Atc Scm 11 substitution
Posted by: Sun King on 16 June 2017
Dear community.
One year ago I bought my first Naim (Nait 5si) and month latter Scm 11 speakers. Unfortunately I did't have a chance to listen to them in my home environment since this is not a dealer's policy, but I had extensive listening at his audio room. Speakers, connected to my amp, sounded great and very easy to listen even at very high volume.
Well, situation in my room was quite shocking. The transparency and beautiful sound is still there, but it comes with an ear fatigue, sometimes after 15 minutes, other times after hour of listening. It was very bad at the beginning, but I manage to place speakers in position that gives me minimal unpleasent feeling. But it is still there.
I would like to try some other speakers, maybe a bit warmer, but without loosing the transparency. With Naim I auditioned Neat Motive. They completely killed rock'n'roll with polite guitar.
Can you give me a hint for what model to where to look, please. There is a huge problem here, since I am limited to audition only a few most commercial brands (B&W, KEF ...).
Thank you.
Regards.
The choice of a better amp doesn't invalidate the advice on room acoustics and speaker placement...
Fingers crossed to that extensive demo...
Huge posted:Keler Pierre posted:ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!
Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?
i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts.... All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough. just that. It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences.... But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ... the most important is that sun king is happy now.
Keler Pierre posted:Huge posted:Keler Pierre posted:ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!
Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?
i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts.... All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough. just that. It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences.... But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ... the most important is that sun king is happy now.
"just the right amp and more power" That seems to specify power as the important thing.
Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass). It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers). Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution. (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)
As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).
Huge posted:Keler Pierre posted:Huge posted:Keler Pierre posted:ah, finally you got: it was that, like some said: just the right amp and more power. I am happy for you!
Do you really believe it's the extra 20W that make the difference (rather than the better power supply and higher current [but 'slower'] poweramp)?
i don't know, just said a better amp, more power for sure but as you point also better power supply, parts.... All i said before is that the scm11 need a better amp to drive these not so easy to drive speakers.... and a lot of members from different topics on scm11 said that nait5 is not enough. just that. It was the critical point and i was right: but i just read members experiences.... But the other periferical aspects are also important, like support, positioning, ... the most important is that sun king is happy now.
"just the right amp and more power" That seems to specify power as the important thing.
Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass). It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers). Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution. (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)
As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).
other possibility: sun king had headache when he was listening.....or a mosquito was flying in his tweeter at that time...
The de Havilland Mosquito is far to big to fly around inside a tweeter! 
Huge posted:The de Havilland Mosquito is far to big to fly around inside a tweeter!
Depends how good a pilot you are! A bullseye would be of the 20mm canons precisely surrounding the tweeter dome.
Huge posted:The de Havilland Mosquito is far to big to fly around inside a tweeter!
but the tiger mosquito yes....
Huge posted:"just the right amp and more power" That seems to specify power as the important thing.
Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass). It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers). Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution. (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)
As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).
It's a general remark that most people will make when they compare Naim amps. As we all know, the better Naim amps will have higher wattage when going up the range. Although the difference of 10W may not make any meaningful difference in terms of power, it is still higher powered amp. The better amps may come with better power supply, current and transient figures among other things, though most will usually regard the better amp to be a more powerful amp since it's easier to mention "more powerful".
(*I am aware that power figures are not representative of the true capability of an amplifier as I used to have a 140W Sony amp which didn't sound half as powerful).
As for partial success with the Supernait, it is true that room acoustics might resolve the problem. Even with the Supernait on board, room treatments will likely bring further gains to the system. Nevertheless, some folks may just find a partial solution to be adequate as there might be restrictions with a full solution.
Huge posted:Antonio1 posted:Huge, either you know the speaker or don't .
Yu don't ,It's that easy , conjectures being useless.
I could also say either you understand logic or you don't.
However, in my case I assume that you do understand logic, but are just ignoring it, trying to make a point for some reason best known to yourself.
And having designed electronic equipment including HiFi amps, I do know how amps and speakers interact, and yes I do know the electrical characteristics of the SCM11. I also have a fair amount of experience of dealing with room acoustics and the interaction of room acoustics with speakers.
No, sorry if I seemed rude.
Fact is, it's a very,very particular speaker which may easily lead to strong unsatisfaction , for personal experience its rather difficult to me not to set down these markers for the debate.
Ah, thank you Antonio, it seemed to come across in a different way; I apologise, I misinterpreted the intent behind your words..
And yes they do have a particular style of presentation. However Sun King seemed to like that, so, on that point, he has me confused.
ryder. posted:Huge posted:"just the right amp and more power" That seems to specify power as the important thing.
Actually SCM11s aren't particularly difficult to drive (4.8Ω min in the treble, 50º phase angle maximum in the sub-bass). It's just that they clearly show up the deficiencies of less capable amps (as is usually the case with true monitor type speakers). Less revealing speakers mask these deficiencies with lower resolution. (In fact even QAcoustics 3020s and Whafedale Diamond 225s are both more difficult loads for an amp to drive, but they reveal less about the amp and source.)
As Pedro points out, the fact that a better amp sorted the problem doesn't invalidate the possibility that sorting the room acoustics could equally have sorted the problem (since that possibility was only partially tested with only partial results, but those were positive).
It's a general remark that most people will make when they compare Naim amps. As we all know, the better Naim amps will have higher wattage when going up the range. Although the difference of 10W may not make any meaningful difference in terms of power, it is still higher powered amp. The better amps may come with better power supply, current and transient figures among other things, though most will usually regard the better amp to be a more powerful amp since it's easier to mention "more powerful".
(*I am aware that power figures are not representative of the true capability of an amplifier as I used to have a 140W Sony amp which didn't sound half as powerful).
As for partial success with the Supernait, it is true that room acoustics might resolve the problem. Even with the Supernait on board, room treatments will likely bring further gains to the system. Nevertheless, some folks may just find a partial solution to be adequate as there might be restrictions with a full solution.
I am totally with you in your above comments as to Naim Amps and I mentioned this sometime ago in a telephone conversation directly with ATC, who dismissed the suggestion that although Naim amps tend to have slightly lower quoted power out puts they are still high powered amps due to other factors. They took the other view if the Naim Amp for eg is 80watt and another Amp is eg 120watt, no matter how that Naim amp 80watt performs the other Amp has 'more power' and will be more suitable to control with some of their model speakers. It seems to me from that conversation people at ATC have a some what 'Engineers' view on audio and any suggestion that some ATC speakers seem to require burn in time was instantly repudiated by them. Despite their certain stance on matters of Audio science I respect them for their products, the way they are built, their belief in their technology and the way their products still attract music lovers and professionals despite the constant competition from other audio brands.
The problem of taking a view based solely on rated power output is that you are only considering a 1 dimensional scalar analysis of a three dimensional property. The RMS power output at a given distortion level is truly valid only when applied to 1kHz sine wave test tones into purely resistive loads (in all other conditions it's merely a very rough 'ball park' estimate of performance).
To properly understand an amplifiers output properties require analysis in all three dimensions of voltage, current and time.
Just a brief notice. I have to put Supernait in a box and return it due to a demo with another client my dealer have at the end of the week.
I am a ritual person so I did a small farewell.
- opened a beer and roled a cigarete
- listend to the Morphine song Buena on the lp on SN
- listend to The National song Bludbuzz Ohio sn SN
- disconnect SN and listened to both songs on Naim 5Si.
What a difference. 5Si feels to weak with SCM. SN drives them well.
Now there is a possibilty that SN will go with another person and I would still like to hear XS 2 before I make my deceison.
Strange days have found me 
Hi all.
What do you thing would be a reasonable price for ex demo Supernait 1 (2011)? And what for one year old used Nait 5si?
£1300 for the SN1 IMHO
£1,100 and £650.
Sun King posted:Hi all.
What do you thing would be a reasonable price for ex demo Supernait 1 (2011)? And what for one year old used Nait 5si?
so you give up nait xs try? just curious as i followed this topic...
To Sun King,
I started off with the Nait 5i used. And moved to the XS, SN1 with hicapDR and finally the SN2 with hicapDR. I have no more desire to upgrade.
If you want the very best amp for your ATC, I suggest you get the supernait 2. End your search for the amp, and just simply enjoy music instead.
Pierre, not yet. Hopefuly I will get XS 2 on monday.
Kmchow, I would do that, but I guess you know whithout my explanation where the problem is.
One thing I will say, despite what anyone says, ATC consumer speakers, as with most speakers, absolutely do take time to run or settle down .. every pair I have owned does.. it's quite obvious over the first 100 hours or so that they open out and then subtle.. I have owned half a dozen pairs of ATCover the years now and have my 'burn in' process quite procedualused...
it might be the term 'burn in' ATC object to.. to me it's most like mechanically loosening up... not dissimilar to a car... I guess BMW might object to their new cars needing to be 'burnt in' by their customers.... but the 'feel' of my car changes over the first 3000 miles or so. Funnily enough even my BMW audio speakers take time to open up from new.. and again just like ATC I am very familiar with new BMWs....
Another thing, I thing we trip up with the terms on audio amps and power... amps are often quoted with a sine wave RMS power into a fixed impedance load... in the real world this is not that helpful... the peak power is 1.41 x the RMS power for a sine wave, but who listens to a sine tone?... for real music and audio content.. the ratio of the peak to RMS value of music audio will possibly be a ratio of 6, 7 or significantly more for the peak power for very brief amounts of time .... it is this that is essential to 'control' a speaker with music .... lesser amps will run out of head room quickly ... more conservative or perhaps 'quality' amps will have plenty in reserve for the peaks but not necessarily for a continuous sine wave ... and so will sound like they better drive the speakers with real music
Simon
Simon,
I'd like to add another three factors in the performance of power amps in the real world.
Current clipping: The maximum current that the output stage can deliver, and this interacts with the phase angle of the load as the imaginary current component through the speakers also has to be delivered by the amps output stage, as well as the real current component.
Current rise time: How quickly the output current can increase with reducing load impedance - this again is important as the phase angle of the load can interact with the varying voltage of the signal to increase the current faster than the equivalent voltage rise.
The relationship between forward open loop gain / frequency response and the closed loop frequency response. This can affect the transient performance of an amp. In the worst case where the open loop gain x the slew rate demand exceeds the slew rate of the output stage by too great a margin, the driver stage can be driven into current saturation. It takes bipolar transistors a short time to recover after this (an condition known as driver latch-up), and this causes a particularly unpleasant form of non-linear transient distortion.
Hi Simon, OT MODE on, if you mind.
Do you usually tighten the speakers' bolts?
MODE off
I assume you mean on the front of the drivers... no I don't, but after several years with my first ever SCM12s I did notice for some reason one bolt was not as tight as the others and I can't remember why I checked... ... anyway perhaps my curiosity might get the better of me and check my current ATCs at some point... but rather inclined not to tamper with them really as they are sounding pretty good to me...
yes those ones.
Somebody advised me to check but I always forget
Back to the subject of Naim power amps,and difficult loads...I used to own Dynaudio C1 MK 11's,which I was using in home theatre,driven by a 350/channel watt Cary audio power amp.At the time I had a supernait 2 in a separate room for 2 channel only.I changed speakers in home theatre to Dynaudio XD 600's,so decided to try the C1's in 2 channel,running off the SN 2.It struggled to drive the C1's properly,like the Cary amp could do,when I tried to turn it up loud,it simply ran out of steam,the woofer sounded sloppy,and incoherent.I sold the C1's at that point.A year or so later,I upgraded the SN2 to my current N272/250 Dr combo,and my dealer let me borrow his old pair of C1's to try...magnificent is all I will say,the 250 DR controlled the C1's with ease,and I wish I would of kept mine,and upgraded the amp.The point is,although SunKing is seeing the benefit of the SN 1 over the 5i,eventually going to a 250DR or 300,would take things much further with those great little speakers.I can't remember who it is,but I think there is a member here with the same speakers running a 250 DR,maybe they could chime in.