Synology + NDS / NAS disappears from app

It looks like you have tried most things that I would normally go for,  it does seem strange it was working OK & now has started to mess around.     That hints at a possibility the problem is in the wireless hub.   The Naim app should not be showing anything outside the Naim system, that to is strange as it was OK & has now changed,   I would look at how its connected to the Naim & how you have the app 'Settings>Input Settings' arranged.  

I would try a few things:    when you say 'static' IP address do you mean you have fixed (reserved) the IP address inside the hub DHCP regime,  or have you set fixed IP addresses outside DHCP (DHCP is off)    I advise to turn DHCP on for all devices,  thats what its designed for,  Static & fixed IP addresses are best left for very large installs & IT professionals.  Don't forget to run a systematic sequenced power cycle on the whole system afterwards.  

The SSDP intervals can be misleading,  there is a strange algorithm going on & some setting number can result in no or few broadcasts.  I have mine at 60 & that does not give me any problems.

One thing - you wrote that Sonos is connected to the switch AND to your NDS. How is the second connection done?

'No Results' message may imply that the Naim app does not actually see your NAS on the network any longer. Not sure if changing from  static to DHCP would help, but running DHCP has never let me down.

What was the last thing you changed in the system?

Have you disabled 'IGMP Snooping' in the Wireless Access Point?

Have you re-scanned the media library recently?

Don't worry about the long post:  It's much better for you to give us more info about your system that for us to have to drag it out of you over time, question by question! - you did the right thing!  

Can you see everything as normal by using the front panel on the NDS or does it present the same behavior?

Wow - thank you all so much for your quick responses.

[@mention:1566878603907884]: "do you mean you have fixed (reserved) the IP address inside the hub DHCP regime,  or have you set fixed IP addresses outside DHCP (DHCP is off)" // Before I started tinkering with my router settings, the NDS was listed as a "static" IP address. My NAS showed twice in the client list; same IP address but different MAC addresses. One of these was "Static" and the other was "DHCP". I over-rode the "DHCP" one to be a manual IP. As you have suggested, I have just deleted the manual setting, and now everything shows up as DHCP (except for the duplicate NAS one, with static). Interestingly, these came up automatically named as Sonos devices (SonosZB?). I will do the power down and up cycle as you have outlined in other posts.

[@mention:44366773372132405]: The router is connected to a Sonos Boost via an ethernet cable (to ensure that my Play 1's around the house don't sit on the general wifi network). The Boost is connected (via an ethernet cable) to a Sonos Connect, which is connected to the NDS via coax.

[@mention:36201736971392588]: The last thing I changed was to reconnect some ethernet cables; router to Apple TV and some (attempted) re-laying of the wire spaghetti; but i did not unplug/re-connect any of the main boxes. IGMP Snooping shows as disabled. What do you mean by "re-scan" the media library? Other things i have tried (to fix this) is to try Minimserver instead of the Synology one. I've tried disabling all other applications except for Media Server / Minimserver. I've disabled firewalls...

[@mention:1566878603952804]: This is a pretty critical item (i think) that got left out in my original post - YES! I can see my NAS on the NDS using the remote control/front panel. I can browse and play stuff too. The sonos stuff also shows up, but the important thing is that i can see my folders...

I think the easiest solution would be to start from a 'known state' and to rebuild your network based on DHCP. 

I do realise this may sound counterintuitive, but searching for a culprit may actually take longer. 

The basic streaming network infrastructure would follow this diagram (pic courtesy of Mike--B). 

Once the newly rebuilt network is stable, start adding components - connecting them all to a switch. 

I would forgoe the Sonos-NDS connection for now. After all NDS should handle all of the duties much better. 

Good luck. 

Adam

Chickabaddyshortshanks posted:

 Before I started tinkering with my router settings, the NDS was listed as a "static" IP address. My NAS showed twice in the client list; same IP address but different MAC addresses. One of these was "Static" and the other was "DHCP". I over-rode the "DHCP" one to be a manual IP. As you have suggested, I have just deleted the manual setting, and now everything shows up as DHCP (except for the duplicate NAS one, with static). 

Lots of clues here;  NDS listed as static IP,  factory default is DHCP.  NAS with two MAC addresses !!! thats a new one on me,  I think you mean two IP addresses,  "static" & "DHCP".  This has all the signs of the wireless hub modem being confused with incorrect inputs & trying to associate two IP's to the same MAC.   I really would change everything to DHCP,  after this everything will need a reboot,  then after the first reboot,  power it all off again & leave the wireless hub off for at least 10 minutes before restarting it first ,  then after the hub has completed its start sequence,  then reboot each other device, one at a time, afterwards.

Chickabaddyshortshanks posted:

[@mention:1566878603952804]: This is a pretty critical item (i think) that got left out in my original post - YES! I can see my NAS on the NDS using the remote control/front panel. I can browse and play stuff too. The sonos stuff also shows up, but the important thing is that i can see my folders...

Let me explain why I asked the question - and to add my own experiences just in case anyone from Naim reads this.

A while ago I reported through a post here that the front display on my NDX has failed. It is somewhat over two years old and it is unreasonable for it to have failed based on the very light use that it has had in that time. However, my NDX has worked perfectly from new only needing two restarts since I have had it. It has always found both servers that I run on my Synology NAS. Most things in my network(s) have assigned IP addresses because the setup is identical across both of my locations so that devices that I take between the two see exactly the same shares.

As a result of my display issue I bought a Samsung Android tablet and installed the Naim app. When this works it is quite a nice application. Sadly it is a piece of junk most of the time. It crashes at least three times each week. It simply doesn't see the NAS. It doesn't see the servers on the network except for the two Windows services if the main PC is switched on. It needs restarting every time that it is used. Often multiple times. Randomly it will then work.

There is nothing wrong with my network(s). Everything else works. It is just the Naim app. Other apps and devices see the NAS flawlessly.

Bananahead posted:

Chickabaddyshortshanks posted:

[@mention:1566878603952804]: This is a pretty critical item (i think) that got left out in my original post - YES! I can see my NAS on the NDS using the remote control/front panel. I can browse and play stuff too. The sonos stuff also shows up, but the important thing is that i can see my folders...

Let me explain why I asked the question - and to add my own experiences just in case anyone from Naim reads this.

A while ago I reported through a post here that the front display on my NDX has failed. It is somewhat over two years old and it is unreasonable for it to have failed based on the very light use that it has had in that time. However, my NDX has worked perfectly from new only needing two restarts since I have had it. It has always found both servers that I run on my Synology NAS. Most things in my network(s) have assigned IP addresses because the setup is identical across both of my locations so that devices that I take between the two see exactly the same shares.

As a result of my display issue I bought a Samsung Android tablet and installed the Naim app. When this works it is quite a nice application. Sadly it is a piece of junk most of the time. It crashes at least three times each week. It simply doesn't see the NAS. It doesn't see the servers on the network except for the two Windows services if the main PC is switched on. It needs restarting every time that it is used. Often multiple times. Randomly it will then work.

There is nothing wrong with my network(s). Everything else works. It is just the Naim app. Other apps and devices see the NAS flawlessly.

I had this problem until I sorted out the rules in my WAP (Wireless Access Point) - it was messing about with the broadcast discovery messages.  In my case disabling IGMP snooping in the router configuration fixed the problem.

That the NDS is reliable from the front panel shows that it and the wired network are working correctly (including the discovery protocols).  That the tablet works correctly indicate that the WiFi connection (and the protocols used to browse the internet) are working correctly.  The protocols used for apps on the tablet to find DLNA devices appear to be being blocked intermittently (almost certainly by the rules in the WAP).  (Note that Sonos doesn't use DLNA and won't be affected if the WAP interferes with DLNA discovery.)

Look to your wireless router configuration, that's the most likely source of the problem.

Huge posted:

Bananahead posted:

Chickabaddyshortshanks posted:

[@mention:1566878603952804]: This is a pretty critical item (i think) that got left out in my original post - YES! I can see my NAS on the NDS using the remote control/front panel. I can browse and play stuff too. The sonos stuff also shows up, but the important thing is that i can see my folders...

Let me explain why I asked the question - and to add my own experiences just in case anyone from Naim reads this.

A while ago I reported through a post here that the front display on my NDX has failed. It is somewhat over two years old and it is unreasonable for it to have failed based on the very light use that it has had in that time. However, my NDX has worked perfectly from new only needing two restarts since I have had it. It has always found both servers that I run on my Synology NAS. Most things in my network(s) have assigned IP addresses because the setup is identical across both of my locations so that devices that I take between the two see exactly the same shares.

As a result of my display issue I bought a Samsung Android tablet and installed the Naim app. When this works it is quite a nice application. Sadly it is a piece of junk most of the time. It crashes at least three times each week. It simply doesn't see the NAS. It doesn't see the servers on the network except for the two Windows services if the main PC is switched on. It needs restarting every time that it is used. Often multiple times. Randomly it will then work.

There is nothing wrong with my network(s). Everything else works. It is just the Naim app. Other apps and devices see the NAS flawlessly.

I had this problem until I sorted out the rules in my WAP (Wireless Access Point) - it was messing about with the broadcast discovery messages.  In my case disabling IGMP snooping in the router configuration fixed the problem.

That the NDS is reliable from the front panel shows that it and the wired network are working correctly (including the discovery protocols).  That the tablet works correctly indicate that the WiFi connection (and the protocols used to browse the internet) are working correctly.  The protocols used for apps on the tablet to find DLNA devices appear to be being blocked intermittently (almost certainly by the rules in the WAP).  (Note that Sonos doesn't use DLNA and won't be affected if the WAP interferes with DLNA discovery.)

Look to your wireless router configuration, that's the most likely source of the problem.

I don't doubt that there may be modifications possible that will allow the Naim app to behave better.

What I am saying is that because the Naim app is the only one that has this issue that THE NAIM APP IS FAULTY.

It is unreasonable that any Naim user has to make any modifications to their network only for the Naim app. 

After unplugging the Ethernet cables for the tidy up, did you reboot the network components or just plug the cables back in.  If it was the latter then after disturbing the network you may want to do a full restart as Mike-B suggests.  It won't do any harm and may make it easier for the wireless part of the network to connect to the wired part via the WAP.

Bananahead posted:

I don't doubt that there may be modifications possible that will allow the Naim app to behave better.

What I am saying is that because the Naim app is the only one that has this issue that THE NAIM APP IS FAULTY.

It is unreasonable that any Naim user has to make any modifications to their network only for the Naim app. 

"What I am saying is that because the Naim app is the only one that has this issue that THE NAIM APP IS FAULTY."

Sorry, that logic is flawed.  Unless, on your system, you've actually tested the protocols that the Naim app uses, then it could be your wireless router.  That was the problem in my case.  The router was interfering with the protocols that the Naim app uses.

As the Naim app uses standard DLNA protocols, then the fault lies in the routers that don't work with these standards.

No, my logic is not flawed. 

If I buy a set of commercial products and they all work faultlessly except for one then it is that product that is faulty.

If the Naim app uses standard DLNA protocols but fails to see all of the music servers on my network that all other software manages to see, then are you suggesting that all other software doesn't use standard protocols? 

Sonos for instance doesn't use standard protocols, so the WAPs don't know for what what the messages are used, so they don't have rules to 'optimise' (i.e. sometimes block) these messages.

To use a paradigm:

You buy an expensive car, and deep in the maintenance manual it tells you that the gearbox oil is SAE 80 EP.  So you go to a local shop and buy some SAE 80 Gear oil.  20,000 miles later the gearbox breaks.  Is it the car manufacturer's fault for not designing the gearbox to work with just any old gear oil on the market, or the oil manufacturer's fault for not making sure their oil is suitable for every single type of car on the market?

Bananahead posted:

No, my logic is not flawed. 

If I buy a set of commercial products and they all work faultlessly except for one then it is that product that is faulty.

If the Naim app uses standard DLNA protocols but fails to see all of the music servers on my network that all other software manages to see, then are you suggesting that all other software doesn't use standard protocols? 

Perhaps ... heres an analogy though...

Years ago, web sites often appeared different on Internet Explorer compared with Netscape.  Some web pages with worked perfectly on Internet Explorer failed to work on Netscape.  Both used the same "standard".

The problem was though that Netscape was actually sticking to the standard and checking the code complied with standards; while Internet Explorer was ignoring many thing.  That meant badly written code would display properly.

So which was wrong... Netscape because it wouldn't display a page that Internet Explorer did; or Internet Explorer for failing to ensure compliance?

Over to you Huge ............... But please don't overlook that the OP has said his wireless hub has two IP addresses listed for the NDS MAC address,  that has to be sorted (I advised to go back to all DHCP) & I expect normal service will be resumed

Bananahead posted:

...

If I buy a set of commercial products and they all work faultlessly except for one then it is that product that is faulty.

... 

Even if you have no idea what caused the fault?

Even if you were to buy a set of products from an American manufacturer where all but one were dual voltage, and the one that was single voltage one was American.
Do you not consider that it might have been your fault for not checking before you bought the wrong one, or before plugging it in without an auto-transformer?

Huge posted:

Bananahead posted:

I don't doubt that there may be modifications possible that will allow the Naim app to behave better.

What I am saying is that because the Naim app is the only one that has this issue that THE NAIM APP IS FAULTY.

It is unreasonable that any Naim user has to make any modifications to their network only for the Naim app. 

"What I am saying is that because the Naim app is the only one that has this issue that THE NAIM APP IS FAULTY."

Sorry, that logic is flawed.  Unless, on your system, you've actually tested the protocols that the Naim app uses, then it could be your wireless router.  That was the problem in my case.  The router was interfering with the protocols that the Naim app uses.

As the Naim app uses standard DLNA protocols, then the fault lies in the routers that don't work with these standards.

I second Huge's statement - the logic is flawed. I have a rather extensive network at home, with multiple devices and Naim app is a very stable one - even the Beta versions work well

Mike-B posted:

Over to you Huge ............... But please don't overlook that the OP has said his wireless hub has two IP addresses listed for the NDS MAC address,  that has to be sorted (I advised to go back to all DHCP) & I expect normal service will be resumed

Thanks Mike, give me the easy ones won't you!  

@Chickabaddyshortshanks, you have followed Mike's advice, haven't you?  It's a basic point and very sensible advice: Until you fix that your network will be in all kinds of chaos.

Mike-B posted:

Over to you Huge ............... But please don't overlook that the OP has said his wireless hub has two IP addresses listed for the NDS MAC address,  that has to be sorted (I advised to go back to all DHCP) & I expect normal service will be resumed

There really should be no need to give things static IP addresses, usually fixing an IP address is fixing a symptom rather than a problem.  If you do want devices to have a fixed IP, it's better to use the management of the DHCP server (the router typically) to always give the same IP address when asked rather than telling the client device to have a static IP address.

Funnily enough I do use some static IP's but that's because the DNS in the router is sometimes too slow to respond (I know I should get a better router!).  However I have limited the range of the DHCP server and allocate static IPs outside this range.

To anyone reading this...

If you don't already understand everything I wrote above and already have a good idea how to go about doing it - then don't use static IPs, just use DHCP.

it's almost victim blaming.

The Naim app doesn't work properly out of the box because you haven't diagnosed why it's not working properly.

Please can someone point us to the official Naim  fault diagnosis guide for their app.

That's not what I said (and you know it)...

The Naim app doesn't work properly out of the box because you haven't diagnosed why your network is not working properly.

Naim are an audio company not a network installation company - it's for you to make your network work with the required standard protocols.

(Actually Naim do require that those of their dealers who sell their network audio products have at least a modicum of understanding of home networks, so maybe you should contact your dealer and get help from them.)

No. It is almost what you said.

Again. Everything else in my network works fine. Everything else sees all of the music servers in my network but the Naim app doesn't. And somehow that is my fault.

Naim are now a network company. They make network products.

What protocols do "Everything else" use?  Do they connect in the same way (including packet timing), using the same protocols, via the same network chain?  If not, your conclusion that the fault must lie in the Naim app is invalid.

And please don't try to put words in my mouth; from a position of logic what I said is substantially different to what you are suggesting I said.

I'll accept Naim being a network company when one of three things occur:
1  their core business becomes network products (i.e. those products become at least 50% of their total revenue)
2  they start selling complete end-to-end network solutions for general networking (not just for audio!)
3  they start doing network installations for general networking (not just for audio!)

To use the car analogy again, Michelin (who make tyres) aren't a car company but without tyres a car won't work properly.

Finally how do you know that "Everything else" in your network works fine, have you tested all the protocols it's suppose to support?  If not there could be other configuration errors that you simply haven't discovered yet.  All you know is that the other parts of your network work fine in as much as you have used them so far.