National Government/Local Government Incompetence ?

Don - it seems like that but much of government of course goes on quietly in the background.    

Incidentally, if I were a Southern commuter I know I'd be extremely frustrated and annoyed and I'm no advocate of the franchising system but I can't help but feel that the TUs are picking a political fight.  

To try and take the big picture, I think it's not so much the competence of government of any political complexion, but rather that, in practice,  it is no longer possible to achieve the reconciliation of the  sheer diversity of opinion, objectives, needs and cultures that now exists across  our small islands that would be necessary for there to be a general feeling that we are competently  governed. 

Or in other words, if government  is pleasing half the people half the time, it's doing well these days. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Is it just me, or does anybody else consider that events this past 10 days or so, have shown our National and Local Governments to be incompetent ?

Nationally, the Conservatives seem unable to form any sort of alliance with the DUP or any other minority group for that matter. They have next to no plans for any sort of programme for the next two years in Parliament and seem to already be fighting a rearguard action with the EU over Citizens' rights following Brexit !!

Locally, both Chelsea & Kensington and Camden LAs seem grossly incompetent dealing with a dreadful fire and its aftermath in one LA whilst the other has taken emergency action to avoid a life-threatening disaster, only to put c.2,500 people homeless on the streets of Camden ?

And Southern Trains isn't much better as an example of private enterprise.......................

Hopefully, it's just me being neurotic !

Don, I was only thinking exactly the same this morning after catching up on the latest news it's very fortunate after recent events over the past few months that all the emergency services have been truly outstanding and not acted at this level of incompetence.

The fire fighters that attended where obviously brave and heroic, they saved a lot of lives. But that’s not to say the fire service is run efficiently.

I listened to the coverage on five live from about 5 am, from what I can remember there was a resident who claimed the firemen couldn’t get in the building, he gave them his keys so they could. There where bollards preventing the engine getting close to the external fire, it took along time to actually put some water on the outside of the building.

If the above is true, the question is, when did the fire service last survey the building with respect to effectively fighting a fire.

I’m not sure the council can be blamed for their inaction immediately after the fire. They didn’t have a plan of action, but that’s not surprising, who thought a tower block would go up in flames the way it did. Even if they had a plan, did they have the people to implement the plan?   

The more I think if it, and as events unfold, I do wonder if it is now time for some form of national government.  In some ways the polarisation of the main parties is refreshing after the blandness  of the Blair/Brown/Cameron/Clegg years, but I wonder if adversarial party politics is fit for purpose in resolving the multiple challenges now facing us.

Plus One.

At present the country is not run on the basis of what is best for the country but what will get or maintain a political party in power. The whole brexit fiasco is down to Cameron promising a referendum in the hope a significant number of conservative voters wouldn’t jump ship and vote UKIP.

With regards to the Brexit vote, I’m absolutely amazed people actually want give them more power.

fatcat posted:

The fire fighters that attended where obviously brave and heroic, they saved a lot of lives. But that’s not to say the fire service is run efficiently.

I listened to the coverage on five live from about 5 am, from what I can remember there was a resident who claimed the firemen couldn’t get in the building, he gave them his keys so they could. There where bollards preventing the engine getting close to the external fire, it took along time to actually put some water on the outside of the building.

If the above is true, the question is, when did the fire service last survey the building with respect to effectively fighting a fire.

 

The responsibility for fire safety in tower blocks and purpose-built flats is usually divided  between the residents  and the landlord or managing  agent.

A Fire Risk Assessment should have should be carried out within the last 12 months and any recommendations acted on.

It could be like this for a long time. No real structure or anything that the average joe can relate to in a way that they feel that they are being represented.  Most of these politicians only make sense to themselves anyway. They can all be eaten by their own lack of popularity. We will all still keep on keeping on.

Would be interesting to witness TM have a nervous breakdown on live TV.

Brits are too sophisticated to take to the streets with pitchforks, instead we have voted for the shit, and we have voted for the fan.   Just sit back and witness the show.

brilliant

So easy to carp from the sidelines, rather harder to make changes for the better.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Don - it seems like that but much of government of course goes on quietly in the background.    

Incidentally, if I were a Southern commuter I know I'd be extremely frustrated and annoyed and I'm no advocate of the franchising system but I can't help but feel that the TUs are picking a political fight.  

Hi Strat,

Yes, i'm sure that much government, both national and local, goes on quietly in the background and is very effective. Not everybody will agree on how effective such government is, nor will we all agree with their spending priorities for which we pay taxes, but that's another story ! Demonocracy rules !!

I'm not totally convinced that the railway TU's are picking a political  fight with the Train Operating Companies (TOCs), but it is possible. I do think that the TOCs could be more honest with their push towards Driver Only Operation (DOO) and make it clear whether they intend to keep the second man on the train (in perpetuity) in some sort of safety role, at his original salary etc and whether the absence of such second person would therefore necessitate the cancellation of the associated train.

Norton posted:

To try and take the big picture, I think it's not so much the competence of government of any political complexion, but rather that, in practice,  it is no longer possible to achieve the reconciliation of the  sheer diversity of opinion, objectives, needs and cultures that now exists across  our small islands that would be necessary for there to be a general feeling that we are competently  governed. 

Or in other words, if government  is pleasing half the people half the time, it's doing well these days. 

I rather suspect that if government is pleasing some  of the people some  of the time it's doing rather well !

And I agree that none of the major parties has any monopoly on incompetence...............

Don Atkinson posted:

Locally, both Chelsea & Kensington and Camden LAs seem grossly incompetent dealing with a dreadful fire and its aftermath in one LA whilst the other has taken emergency action to avoid a life-threatening disaster, only to put c.2,500 people homeless on the streets of Camden ?

And Southern Trains isn't much better as an example of private enterprise.......................

Hopefully, it's just me being neurotic !

So in the light of the tragedy at Grenfell Tower,what would you do if you were leader of Camden Council and had been told that four blocks of flats were at similar risk?

Also where did you get the information that there were c2500 people homeless on the streets? From what I've read the Council is doing its best to accommodate those evacuated in hotels and other temporary accommodation.

Pcd posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Is it just me, or does anybody else consider that events this past 10 days or so, have shown our National and Local Governments to be incompetent ?

Nationally, the Conservatives seem unable to form any sort of alliance with the DUP or any other minority group for that matter. They have next to no plans for any sort of programme for the next two years in Parliament and seem to already be fighting a rearguard action with the EU over Citizens' rights following Brexit !!

Locally, both Chelsea & Kensington and Camden LAs seem grossly incompetent dealing with a dreadful fire and its aftermath in one LA whilst the other has taken emergency action to avoid a life-threatening disaster, only to put c.2,500 people homeless on the streets of Camden ?

And Southern Trains isn't much better as an example of private enterprise.......................

Hopefully, it's just me being neurotic !

Don, I was only thinking exactly the same this morning after catching up on the latest news it's very fortunate after recent events over the past few months that all the emergency services have been truly outstanding and not acted at this level of incompetence.

Yes, it does seem as if our emergency services are better prepared for dealing with major events. I'm sure they have pre-prepared plans for much of their work, but they do also seem better able to respond meaningfully to totally unforeseeable events. They appear to be more adept and more flexible than many government organisations.

fatcat posted:

I’m not sure the council can be blamed for their inaction immediately after the fire. They didn’t have a plan of action, but that’s not surprising, who thought a tower block would go up in flames the way it did. Even if they had a plan, did they have the people to implement the plan?   

Well, I think you have sort of hit the spot in that "they (probably) didn't have a plan of action". But most organisations don't have a pre-prepared plan for every possible event, especially unforeseen events such as the London tower block fire.

But the LA and Central government didn't seem to respond in any meaningful way for two or three days. Such organisations should be able to respond much, much more quickly and far, far more effectively. Events don't wait for the Safety-Committee to convene on Monday to prepare a plan of action to prepare a bespoke plan, to present to the CEO by the end of the month !

Jonn posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Locally, both Chelsea & Kensington and Camden LAs seem grossly incompetent dealing with a dreadful fire and its aftermath in one LA whilst the other has taken emergency action to avoid a life-threatening disaster, only to put c.2,500 people homeless on the streets of Camden ?

And Southern Trains isn't much better as an example of private enterprise.......................

Hopefully, it's just me being neurotic !

So in the light of the tragedy at Grenfell Tower, what would you do if you were leader of Camden Council and had been told that four blocks of flats were at similar risk?

• Put the fire Service in place on site, to safeguard the buildings and deal with any immediate fire (they apparently assessed the imminent risk and need for immediate action)
• Identified safe places of refuge for the tenants
• Organised transport
• Organised  direct information and assistance to be given personally to each tenant to leave and their arrangements for transport and temporary accommodation, finance etc
• Organised the long term plan for tenants and the buildings.

 

Also where did you get the information that there were c2500 people homeless on the streets? From what I've read the Council is doing its best to accommodate those evacuated in hotels and other temporary accommodation.

BBC News, just before I posted this thread. It first mentioned c.4,000 people, but then revised that figure to c.2,500. It was clear from the news reports there was no provision in place at that time of night for even short-term accommodation, other than the very vulnerable. Possibly one contributory reason  why the BBC reduced their figure from 4,000 to 2,500, ie the very vulnerable were being helped.

It was  the London Fire Brigade's decision that the blocks should be evacuated while urgent fire safety works were undertaken. So presumably if they thought it was safe or practical to put the Fire Service on site until all transport and accommodation was available they would have done so. I doubt that the Council could over rule the decision or indeed would want to.

So the Council were in the unenviable position of having to notify residents and find alternative accommodation  at extremely short notice, which  they seem to have managed as best they could in the circumstances.

Camden Council don't deserve such opprobrium. Focus your ire on the real villains behind the tragedy.

I’m sure the vast majority of the people who lived in Grenfell Tower are perfectly happy with the performance of the council. It only takes a dozen or so people winging to BBC or Sky reporters on site to give the impression everybody’s dissatisfied.

 Plus, the BBC and Sky are on the lookout for people complaining, I doubt they’d broadcast the views of a tenant praising the council. After all that's not news.

Pcd posted:

fatcat posted:

The fire fighters that attended where obviously brave and heroic, they saved a lot of lives. But that’s not to say the fire service is run efficiently.

I listened to the coverage on five live from about 5 am, from what I can remember there was a resident who claimed the firemen couldn’t get in the building, he gave them his keys so they could. There where bollards preventing the engine getting close to the external fire, it took along time to actually put some water on the outside of the building.

If the above is true, the question is, when did the fire service last survey the building with respect to effectively fighting a fire.

 

The responsibility for fire safety in tower blocks and purpose-built flats is usually divided  between the residents  and the landlord or managing  agent.

A Fire Risk Assessment should have should be carried out within the last 12 months and any recommendations acted on.

The fire brigade should also have a specific plan of action to combat a fire at every site it could be asked to attend. I don’t know what happens now that everything is computerised, but 20 years ago, the fire brigade would have a folder for each site, containing plans, access information, hazards etc. The fire office running the operation would grab the folder for the building they where going to attend and look at the information one route.

The fact they couldn’t get into the building and there were bollards preventing access all around the building begs the question, when did they last survey the site.

Christopher_M posted:

So easy to carp from the sidelines, rather harder to make changes for the better.

Rather than carping from the sidelines, can I be allowed to perch on the fence? 

Jonn posted:

It was  the London Fire Brigade's decision that the blocks should be evacuated while urgent fire safety works were undertaken. So presumably if they thought it was safe or practical to put the Fire Service on site until all transport and accommodation was available they would have done so. I doubt that the Council could over rule the decision or indeed would want to.

So the Council were in the unenviable position of having to notify residents and find alternative accommodation  at extremely short notice, which  they seem to have managed as best they could in the circumstances.

Camden Council don't deserve such opprobrium. Focus your ire on the real villains behind the tragedy.

 

Well, that's the point. I don't consider they managed the situation at all well. They were disorganised, I have no doubt they made some sort of attempt, which is more than Chelsea & Kensington. But that's not good enough.

 There are two aspects to this tragedy.

          (1) The fire and the choice of cladding.

          (2) The action (or lack thereof) during and after the tragedy.

It will take some time for the inquiry to identify the "villains" behind item (1) - and we might decide it was the Fire Brigade's failure to properly deal with the fridge/freezer fire, or some other, less obvious cause, or more deeply buried official who drafted some fire regulation years ago.

As for item (2), neither LA seems to have been up to the mark.

Don Atkinson posted:

 There are two aspects to this tragedy.

          (1) The fire and the choice of cladding.

          (2) The action (or lack thereof) during and after the tragedy.

You missed a third: the ghettoisation of an underclass.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

 There are two aspects to this tragedy.

          (1) The fire and the choice of cladding.

          (2) The action (or lack thereof) during and after the tragedy.

You missed a third: the ghettoisation of an underclass.

Chris,

I'm sure there are many, many more underlying issues to discontent in our society. And our National Government and our LAs are not up to dealing with them adequately.

To a certain extent, this is the consequence of society's attitudes, reflected in the priorities that LAs apply to their functioning. It might well have been that the LAs in both Camden and Chelsea felt they couldn't be bothered to make adequate provision for those affected by the fire or the Fire Service advice ie those affected were an underclass living in a ghetto. But I didn't detect that attitude in any of the news reports that I saw. I just saw incompetence.

As ever, I don't believe in conspiracy theory, I believe in cock-up theory.