Atc Scm 11 substitution

First, Atacama sl partially filled with fine kiln dry sand are a safe bet as that's what ATC (and Simon) recommend. Second, I would also only use Naim speaker cable with a Naim amp. Third, treat side and rear wall reflections. Fourth, make sure your source is sending bit perfect data (v1 can test for this) and use v1 usb input for best results using Naim din-din cable.

If you still have problem then i suspect either you simply do not like the sound signature of your gear, or you have a fault somewhere (such as amp unable to drive speakers correctly).

Another thing you could try is to connect v1 to amp using RCA out of v1 to RCA av input of amp and select amp av bypass mode (make sure volume of v1 is low and v1 preamp setup NOT fixed output). This will bypass the volume\pre amp of 5si and you may prefer the sound of v1 preamp.

I am unfortunatrly returnning v1 tommorow. 

Speaker stand can be part of the problem since. I would love to try with wooden ones. 

If the is a possibillity to home audion creek, i would wery much like to do It. Listening in a proffesional demo room at the dealer, I guess everything sounds acceptable there. It is a chamber with absorbtion pannels all around and no sound goes out of the rooms even if listened at very high volumes. 

Well no sudden changes and irrational expenses for now.

Let us know if the creek resolves your issues. Hope it works out for you.

Simon, good point about the stands.

On first inspection I though they were Atacama Nexus 6i, but as you point out they are 7s or possibly 10s (700mm tall or 1m tall, and less rigid as a result) putting the speaker too high.

However, on looking again, equally worrying is the absence of the Atacama badge on the base plate,  This suggests that they may be clones of the Atacama Nexus, and not even genuine ones.

If they are genuine Atacama Nexus stands, then you also need to check the tightness of the machine screws, particularly the ones at the base plate (but do the top plate as well).  Note that it's almost impossible to tighten the base plate screws properly as they use a PZ4 head (and very few people have an appropriate screwdriver for that).  It's far better to replace them with M8x25mm hex head screws (but then be careful not to over-tighten them).

Sun King posted:

I am unfortunatrly returnning v1 tommorow. 

Speaker stand can be part of the problem since. I would love to try with wooden ones. 

If the is a possibillity to home audion creek, i would wery much like to do It. Listening in a proffesional demo room at the dealer, I guess everything sounds acceptable there. It is a chamber with absorbtion pannels all around and no sound goes out of the rooms even if listened at very high volumes. 

Well no sudden changes and irrational expenses for now.

Now we have another change between the demonstration room and your room: Acoustic absorption.  The dealers room is lined with absorption panels; your room has bare walls.

Net result:
Acoustically speaking, your room is going to be a lot 'brighter' and the high frequencies are going to be much more prominent in you room - just what you are hearing.

Atacama stands come with stick on badges you can choose to apply. - I got mine direct from Atacama.

alanbass1 posted:

Atacama stands come with stick on badges you can choose to apply. - I got mine direct from Atacama.

Ah! thanks, I had earlier ones and the badge was made of plastic glued into a recess - they've obviously changed the design.

Do they still use the cross head (PZ4) screws in the base, or have they seen sense and used hex head or socket head screws now?

I am not sure what kind of screws they are, but they do not fall easy into the hole. I chose not to use Atacama stickers. I ordered atacama 60, but they send me 70. I choose to keep them since I wish to try Ckustom Deaign fs104, but was tight on the money at that time. My dealer borrowed Dynaudio (i think) 3. They were much heavier, but the sound did not came easier.

Yes, his demo room is like a bunker. Every meter of wall is covered in accoustic material. The sound there was so easy an smooth to listen.

I'm not sure the standard Custom Design FS104 are the right stand for ATC speakers - they're light enough but I don't think they'll be sufficiently rigid.  I use the FS104 Signature, and the large central column makes a big difference.

If going for metal stands with the ATC 11s I think you should look for open-frame stands that have a welded construction, not ones that are screwed together.  However Simon has much more knowledge of optimising ATC speakers so you should take his guidance.

I got the Moseco 6 fitted with base plates to add mass at the bottom and these work well in my set up. They still use cross head bolts but with the correct size screwdriver I got a real tight connection.

I struggled to find a PZ4 screwdriver bit (and completely failed, the closest I got was PH4 - not quite the same thing), hence using M8x25 hex head machine screws instead (also successful!).

Sun King posted:

Thanks again for your toughts. 

I can, to some degree, share the opinion with those, who say to change the speaker. As I said, I have spend some time moving speakers with some improvement. More distance help.

As far as Nait 5si - would an underpowered amp produce harshnes? Ok, if played very loud, otherwise not? I guess 11 o clock is not Nait point of harshnes? Less bass, less attack, yes. But harshnes? Creek is in the same league, so I dont expect any real difference. We are not talking about seriously loud in live in building with naighbours around. My SPL readings are from telephone amp and this could be very wrong.

Before I go on, I must say that I realy like the punch of the Scm 11. I love their deffinition of the bass and hights. They get me a bit spoiled. 

The problem about changing speakers is substential one. First, I would have to sell Scm 11 which could be a problem.

Second,  from what i read, Spendor might be good to demo. Problem is, that the local dealer has only old model to demo at home, and even just some models. He is also Neat dealer and I have a chance to demo Motive 1, but not new SX 2. 

Atc dealer is also Habarth dealer. No home demo at all. Not possible. And he thinks, they are to soft for me.

Clemenza, how do they manage rock and metal? Neat Motive have a big problem here. Heavy guittars are way to underpowerd in their presentation. Also, C7 are a bit pricey for me, any opinion on the smallest ones? Oh, and with rock, I don't mean Dire Straits or Jethro Tull  

 

 

Hi Sun King, I personally don't think ATC and Harbeth handle rock and metal in the same way, but it really depends on personal taste. It sounds like you mostly listen to metal or rock, so Harbeth may not be the best replacement. I listen to music of all kinds, including metal. I don't think my setup is ideal for metal, at least not the way I like to hear it, but it handles it surprisingly well considering how well it handles other genres, so I don't want to upset the balance I have by trying to make metal truly satisfying. My perfect metal speaker would probably not be neutral at all. It would probably be a sealed design, it would probably be a floor stander, it would have at least two bass woofers, the larger the better, and the frequency response would probably be a flat downward slope from the bass to the treble, say +3db in the bass to +0db in the midrange to -3db in the treble and it would probably require Krell amps to drive them 

The Harbeth P3ESR is maybe the most similar to your ATC-SCM11s in that they are sealed speakers, but they roll off pretty quickly at the bottom end and the ATC goes a little lower and hits a lot harder when powered well. The Harbeth I felt was more subtle in the treble. Not necessarily more resolved, just maybe less accentuated, so the treble was lively but easier to live with in a bright room. The Harbeths can do a marvelous job in the midrange, but they don't have the sense of dynamic power and slam that the ATCs are capable of. Both speakers are truly capable of creating a spellbinding experience with almost any music, but the ATCs I think have more potential for rock and metal.

Maybe something from Dynaudio, Totem, Bryston, B&W or Revel would fit the bill for you, but most of those may need even more power than the ATCs to get going. The Bryston Mini T may be a good option. That speaker is a largish stand mount, but it can slam without sounding coarse. I don't know how it would work with the 5si though. I heard it on a Bryston 135. Surprising speaker, that one. The Model T was truly excellent with metal, but it's enormous. The Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2, bookshelf or Tower, with the RAAL tweeter may be excellent in your room for metal, but you would have to order them and they might be too tough a load for the 5si. Same goes for something from Tekton. Those guys offer mail order and make good rock speakers. The Golden Ear Triton, though big, may be good for you because they have adjustable onboard subs, and I've heard them sound fantastic with metal.

With limited dealer access you could definitely get on a buying-selling-buying-selling merry-go-round that you are already tired of. I've been there, so I definitely understand your frustration. I would hit up some metal forums on the net for suggestions also. Those guys may have "been there, done that" with pro audio and audiophile speakers and ended up with something else entirely as a more satisfying presentation.

I would try some of the advice here that doesn't cost much as a next step. Simon's advice for getting the ATCs on good stands is definitely something you want to do, and maybe set them closer to a back wall, but away from side walls so they get some boundary reinforcement in the bass. Sometimes in a small room what works is not what you expect. In the 10 foot by 12 foot room I have my 5i and Epos setup in, I put the Epos speakers in the corners, aimed at the opposite corners of the room. I did that simply because I work out in that room and needed to get them out of the way of swinging barbells. The funny part is that in that room, it works perfectly. The whole room somehow loads evenly and sounds fantastic. It isn't a place I would think of placing speakers from an acoustical perspective, I just did it because I needed to, and it ended up being the perfect place for them.

Borrowing the Creek amp is pretty key to replicating the setup you loved at the dealer, if only to rule out the amp as the culprit in your space. You never know, the Creek may have a slightly different behavior with the load the ATCs present to the amp than the Naim does and that may attenuate what's bothering you. Try it with the cables the dealer used if he'll loan you those also. Also see if they can loan you a long length of Naim NACA5 cable to try with your 5si. I found when I used 7 meters or so of Naim NACA5 cable, the longer length had a subtle way of taking some edge off the treble and the presentation felt like the treble tucked more nicely into the harmonics of the music than standing out as a transient artifact. It may even be a very noticeable difference from the Audioquests you are using now.

Good luck man, I can commiserate with you on the lively room problem. Keep us posted on how you make out. I think it's awesome that you are posting your experiences, frustration and all. It will help others down the line who face a similar situation and read through your thread. It's tough getting things to be satisfying, yet non-fatiguing, without going broke.

ryder. posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Yes there is more reflected sound in the room with higher SPL, but the proportion  of reflected sound vs direct sound is unchanged, so to the listener's ears it would be likely to sound the same in relative terms, in which case I still fail to see how the listening level has any bearing if the problem is due to reflected sound - if at 90 dB the reflected is, say, 30% of the total sound, and at 70dB it is also 30% of the total, the muddying effect will be the same. What do you believe I am missing here? 

It's actually very simple but you and Huge are making it sound complicated.

Proportion of reflected sound vs direct sound may be unchanged with varying SPL. However, I disagree that the muddying effect will be the same between 90dB, 70dB or 50dB. Perhaps you view "muddying effect" as the proportion between direct and reflected sound, and since the ratio remain unchanged the effect is assumed to be the same. I regard the muddying effect between different SPLs to be different as the intensity of sound between say 50dB and 90dB is different. In the context of a difficult rooms with compromised setups and poor acoustics especially smaller rooms with hard reflecting surfaces, the music will sound messier (higher muddying effect) at higher SPL as the intensity of the sound is higher.

If you still stick to the notion that the muddying effect will be the same at different SPLs, let's look at it in another (simpler) way. In a room with poor acoustics as mentioned above, between 50dB and 90dB music will sound muddier and the treble more piercing at 90dB as the intensity (SPL) is higher. The listener may find the music to sound acceptable at low listening levels as the intensity of the "muddying effect" is low. The muddying effect is higher at high SPLs as the intensity of sound from both reflected and direct is higher.

What do you believe I am missing here?

I struggle to understand why you believe the muddying effect will be greater at higher sound levels simply because the sound levels, reflected and direct, are greater. But what can change at different SPLs is the behaviour of the speakers themselves, which of course would manifest itself in the quality of sound heard. That said, my understanding at least of the larger ATCs is that their drivers excel in linearity, and maybe are less prone to such effects than many other speakers.

But clearly neither of us can recognise what the other is arguing, regarding room effect, so we will simply have to agree to disagree, as it doesn't really help the OP - though we do agree that the room is a distinct suspect in the described problem.

i find topics for atc scm11 in naim forum, there are a few on this speakers:  there are some members that don't like the association of atc and naim. Naim amp can sound a little bright in the mid treble, and atc are not the softest speakers around.  Creek amps are on the soft on the ear side.   The last thing is the audioquest speakers cables, perhaps not a good match for naim....

So perhaps it is just the association of naim amp, atc speakers and audioquest speaker cable that doesn't work for sun king.  Personally i always preferred delicate sounding speakers and cables with naim amps, to compensate the little brightness and edginess of naim amps. And my music tastes are more on the very dynamic side...

The other aspects i read on these atc scm11 topics:   members always say that these speakers need a lot of power to really open and reveal, more power than 100 w for what i read.

So , for myself, in sun king situation, i will begin to borrow a different amp than the nait5i, like creek, exposure, audiolab ( the same price range of nait 5i) to see how it will sound in the same context.

Hi I used a nail 5i for a while ... it is a great little amp ...  be very careful over speaker placement .... keep speakers away from hard flanking walls by a couple of feet ... some damping on walls will help. If you speakers are near side walls ... it can do things to the high frequencies....

I somehow feel in love with naim simplycity. I borrowed it and use it for a week with my previous speakers. Oh, what a difference. With Rotel, they were all hars and agressive (but easy to listen), with Nait, they had a greater punch and deffinition, while sound did came out smoother. 

I was reading reviews and comparisons of Naim and Creek and the Naim "wins" with most of them. Less agressive, cleaner, musical, rhytmical. All good.

I will try to arrange a home demo of a Creek, but will step forward and do it (if possible at all) with Creek 100. More power shoud, in theory, produce less harsnes with scm11, right.

I will consider Simons  and Huge advice. Better stand, if possible, wooden. Could it, at least for now, help to remove my stand and use some wooden surface for the speakers? Is there any sanse in that wood in general could make speaker sound more gentle? I guess this could sacrifice bass tightnes, but for now I could live with this. 

Clemenza, thank you for your suggestions. I would still very much like to hear Harbeths. I am not all into rock and metal. I was more refering to my experiance with Neat Motive, which for my taste, simply kill electric guitars. My test vary from jazz to world, sometimes pop, but I would like to hear that sparkeled electricity from Jeff Back guitars, brutal force of Slayer and Sepultura and angry poerty of Noir Desir compositions. Small sacrifice for easy long listening is acceptable.

I guess this topic will be a good read for everyone struggeling to get the good, non fatigue sound.

Pierre, the ATCs don't need a lot of power to open up... that is a myth based on very early designs of ATC speakers that had quite a challenging dip in the impedance curve. The latest ATCs are quite benign. Sure I wouldn't use an amp with less than 50 watts into 8 ohms per channel for anything up to the 19s because of the infinite baffle designs, but other than that should be fine.

The other area is softness .. the older ATCs used a SEAS tweeter and could err on being a little hard but revealing with some content, especially poor recordings... however the newer designs use ATCs own hf driver and the sound is quite delicate, sweet and revealing... certainly quite different from earlier ATC designs and for the better IMO.

The nice thing about the current ATCs is they are not too prominent with the often Hi-Fi traits of exaggerated treble or bass which artificially emphasise detail and I feel the ATCs  provide  quite a balanced neutral, dynamic  sound without the 'loudness button' effect... but are consequently  quite transparent to the electronics and shortcomings elsewhere whilst allowing you to hear into the masters.

Because of this I think Naim and ATC have quite a similar focus and are a great match. Yes if you want a 'fruitier' slightly exaggerated sound from your speakers that convey a sense of the music and detail other than replay the master for what it is, then yes there are plenty of other designs to choose from other than ATC

Sun King.. the stands are all about energy transfer and resonance... I suspect your current stands may be resonating in the upper mids providing a hardening and forwarding of the sound... or even because of the height providing a resonance point with your ceiling ... might be wrong of course... but worth a try.

As an idea, try some wooden kitchen stools, with sorbothane between speaker and stool. It will be far from perfect... but if you hear a significant sonic change, perhaps with the traits you don't like reduced... then it's worth borrowing some proper stands from your dealer and experimenting

Simon, I will do that.

Me to can not give up on ATC (in relation to my room) so easily. From what I read, people find them non aggressive and are usually fond of ATC/Naim combination. Do you think a test with Nait XS 2 with its's 70 W could make any difference? Nait 5Si is 60 W apm. 

I tried a Nat XS2 with an older pair of SCM 12s.. it seemed to work find, albeit a slightly soft and cuddly sound... not really to my taste.. I prefer something a little more visceral 

Simon, do you have any photos of wooden stands and info about wood that would go well with scm11. I could try and make my own.

I use these from Russ Andrews - but i place the ATC 19s directly on the top platform and don't use the Torlyte couplers

Mrs SinS like them as well which helps 

Beautiful

Do you think, something like this (with base plate) could also work?

Sun King posted:

Simon, I will do that.

Me to can not give up on ATC (in relation to my room) so easily. From what I read, people find them non aggressive and are usually fond of ATC/Naim combination. Do you think a test with Nait XS 2 with its's 70 W could make any difference? Nait 5Si is 60 W apm. 

I borrowed a pair of ATC SCM 11 speakers a week ago to try in my room (22 ft long, 10ft wide, listening across the short width) with my Naim XS1-2 ( not the newest version). They were very good indeed about 6 inches away from the wall, better for me than my current PMC 20.21speakers. The problem for my wife was that they are not produced in an oak finish so they had to go.

Give the XS a go.