How to kill Naim sales in a perfectly healthy country. A lesson in smart economics.

What is it with hifi dealers? Some are not much better here in the UK. My local Naim dealer refused to allow me to home demo speakers because they had the hump that I bought an item, that they did not even stock, elsewhere. The sales rep told them the deal I did with another dealer. Nice, and quite probably unlawful.

Are UK dealers, or indeed any EU dealer able to ship Naim products direct to Italy? It's supposed to be a free market here in the EU, at least for now anyway.

Are Italian taxes higher?

Are there other costs (even in the north) that might explain the premium?

Hi Max,

 thanks for sharing your thoughts here. I can understand your frustration, simply by looking at the prices.

Bargain hunting has become a problem over here in Germany as well. The usual thing is to book a demo at a dealership to choose a component and to buy from the guy with the lowest price. This is usually someone else and unsurprisingly one from a select group of dealers with many lines in store and strong internet presence. This has led to at least two things: some dealers refuse to carry the same lines as these guys and some distributors have lowered both their own and the dealers margins to avoid huge discounts and to keep the prices closer to those at the respective home markets (e.g. UK for Naim). There are likely many more, but these are the ones I know for sure.

Back to your post: are the other lines (Wilson etc. ) equally expensive, relative to other European countries or is it just Naim?

Nice Thread, I was thinking the same, from an US perspective!

SCDR UK~ $4,230

SCDR US~ $7,695

Why buy it in the USA!

Shipping & electrical conversion Cost does not off set that drastic difference!

4230 x 1.27 = 5372.1 on the up side!!!

Just saying!

Hi Max - Your thread complements the book I am reading just now.

The Dark Heart of Italy
by Tobias Jones
288pp, Faber, £16.99 (UK Price!)

Recommended.

G

I fail to understand the huge difference in price when the Euro & $ so strong against the £, dont believe its all due to tax, here in France its a modest premium. Perhaps wanting to favour other products & line their pockets at the expense of Naims following?

It flows the other way as well -  Sonus faber Olympica III speakers in Italy E7990, same speakers in Uk 10,000 pounds or E11,365. Importer/dealer mark-ups happen all over the planet. Capitalism  will always screw the little guy, even if they are buying expensive toys...

regards,

Giles

well Naim is one of these brands that doesn't need to be sold. Naim is one of the brands that is sought after, fans run after Naim, as their products (most of them anyway) are damn good, musically speaking.

Naim factory is always busy, and frankly can't cope with any further demand anyway.

Bluebeard posted:

It flows the other way as well -  Sonus faber Olympica III speakers in Italy E7990, same speakers in Uk 10,000 pounds or E11,365. Importer/dealer mark-ups happen all over the planet. Capitalism  will always screw the little guy, even if they are buying expensive toys...

regards,

Giles

 

Capitalism provides plenty of choice and there are many great and legendary British speakers that cost a lot less than Sonus Faber. Many people would say that Sonus Faber was great with Franco Serblin, but not the same now.

Let's not forget Focal speakers either, very fine speakers to my ears that give SF a good run for the money, and much better value.

we have a cat that we love very much, so the delicate and very fragile Sonus Fabers are completely out of the question in my household anyway.

 

Why do I write all this? Because I simply have enough of being bull***tted. I go there, I receive lessons on The Laws Of God Market, and the simple thing is that Naim, in Italy, costs between 35 and 40% more than anywhere else I know.

Italy is still full of people who love Naim and can't wait to find the proper bargain, to buy the proper thing; but prices are high. They say that prices are kept high because Italians love to bargain; but if prices were more normal there would be no need to bargain. But, unfortunately, merchants are like politicians, and believe that the only way to manage an Italian is to treat him like if he was 12 years old.

I am sorry for the life of Naim here,

Hi Max, I understand your feelings, personally we need to make some choices in life, one of them (only speaking for myself) was to get to a level of Naim where I am comfortable, 282/HCDR/250DR, and happy to stay there, and enjoy the music.

I was also lucky to find a source that I could live with, as you know I like the musicality of Chord Dacs, so best to find the Naim amp that one likes and is comfortable with, and procure it (capitalism provides a free market for sellers, but also for buyers), and enjoy the music. Getting Dynaudio speakers (could be Kudos, ATC, Proac, Focal too for me) and Chord Dac were the final piece of the puzzle.

Hi-fi will probably never quite sound like live music, but as long as it is enjoyable, that is what matters?

One consideration is to use people power to force a change in how they are sold.

my understanding is that Naim dealers are not allowed to sell outside their region/area.

surely it should be acceptable to research online to find your item at best price, so max can check price to buy in uk, and then shipping to his area. This might press the dealers to allow cross region sales, and ought to be possible anyway with the open market approach

Max, I was the other week comparing NAIM prices in my country (Greece) with the Signals (UK) catalogue. 23% up across the whole NAIM product range (using the current GBP to EUR exchange rate). Greece has 24% VAT, the UK price catalogue includes 20% VAT so the VAT  % differential is not sufficient to justify the price differential. But then of course one would have to factor in higher transportation costs and the fact that the overall scale of the business is too small here - both would to some extent justify the higher prices here vs the UK. But then out of curiosity I also checked the price catalogue of an Italian hi-fi store and realized that the Italian prices are much higher compared to Greece - in that case the higher transportation costs and scale arguments would not apply. Bottomline: Max has a point!

analogmusic posted:

well Naim is one of these brands that doesn't need to be sold. Naim is one of the brands that is sought after, fans run after Naim

Not my view sitting in the US where Naim's presence in Seattle hi-fi shops has vastly diminished during the five years I've been aware of the brand.

analogmusic posted:

Naim factory is always busy, and frankly can't cope with any further demand anyway.

That's one perspective. Another is that Naim are over their heads with the new Uniti range release (as it was announced) and if it has not already happened, there will be some intercedence by the larger ownership at some management level. The former Naim can live on its reputation for so long to a loyalist market, but at some point they'll have to deliver to future buyers. I think brands like Linn and Devialet were years ahead of Naim in readying for future demands.

As well as exchange rates there is of course the cost of shipping, which can be significant with large speakers and heavy amps, though nowhere near enough to explain the difference, however with shipping there is also the cost of insurance, which for goods like this can be far more than the shipping cost. I don't know if people shipping in larger bulk get it cheaper -but whilst that might be particularly true for anything shipped by sea, e.g UK to America, I wouldn't expect the insurance UK to Italy to be significantly different from UK to Austria. 

I wonder if Naim have any standards with which overseas dealers must comply to be supplied with their products? However, even if they do, I suspect it is unlikely to include price, as in EU at least that is probably illegal.

Supply and demand and pricing is always a difficult balance - e.g sell more of the same item cheaper or fewer more expensive, for the same profit margin - Something where clearly Naim will have its own view, which dictates wholesale prices and recommended retail prices, however dealers are entitled to their own view as well. The difference is that a manufacturer can easily monitor in their own country, and if they choose they can find ways of encouraging suppliers to conform. (I believe it is illegal in UK for the manufacturer to to set a fixed price, yet it is surprising how many suppliers sell at the RRP - across a range of brands and goods -but the ability to influence presumably diminishes with remote distributors and dealers.)

It is sad to learn of  people having to pay significantly higher prices in some locations than some of us do where we live, to get the same sound quality we enjoy (that is regardless of the 'level' soneone may be in system hierarchy) obviously some differences are inevitable, but some of those quoted seem horrendous, in fact, at those price differentials it may be worth taking a trip to the UK, auditioning as best you can, accepting the limitations associated with not hearing at home, then arranging personal export shipping home. While at it, have a holiday! Ditto anyone from UK wanting, say, a Stradivarius (loudspeaker not violin!).

I think brands like Linn and Devialet were years ahead of Naim in readying for future demands.

 

Maybe, but they don't have that "naim sound" 

Halloween Man posted:

...

Are UK dealers, or indeed any EU dealer able to ship Naim products direct to Italy? It's supposed to be a free market here in the EU, at least for now anyway.

Cbr600 posted:

...

my understanding is that Naim dealers are not allowed to sell outside their region/area.

...

It may be part of the contract Naim has with dealers and international distributors, however this can be circumvented.

There are import/export companies who will, for a commission, purchase anything in any country and transport it to another country provided that is legal (at all steps - purchase, transportation and supply in the destination country).  And within the EU there isn't even any question of tax or import duty nor one of mains voltage.

This works to circumvent Naim's contract with it's dealers and international distributors because the purchase in made in the country of origin (the UK in this case) not in the destination country, followed by a private import.

Any attempt to prevent this within the EU would be illegal due to the combination of the EU treaties concerning free movement of goods and labour, tax harmony (paying VAT in the place of origin) and the EU Customs Union (of which UK is a member).  The only exception would be where a destination country has a specific internal excise duty on a class of product (e.g. alcohol and tobacco in the UK).

Huge is spot on within the EU you can purchase an item (subject Huge's point above) anywhere within the EU as an EU citizen , a retailer may decide not to ship or transact over the telephone and require you to trade in person, and collect the goods, that is their choice... but it would be illegal for a retailer to not sell to you on the grounds you did not have a U.K. but instead a valid EU address.

Another interesting thing is that it is not legal for a manufacturer to formally set a retail price.. they can suggest a price and that is the extent of it,  a retailer can sell an item for what they want in reason .. in the limit there are laws on uncompetitive behaviour and selling as loss leaders but these tend to only apply when in a dominant market position. But colluding/agreeing with retailers to only sell at a particular minimum price is absolutely unlawful... the price agreed is between the retailer and the consumer. However a retailer seen actively promoting prices significantly outside the manufacturers suggested price may mean the supplier in the future refuses to deal with the retailer.... therefore agreed pricing much outside of the manufacturers suggested price between retailer and consumer becomes a privately agreed transaction.

Hi Max

I feel your pain.  I guess Naim gear is one of the few purchases where living in Rip-off Britain does not put one at a disadvantage.  More than once I have found myself looking at items on the UK version of the Big River website and, just out of curiosity, clicked on the US version to find the price in dollars was a good deal less than the price in pounds for the same item, in spite of an exchange rate of around 1.3 dollars to the pound.  It is sometimes suggested that local taxes etc. can account for the difference, but our Consumer Association investigated this and still found a difference averaging around 20% even after allowing for taxes.

Today Canon announced their new and long-awaited 6D mk2 full frame camera, which I am potentially interested in.  Price in the US: $1999.  At today's exchange rate that is £1542.  Price in the UK: £1999.

Roger

Come on Max! You need to realize that you live in a beautiful country having brilliant wines, bread, salt, spices, vegatables, and olive oil from 2000 year old trees.

When I buy them in my swampy lowlands I pay double the price - and your country exports the lower quality.

When I want to drink my favorite Soave, I pay 6 times more than in Italy.

Both Ferrari or a Fiat Panda is more expensive in Amsterdam than in Milano.

Any church in Italy has more art than a full non-Italian museum.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Come on Max! You need to realize that you live in a beautiful country having brilliant wines, bread, salt, spices, vegatables, and olive oil from 2000 year old trees.

When I buy them in my swampy lowlands I pay double the price - and your country exports the lower quality.

When I want to drink my favorite Soave, I pay 6 times more than in Italy.

Both Ferrari or a Fiat Panda is more expensive in Amsterdam than in Milano.

Any church in Italy has more art than a full non-Italian museum.

I'm confused, is it not possible, for you to order the finest wines and breads, shipped to your door!

If so, are there any VAT, or Duties involved?

"EU, European Union has delivered more than 60 years of peace, stability, and prosperity in Europe, helped raise our citizens’ living standards, launched a single European currency (the euro), and is {progressively building a single Europe-wide free market for goods}, services, people, and capital."

But to your point, the grapes are harvested and manufactured in France.

Whereas, the vast majority of Canon products are manufactured in Japan.

So I would imagine, Canon's Marketing Engineers would have an input in the pricing of it's products abroad!

So, if I want a Brand new SCDR, like Hugh said, look to pay commissions, but the savings may be worthwhile in some instances.

SCDR~ $4,030 GBP

SCDR~ $7,695 USD

Allante93!

PS. Or The Lovely 2nd Hand Market!

Allante93 posted:

.!

So, if I want a Brand new SCDR, like Hugh said, look to pay commissions, but the savings may be worthwhile in some instances.

SCDR~ $4,030 GBP

SCDR~ $7,695 USD

!

I wonder what will be the effect of President Trump's desire to have a policy encouraging US residents to buy US products...  maybe a doubling of price! 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Allante93 posted:

.!

So, if I want a Brand new SCDR, like Hugh said, look to pay commissions, but the savings may be worthwhile in some instances.

SCDR~ $4,030 GBP

SCDR~ $7,695 USD

!

I wonder what will be the effect of President Trump's desire to have a policy encouraging US residents to buy US products...  maybe a doubling of price! 

That would depend on how this "encouragement" was implemented. If US import duties were to be increased then prices would rise. OTOH if demand was to fall naturally and there was an over supply, then prices might fall.

analogmusic posted:

I think brands like Linn and Devialet were years ahead of Naim in readying for future demands.

 

Maybe, but they don't have that "naim sound" 

 

True.

But these days people don't care about that much about sound anymore.

The looks and functionality matter more than how things sound. This trend is continuing for sometime: Millennials & Baby Boomers want to be light weight and disappearing  BM shops mean that they have no way of auditioning or having someone to demonstrate what good sound is.

In addition, MSRP of high end audio became extremely costly. That's no problem for new wealth folks, but out of reach for most debt strapped young Americans. ( college tuition also sky rocketed ) OTOH, there are number of US made entry level gear that are affordable. How good is unknown ( I am not a target market ).

A push for new Uniti range is a good thing. This year's Axpona, my Millennials friend was set to get a *proper* turntable based system but seeing how expensive and how cumbersome it is, they were more attracted to one box Uniti range and abandoned turntable all together. ( entry cost of a system they liked was out of their reach)

Save

Peakman posted:

Today Canon announced their new and long-awaited 6D mk2 full frame camera, which I am potentially interested in.  Price in the US: $1999.  At today's exchange rate that is £1542.  Price in the UK: £1999.

You're forgetting VAT Roger.

Yes $1999 is around £1500.  But you need to add VAT which is £300.  So less than 10% difference which could be legitimately accounted for by retail costs in UK vs USA.  And don't forget the cost of Canon UK providing a EU compliant warranty vs the more limited US consumer legislation.

I can understand US pricing but the EU pricing should be same all over euro zone May be slightly higher than UK consedering exchange rate flactuations and logistics.

What stopping  you to go to uk and get it from there?  

Every company need to have a pricing policy with recomended prices not left to a mercy of the distributor.

In Turkey it is slightyl above UK prices and we have a very good dealer, extreme audio, the one before that was a nightmare...

A distributor can make the brand king ör kill it