Atc Scm 11 substitution

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Pierre, the ATCs don't need a lot of power to open up... that is a myth based on very early designs of ATC speakers that had quite a challenging dip in the impedance curve. The latest ATCs are quite benign. Sure I wouldn't use an amp with less than 50 watts into 8 ohms per channel for anything up to the 19s because of the infinite baffle designs, but other than that should be fine.

The other area is softness .. the older ATCs used a SEAS tweeter and could err on being a little hard but revealing with some content, especially poor recordings... however the newer designs use ATCs own hf driver and the sound is quite delicate, sweet and revealing... certainly quite different from earlier ATC designs and for the better IMO.

The nice thing about the current ATCs is they are not too prominent with the often Hi-Fi traits of exaggerated treble or bass which artificially emphasise detail and I feel the ATCs  provide  quite a balanced neutral, dynamic  sound without the 'loudness button' effect... but are consequently  quite transparent to the electronics and shortcomings elsewhere whilst allowing you to hear into the masters.

Because of this I think Naim and ATC have quite a similar focus and are a great match. Yes if you want a 'fruitier' slightly exaggerated sound from your speakers that convey a sense of the music and detail other than replay the master for what it is, then yes there are plenty of other designs to choose from other than ATC

i don't know who is right, but i read topics on this forum, from 2014 and 2015, on these atc scm11:  observations were like" nait not enough ", " these speakers need more than nait xs..."...and the same on recent french forums.

But perhaps the problem is also( and more) on the support as you said.  Or maybe the tonality of atc/naim....   i hope sun king will find.

Sun King posted:

I somehow feel in love with naim simplycity. I borrowed it and use it for a week with my previous speakers. Oh, what a difference. With Rotel, they were all hars and agressive (but easy to listen), with Nait, they had a greater punch and deffinition, while sound did came out smoother. 

I was reading reviews and comparisons of Naim and Creek and the Naim "wins" with most of them. Less agressive, cleaner, musical, rhytmical. All good.

I will try to arrange a home demo of a Creek, but will step forward and do it (if possible at all) with Creek 100. More power shoud, in theory, produce less harsnes with scm11, right.

I will consider Simons  and Huge advice. Better stand, if possible, wooden. Could it, at least for now, help to remove my stand and use some wooden surface for the speakers? Is there any sanse in that wood in general could make speaker sound more gentle? I guess this could sacrifice bass tightnes, but for now I could live with this. 

Clemenza, thank you for your suggestions. I would still very much like to hear Harbeths. I am not all into rock and metal. I was more refering to my experiance with Neat Motive, which for my taste, simply kill electric guitars. My test vary from jazz to world, sometimes pop, but I would like to hear that sparkeled electricity from Jeff Back guitars, brutal force of Slayer and Sepultura and angry poerty of Noir Desir compositions. Small sacrifice for easy long listening is acceptable.

I guess this topic will be a good read for everyone struggeling to get the good, non fatigue sound.

i hope you will find finally... the support would be the most easy solution. When i say that some don't like the naim/atc association, i wanted to point that perhaps it is your case. But there are also a lot that are very happy with this association, but not all.

You have liked the creek/ atc at your dealer place, so it is a strong indication.  Naim is perhaps better than creek on most musical terms, but the most important and difficult is to find the best amp/ speakers combination: it is the key.

I had own naim nap 150, nap 200, nap 250 and now nap 300dr:  i have borrowed proac, bw, spendor, sonus faber, dynaudio in last 15 years, and didn't like the association with naim amps....i choosed apertura.    Each person is different and one association may not suit to another person.

I think it may be that, like some other speaker designs that have remained true to their studio monitor heritage, ATC designs clearly show up small differences in the signal fed to them.  As such they'll show more benefit from better amplifiers than many less transparent designs.  The Spendor SP2s I have do the same trick - they are an easy load to drive and can be driven by a Nait 5i, but also show the advantage of a Nait XS 2, and they also clearly demonstrate the greater talents of a NAP 300DR!  The better the amp the better the sound.  This however doesn't mean that they can't be successfully powered by a base model Nait.

There are, however, some speaker designs that have wild variations in their impedance curves; these types of speakers actually make amps of lower capability sound worse than they are, as they present a load to the power amp that it was never designed to drive.  Some Dynaudio speakers are notorious for this (and many other manufacturers; but I only have personal experience of this with Dynaudio).  Whilst these designs can work very well with price compatible amps, if used with a less capable amp the result is awful as the amp starts to struggle with the load.  The newer generation of ATC models aren't like this, they don't drag the amp down with a difficult load, they just show the source, amp and room for what they are; on the other hand they don't mask detail to flatter amps either, so they also show substantial benefit from better amps.

I have considered ATC speakers to replace my Neats but there are no local dealers that stock them. I have therefore tried to read as much as I can about them before considering travelling to hear them.

There are lots of reviews and most hilight the importance of the quality of source and amplification (not necessarily the power but this will help I guess as long as not grossly underpowered). This gave the impression that they may sound rather compromised if the front end and general set up isn't up to the job. So this supports the previous post by Huge. I have therefore decided to upgrade my electronics and look at room acoustics before changing speakers also reinforced by advise from this forum and dealer. 

This doesn't really help your predicament if like a lot of us your budget is restricted. As frustrating as it is try not to rush too much to resolve the problem and this may give you some time to increase your budget. 

One more thought on Harbeth suggestion, I have never heard them but I think they do need a reasonable amount of free space to work properly. With your current speaker set up they may struggle to work properly. Hopefully some Harbeth owners may have some advice or correct me if I'm wrong. 

Stuart, no rush. I made small rearangements as suggested. Moved my left speaker away from side wall and toe it in a bit. It think there is a progress. Today I will drive scm 11 with 80W amp. Will see if there is going to be any difference.

I may, I found this out yesterday, really listen to loud. I think that this is Scm problem, since they come alive at a certain point if I turn the volune up. Vocals are then as they are in the room, drum has a great power ...

If I may ask, what is your source and amplification?

Sun King posted:

Stuart, no rush. I made small rearangements as suggested. Moved my left speaker away from side wall and toe it in a bit. It think there is a progress. Today I will drive scm 11 with 80W amp. Will see if there is going to be any difference.

I may, I found this out yesterday, really listen to loud. I think that this is Scm problem, since they come alive at a certain point if I turn the volune up. Vocals are then as they are in the room, drum has a great power ...

If I may ask, what is your source and amplification?

i am curious to know if this 80w amp will help.  If you don't want to invest in other support for speakers, you can try little hard breadboards under each speaker ( between speaker and support), the sound will open a little, will be a touch softer and also focused too. if you have ikea store near you....

Don't know, Pierre. Will let you know. This is a bit more then minimum requirements. Thanks for your comments.

Sun King posted:

Stuart, no rush. I made small rearangements as suggested. Moved my left speaker away from side wall and toe it in a bit. It think there is a progress. Today I will drive scm 11 with 80W amp. Will see if there is going to be any difference.

I may, I found this out yesterday, really listen to loud. I think that this is Scm problem, since they come alive at a certain point if I turn the volune up. Vocals are then as they are in the room, drum has a great power ...

If I may ask, what is your source and amplification?

Why don't you use the speakers as ATC advise? Toe them in, and possibly raise them, so you are listening on axis. This will make them "come alive" at lower listening levels. If you listen to them off axis, no wonder they sound a bit dull.  ATC do know what they are doing!

Yes I don't really recommend listening at high listening levels all the time ... your hearing is not designed that way and your ears will biologically distort and compress the sound which is why things might start to 'sound' different.. most recorded music is compressed to a degree, and with broadcast music there are standards that define this, so you really don't need to listen loud.. certainly  the smaller two way ATC speakers don't 'need' to be driven loud to enjoy audio content, as they are extememy revealing.. sure you can play loud to get that loud compression effect great on some rock music ... but you don't need to.. the ATCs will give you that choice if your amp and environment permit.

Yesterday I had a brief encounter, which will be extended in the following days - Supernait 1 with my speakers. 

I can only say - OMG. With 20 watts more then my 5Si, I have a much better idea what people mean when the say that the amp grips the speakers. 

Even without using SN internal DAC (I will try this in the next days) , the sound was not harsh. It was smooth, warmer and in my face. What a joy. 

Simon, since I don't need so much resolution as you do, and if Naim XS is soundwise more like Supernait then 5si, maybe it a good choice to try. 

Sun King posted:

Yesterday I had a brief encounter, which will be extended in the following days - Supernait 1 with my speakers. 

I can only say - OMG. With 20 watts more then my 5Si, I have a much better idea what people mean when the say that the amp grips the speakers. 

Even without using SN internal DAC (I will try this in the next days) , the sound was not harsh. It was smooth, warmer and in my face. What a joy. 

Simon, since I don't need so much resolution as you do, and if Naim XS is soundwise more like Supernait then 5si, maybe it a good choice to try. 

I have a SN1 driving my BW CM1s and I always call it the 'slavedriver'. She completely grips the speakers and has full control. It converted me to Naimee.

Dac is so-so, but ok. Better to feed the SN1 with a Mojo or so.

Edit:

I currently feed it with a ChromeCast Audio.

Sun King posted:

Yesterday I had a brief encounter, which will be extended in the following days - Supernait 1 with my speakers. 

I can only say - OMG. With 20 watts more then my 5Si, I have a much better idea what people mean when the say that the amp grips the speakers. 

Even without using SN internal DAC (I will try this in the next days) , the sound was not harsh. It was smooth, warmer and in my face. What a joy. 

Simon, since I don't need so much resolution as you do, and if Naim XS is soundwise more like Supernait then 5si, maybe it a good choice to try. 

Good to hear you appear to be making progress, I have Linn Kans & the difference when driven by a NAP200 as opposed to my 140 was a significant improvement at all levels.

Sun King, good to know the Supernait changed everything. It appears that all the earlier talk and suggestions about the amplifier not making a difference and room treatments are now down the drain. Sometimes, you really need to try for yourself just to see if it's really the problem.

Guess the SCM11s will stay after all.

Yes, SCM 11 will stay.

The one thing that may go is 5SI. I will also try XS2. Both, XS and SN are ex demo. I wonder how much they differ. 

I think it is a combination of moving speaker from the wall and toeing it a bit and a better amp. I will continue with other changes that people suggested in this discussion. I can not express my gratitude to all that participated. 

Sun King posted:

Yesterday I had a brief encounter, which will be extended in the following days - Supernait 1 with my speakers. 

I can only say - OMG. With 20 watts more then my 5Si, I have a much better idea what people mean when the say that the amp grips the speakers. 

Even without using SN internal DAC (I will try this in the next days) , the sound was not harsh. It was smooth, warmer and in my face. What a joy. 

Simon, since I don't need so much resolution as you do, and if Naim XS is soundwise more like Supernait then 5si, maybe it a good choice to try. 

That's why repeatedly told you not to believe who has no knowledge at all  of the speakers but  blame the amp.

Pretty sure Supernait as a start to let them 'sing' , it's a lot better and suited to them than XS.

Enjoy ,ATCs are really something!

This topic is also a good read:

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...o-focus-260-with-xs2

About someone going for an xs2, and ending up with a SN1.

Antonio,

Before it was revealed that the dealer demo was done with a completely different amp...
1  If it's a fundamental problem with the amp and speakers, why did they work so well in the dealer's showroom?
2  Sun Kings description of the effect (excessive treble / harshness) isn't the mark of an amp that's struggling at moderate levels.
3  He said that it improved at higher volumes (the reverse would be true if the amp is struggling).
Therefore at that time all the evidence actually given did point to the speaker / room acoustic interaction.

After it was revealed that the amp was different: as there was almost no connection between the demo system and the system at home, so all bets were off.  This critical piece of information was only revealed very late in the thread.  Only after this does the amp become the logical candidate for change.

It's disingenuous of you to imply that several of us were giving bad advice:  The advice was valid given the information presented - the problem was that the information was misleading due to critical pieces of information that were not given.

Ardbeg

Dynaudio 260s are a known difficult load (very low min impedance and high phase angles), the small ATCs aren't that difficult a load but are very revealing; that and Sun King's problems are quite different.

Sun King

It appears you've found an amp whose sonic characteristics match your speakers to your room (and it's a big technical  improvement on the 5Si).  Is it in your price range?  It's probably worth trying the XS since Simon described the sound with the XS 2 as cuddly, and that might also suit your current room.

Given the choice though (now much better and more expensive amps are on the table) the SN1 is likely to be more consistent in different environments.

SN1 blow my mind. I newer tought that sound can be so good (and it may be even better). 

Both, SN and XS 2, are demo amps, both used quite a lot. They is araund 300 euros price difference between them, but all comes down if I will be able to sell 5si (and how much would I get for it).

Huge, your advice was very good. I learned a lot and will come back to read it again. My room is for sure part of the problem.

Huge, either you know the speaker or don't .

Yu don't ,It's that easy , conjectures being useless.

Hi Sun King,

For €300 difference the SN1 has a much better power supply than the XS 2 and is also more upgradable - if you can afford the extra money that's good - it'll see you well into the future.

Simon-in-Suffolk's advice on the positioning and supports for the speakers is also very well worth listening to - he has considerable experience with small ATC speakers and has done a lot of work optimising them.

Glad its starting to get sorted, with the SN1 and SCM11s you now have the fundamental foundations of a REALLY good system! 

Antonio1 posted:

Huge, either you know the speaker or don't .

Yu don't ,It's that easy , conjectures being useless.

I could also say either you understand logic or you don't.

However, in my case I assume that you do understand logic, but are just ignoring it, trying to make a point for some reason best known to yourself.

And having designed electronic equipment including HiFi amps, I do know how amps and speakers interact, and yes I do know the electrical characteristics of the SCM11.  I also have a fair amount of experience of dealing with room acoustics and the interaction of room acoustics with speakers.

Sun King posted:

Yesterday I had a brief encounter, which will be extended in the following days - Supernait 1 with my speakers. 

I can only say - OMG. With 20 watts more then my 5Si, I have a much better idea what people mean when the say that the amp grips the speakers. 

Even without using SN internal DAC (I will try this in the next days) , the sound was not harsh. It was smooth, warmer and in my face. What a joy. 

Simon, since I don't need so much resolution as you do, and if Naim XS is soundwise more like Supernait then 5si, maybe it a good choice to try. 

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Huge posted:

 

Ardbeg

Dynaudio 260s are a known difficult load (very low min impedance and high phase angles), the small ATCs aren't that difficult a load but are very revealing; that and Sun King's problems are quite different.

 

I'm sure you are right here. As being a SN1 owner, I'm excited again that someone has identified that the SN1 seems to solve many issues. Every now and then we see this happening on the forum. The SN1 - and surely the SN2 will do this even better - seems to be a magic box.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Huge posted:

 

Ardbeg

Dynaudio 260s are a known difficult load (very low min impedance and high phase angles), the small ATCs aren't that difficult a load but are very revealing; that and Sun King's problems are quite different.

 

I'm sure you are right here. As being a SN1 owner, I'm excited again that someone has identified that the SN1 seems to solve many issues. Every now and then we see this happening on the forum. The SN1 - and surely the SN2 will do this even better - seems to be a magic box.

Yes, it's a seriously good amp, only the toughest of speaker loads defeat it.
With the addition of a HiCapDR it takes another significant step up as well, with that helping the pre-amp, so it even has an excellent upgrade path!

Keler Pierre posted:

ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!

Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?