How to kill Naim sales in a perfectly healthy country. A lesson in smart economics.

Indeed there's nothing wrong with a dealer selling something for as high a price as he can get -and the customer equally trying to get it for as little as he can. Theses days it is easier than ever to buy from elsewhere-and a savvy dealer will be aware of that, and must weigh up the risk of losing sales if he prices things too high. Where the manufacturer's interest comes in, is not high prices per se, but anything that presents a negative image of the brand, which is more to do with the manner of presentation and the support provided.

Dealers trying to steer buyers to buy what they want to sell rather than what the customer actually wants is quite another matter -and is of course a fundamental of selling, and, yes, that would generally mean selling whatever profits the dealer most - though whilst that often means maximum profit from that sale, some dealers will consider it in the long term, and that is particularly true of the hifi buff who is likely to be on a path with future upgrades the dealer might wish to have a chance of selling. And that, it seems, is what Naim is likely to want out of dealers, partly because it might help maximise future Naim sales, and partly because important parts of the Naim image are support, commitment and longevity.

The risk to the consumer is the unscrupulous dealer who steers you in the path of their profit at your loss, by the use of misleading or even false statements, or distorting a demo, all to persuade you to pick the things he wants to sell. And that can indeed be as simple as saying that itemX isn't in stock and there's currently a supply backlog, but itemY that Is in stock is just as good.

The discussion appears to have gone rather OT.

And there I was thinking that a good dealer's primary concern is to have a viable long term business - and to achieve that by selling things at a fair price, providing good service and thereby having happy and loyal customers. 

Probably time to move to the Padded Cell...

Eloise posted:

Peakman posted:

Today Canon announced their new and long-awaited 6D mk2 full frame camera, which I am potentially interested in.  Price in the US: $1999.  At today's exchange rate that is £1542.  Price in the UK: £1999.

You're forgetting VAT Roger.

Yes $1999 is around £1500.  But you need to add VAT which is £300.  So less than 10% difference which could be legitimately accounted for by retail costs in UK vs USA.  And don't forget the cost of Canon UK providing a EU compliant warranty vs the more limited US consumer legislation.

I'm not, Eloise, really I'm not, hence my reference to the Which? report.  You're right that the costs of retailing in different countries vary which makes it difficult to make fair comparisons between markets and you may disagree with the methodology used by the Consumers' Association to try to address this.  If so, I'd be interested to read your critique and your suggestions for an alternative methodology (but not, I suggest, on this forum.)  Segmented markets always allow for the exercise of third-degree price discrimination which typically transfers consumer surplus to firms.  The question is to what extent this amounts to abuse of market power and this is not easy to assess.

Incidentally I took a look at UK and US warranties for Canon cameras and can see little practical difference between them.

Roger

The Tesla model is interesting. The manufacturer selling direct to the customer and offering direct support. No wholesalers, importers nor dealers at all. If it works fro something big, expensive and complex for a car, why not for other things like HiFi? Personally like to buy many things online, not for the price but as much as for the avoidance of "sales people". For HiFi, the manufacturers could support showrooms, but with the actual transaction being direct with the manufacturer. No wholesalers, nor retailers, just factory-employed staff who are NOT on commission.

In the U.S., retail is vanishing, 3,500 stores expected to close in the next couple of months. The new generation is buying everything online, including high end fashion eye glasses. The curiously named (and well reviewed) American company Schitt Audio sells direct, with international channels. It's a model Naim should look into, actually, I'd be surprised if they weren't already.  

Max_B posted:

GraemeH posted:

Hi Max - Your thread complements the book I am reading just now.

The Dark Heart of Italy
by Tobias Jones
288pp, Faber, £16.99 (UK Price!)

Recommended.

G

I'll read it, although I cannot say that the title is making me drool... But thanks for the hint.

Max

Having lived in Italy for a while in the late 80's I find it resonates. 

Indietro tutta

G

Max_B posted:

Ardbeg10y posted:

Come on Max! You need to realize that you live in a beautiful country having brilliant wines, bread, salt, spices, vegatables, and olive oil from 2000 year old trees.

When I buy them in my swampy lowlands I pay double the price - and your country exports the lower quality.

When I want to drink my favorite Soave, I pay 6 times more than in Italy.

Both Ferrari or a Fiat Panda is more expensive in Amsterdam than in Milano.

Any church in Italy has more art than a full non-Italian museum.

Apart from the doubtful satisfaction of being identified, as an Italian citizen, for the 1000th time with food and Ferraris, your post doesn't contradict mine. Why don't you go to a Ferrari dealer in Amsterdam and ask him why the car is more expensive there than here (I don't know Ferrari's prices, BTW, I am not interested in supercars – for that, you should ask Roberto)? If he has an explanation, I'll be curious to know it. And let's not forget that when we compare costs of transport, import taxes (we have 22% IVA here) and the sort, then we consider the difference in street prices, we have to remember that the importer doesn't buy from Naim at street prices, but at a much lower one.

Anyway, I have always accepted all the points that have been made here, even the unrelated ones: that Naim sells by itself (not true: I've seen people coming to my dealer asking for a given Naim box and being tentatively sold something else, from or not the Naim catalogue: dealers sell what they want to sell, what usually allows the highest margins. An example: each time I have asked for a demo of a Naim product, I had to ask for NAC A5 expressly, and got it with some effort after they had rummaged in drawers for minutes trying to discourage me, because it was out of reach even for the pet shop boys: the owner has placed Nordost on every system and forbids the guys to use otherwise); that it's a privilege to own it, etc. I can understand and accept Naim's policy to rise the prices annually to guarantee a good value to the second hand market; I understand everything. But I can't accept to see that, as I wrote, when the SU was released it costed exactly like the SN, and now it is 30% more. This is importer's politics, and I should be in their head to understand it: well, when my dealer moved his store to the new site, I helped him install all the Naim systems for him (he couldn't get a*sed, and BTW is not able to do it), so I spent a day on the other side of an audio store, seeing and hearing the concepts, the motivations, the reasons for each and minimal placement of any box: and have decided that I will never have a similar experience again. Audio stores, in general, now repel to me. I know what's behind every word they say, and feel that each minute spent in an audio store is a minute wasted.

BTW, Sloop John B: if you're reading this; months ago I posted a long reflection on why, and how, I decided what pieces I'd have and the exacts reasons for each choice. It apparently was such a rational argument that even Nigel gave his approval. I do not even dream of having to justify what I do, but I have stopped buying, swapping, changing, up-, down- or side grading; only, I did it after having bought, paid, listened to, owned, judged, lost money, built experience. Not after having drooled on the forum pages and followed some maître à pensée's indications or the classic need of some forum members to spend your money.

Friendly

M

Max,

As far as i know in countries like Holland and more so Norway or  Finland  ,high end cars  with engine power above a certain amount or displacement, are due to additional taxation. In Italy Italian Vat is 22%, In such countries is probably much higher perhaps. 

BUT, here in Italy we also  have extortionate road taxes (Or more precisely property taxes. Actually you have to pay even if your care is garage hybernated) For example an entry level Porsche 300ps pays 1450 euro every year. This taxation regime introduced in 2011 has actually killed the market of entry level supercars, Porsche 911 and the likes

A Ferrari 488 or Mc Laren 650 is over 6000 euro !  In Germany same cars pay less than 500 euro on road tax ( United Europe is quite an illusion)

Regards

Roberto

Interesting to have a garage tax even for 'hibernation',  What is the situation if I bought a unroadworthy car to restore/rebuild it ???     In UK if a car is not on the road (this means they must be in some form of garage/storage)  no road tax is required  

Re super cars:  as a comparison in UK a McLaren 650S & a Ferrari 488 road tax up to 31 Mar 2017 was £535 (€617)    From 1 April 2017 its £450 (€519)   However since 1 April 2017 when the car is first registered the first year road tax is a lot higher for all cars;  the 650S for e.g. is £2000 (€2306).

Richard Dane posted:

The discussion appears to have gone rather OT.

And there I was thinking that a good dealer's primary concern is to have a viable long term business - and to achieve that by selling things at a fair price, providing good service and thereby having happy and loyal customers. 

Probably time to move to the Padded Cell...

Richard/all,

This thread is a bit like James Burke's 'Connections' TV prog from the late 1970s, where he linked (e.g.) industrial advances in the 1800's to the design/production of things like the Saturn V rocket! Often tenuous, to say the least.

I can only believe, now the discussion has turned to road tax for supercars, the suggestion is that the Italian dealer/distributor can afford one of these based on their pricing structures , as relayed by Max.