. I feel like I'm missing nothing in terms of overall musical engagement.

If you stick with the ATC SCM-11s and loved what you heard at the dealer, I'd sell the 5si and buy the exact setup the dealer used to demo them - the Creek amp, the cables and the source. It all goes together. If the dealer had a room that was better damped than yours, your room may be the biggest obstacle and a change in speaker may be the only way to compensate for it.

very good and precise response. I hope sun king will enjoy and follow this advice.

ryder. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Assuming the speakers have the same polar radiation pattern regardless of sound level output, X% radiates direct at the listener and Y% radiates at an angle that reflects off another surface (e.g. The side wall). The ratio of X:Y is constant, therefore the proportion of energy reflected from other surfaces compared to the direct sound is the same, regardless of SPL at the listening position. I did preface that with an assumption about polar radiation pattern: I haven't researched the SCM11s - is there evidence that their polar radiation pattern changes significantly with SPL? If so, then of course my statement will be incorrect.

I think we are not referring to the same perspective. I am not referring to direct sound or the ratio of direct sound to reflected sound when I mentioned about higher reflected sound with higher SPLs. What I am saying is there will be more reflected sound when SPLs are higher. When listening levels are high, you will get more reflected sound in the room which is essentially room colouration. The room will have more bearing to the sound at higher levels. That is the reason I mentioned it would be useful to keep listening levels low to avoid the room from having too much bearing on the sound especially if the room is untreated with hard reflecting surfaces.

I don't have any issue with the speaker radiating the same ratio of sound waves both direct and angled/reflected off surfaces, or the polar radiation pattern of the speaker.

 

Yes there is more reflected sound in the room with higher SPL, but the proportion  of reflected sound vs direct sound is unchanged, so to the listener's ears it would be likely to sound the same in relative terms, in which case I still fail to see how the listening level has any bearing if the problem is due to reflected sound - if at 90 dB the reflected is, say, 30% of the total sound, and at 70dB it is also 30% of the total, the muddying effect will be the same. What do you believe I am missing here? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Yes there is more reflected sound in the room with higher SPL, but the proportion  of reflected sound vs direct sound is unchanged, so to the listener's ears it would be likely to sound the same in relative terms, in which case I still fail to see how the listening level has any bearing if the problem is due to reflected sound - if at 90 dB the reflected is, say, 30% of the total sound, and at 70dB it is also 30% of the total, the muddying effect will be the same. What do you believe I am missing here? 

It's actually very simple but you and Huge are making it sound complicated.

Proportion of reflected sound vs direct sound may be unchanged with varying SPL. However, I disagree that the muddying effect will be the same between 90dB, 70dB or 50dB. Perhaps you view "muddying effect" as the proportion between direct and reflected sound, and since the ratio remain unchanged the effect is assumed to be the same. I regard the muddying effect between different SPLs to be different as the intensity of sound between say 50dB and 90dB is different. In the context of a difficult rooms with compromised setups and poor acoustics especially smaller rooms with hard reflecting surfaces, the music will sound messier (higher muddying effect) at higher SPL as the intensity of the sound is higher.

If you still stick to the notion that the muddying effect will be the same at different SPLs, let's look at it in another (simpler) way. In a room with poor acoustics as mentioned above, between 50dB and 90dB music will sound muddier and the treble more piercing at 90dB as the intensity (SPL) is higher. The listener may find the music to sound acceptable at low listening levels as the intensity of the "muddying effect" is low. The muddying effect is higher at high SPLs as the intensity of sound from both reflected and direct is higher.

What do you believe I am missing here?

alanbass1 posted:

For goodness sake, I'm really not sure why you are persevering with speakers that obviously do not sound good to you in your system/room at the volume you listen. I have SCM 11s and I love them, but after reading this thread they are obviously not for you. Time to move on would be my advice and find a pair of speakers that make you happy. Apologies if this comes across as a little harsh but you can end up spending a lot of time, money and angst trying to build a system and reconfigure your living space for a pair of speakers when the simple thing to do would be to get a pair of speakers that work for you in the context of your system /room.

I tend to agree with this. However, do take note that the living space is actually a smallish bedroom with hard reflecting walls and the listening all done when sitting or lying on the bed. It's actually a rather difficult room with a compromised arrangement. In summary, I don't think it's going to be easy to achieve a satisfactory result even with a lot of work put in. Of course, the problem can still be alleviated by taking the necessary steps, one being a change in speakers.

recommended amps for the atc scm11, informations found on different forums and reviews:

atc 150, hegel 300, naim supernait, nap 250....the atc brand recommends minimum 75 w for these speakers.  nait5i is 50w.

underpowered speakers, at high volumes, can give listening fatigue...

Before spending any more money it would be wise to isolate the main culprit. Can you not loan the Creek amplifier from the dealer you purchased your speakers from? That would at least prove or eliminate whether it is the amplifier that is the main culprit. If they will not loan you the amp can you not take your Naim to the dealer and do a side by side comparison?

Ok I have looked at the OP's pictures, and those stands are definitely not what I would use with the ATCs... they look too high at greater than 60 cms and definitely not robust enough for the ATCs and I suspect coupling to bring a rather forward aggressive sound.. I would use wood or sturdy open framed stands like SomethingSolid or if you prefer high mass then the Atacama SL series ( though don't use their speaker stand coupler) . So my advice is try different stands... they make such a difference with monitor speakers.. and probably the hardest bit to get right.. but these are the components that can allow monitors to trump floor mounts.

As I discovered, get the stands right on the ATCs and they transform to a warm naturally detailed articulate sound where the speakers disappear and become a natural extension to the sounds around you... get them wrong and it's horrid forward, aggressive and tiring .. at least IME