272 lacking sparkle

Wow this thread is epic

of course, but if people do tend to keep believing in fairy tales ,let them believe what they want to  

Huge posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Huge posted:

Jon Green of Naim...

Asked where the NAC-N 272 sits in the Naim preamp hierarchy, he explained that
‘the model number should indicate where it’s positioned.....

So better than a 252, and almost as good as a 282?! 

If you don't like the 252 but do like the 282, then possibly so!

(Or maybe he thought it was slightly better than a 282, and a small step on the way to the quality of a 252!  - but I don't think he actually meant that!)

I guess he was assuming that people knew the old olive rankings. So the x2 numbers were pretty much chronological, the 52 was the 5th 2 channel pre, 62 came next etc, and there was no quality judgement inthe numers. Knowing the olives, the hierarchy went 52 > 82 > 72 > 62, so I guess Jon was saying that the 2x2 are in the same order. (And no offence to 72 lovers who prefer it to the 52/82.)

 wow 

Anyway back to the OP's question.... 

analogmusic posted:

272 is not an amplifier, it is a preamp.

and 200 does not lack sparkle.

Something seems wrong in your setup, I would check the polarity connection to the speaker and also check that the ground switch is set on Chassis, if no other NAIM CD player is connected to your 272. Otherwise if there is a NAIM cd player it should be set on floating, this is in the manual for the 272, please read it.

Metal Dome B&W speakers will always sound different to Harbeth.

Have to say though, I do wonder about a company - Harbeth - that says "all amps sound the same".

compare that to Dynaudio, in which they say, "our speakers will always tell the truth", and one can easily hear a change of cable.

It is a bit of a lazy thread, you are asking for a solution, when you have already stated the speakers were changed.

Sometimes the solutions are already there right in front of you, but one chooses to deny the obvious.

Not asking for a solution, just commenting on my findings. I have had the Harbeths for over two years. I have owned the 272

3 days. Before the Harbeths SBLs sat in their place. The little Harbeth has a metal dome tweeter. Placement may need to change as observed by others.

Past experience with naim gear is it either sounds right or somethings wrong somewhere in the system and it can take a time to come out and find the culprit and sometimes useage and time is the answer.

ryder. posted:

Maze, have you tried moving the Harbeth P3s around the room? In my experience with the Super HL5 Plus, speaker placement can greatly affect the way they sound. If you move the speakers closer to each other you will get a punchier and dynamic sound as the overall image gets denser. The treble may gain a little immediacy and extension when the speakers are closer to each other. The speakers will sound airier and more expansive when they are placed further away from each other. However, there will be a reduction in punch and dynamics with the treble sounding slightly duller. If you hadn't tried placing the P3s closer together, it might be worth a try.

Thanks, I will have a move around with the Harbeths, they are fine speakers IMO, beautiful midrange and bass for tiny tot.

How does a reply go from not enough sparkle in the 272 to the 272 is the greatest thing since sliced bread evolve? I have heard the product, and also agree with the OP.

The fact is the 272 is a compromised product to meet a demand for streaming based customers, it doesn't compete sonically with any Naim dedicated pre-amps. The only reason it's so popular is because certain members on this website whose opinions are taken as gospel have hyped it to the heavens.

Klyde posted:

Can anyone define what sparkle actually is, in musical terms?

Something that has clearly defined sharp pointy bits and a cold brightness to it, perhaps.   Sounds that to me could impress initially but would become irritating.   What we all really want is a hot shimmering sizzle.  Like looking at a long road going towards the horizon on a hot bright day.

Eoink posted:

 

Huge posted:

Jon Green of Naim...

Asked where the NAC-N 272 sits in the Naim preamp hierarchy, he explained that
‘the model number should indicate where it’s positioned.....

I guess he was assuming that people knew the old olive rankings. So the x2 numbers were pretty much chronological, the 52 was the 5th 2 channel pre, 62 came next etc, and there was no quality judgement in the numbers.

Knowing the olives, the hierarchy went 52 > 82 > 72 > 62, so I guess Jon was saying that the 2x2 are in the same order. (And no offence to 72 lovers who prefer it to the 52/82.)

Wow, you learn something new every day!

52>82>72>62

Now I'm not trying to this thread moved to the padded cell, but usually, not always, there is a relationship between price $$$$, and quality!

S1>552>252>282>272

Same pattern!

Well, that's Naim's perspective $$$!

Allante93!

Allante93 posted:

 

S1>552>282>252>272 

Just correcting a mistake* in your post 

*IMHO of course 

badlands posted:

How does a reply go from not enough sparkle in the 272 to the 272 is the greatest thing since sliced bread evolve? I have heard the product, and also agree with the OP.

The fact is the 272 is a compromised product to meet a demand for streaming based customers, it doesn't compete sonically with any Naim dedicated pre-amps. The only reason it's so popular is because certain members on this website whose opinions are taken as gospel have hyped it to the heavens.

 

Our opinions differ, I'm afraid. Having done listening comparisons between 272, 555 & 250DR and various combinations of NDS, NDX, ND5XS, 252, 282, 202, 250DR & 300DR, whilst not for one moment claiming the former equals, or exceeds, the performance of a 6 box setup, I believe it gets very close, offers a brilliant sound and exceptional value for money. I'm certainly not one of the band of contributors to whom you're referring, just an ordinary music fan who enjoys hearing that music played well. I don't, for the life of me, get all this angst ridden competitiveness that seems to exist between certain contributors. If anyone truly believes his or her QB sounds better than someone else's Statement, what harm are they doing? No one is ever going to base a buying decision on that, so why have an online row about it?

Tim

badlands posted:

How does a reply go from not enough sparkle in the 272 to the 272 is the greatest thing since sliced bread evolve? I have heard the product, and also agree with the OP.

The fact is the 272 is a compromised product to meet a demand for streaming based customers, it doesn't compete sonically with any Naim dedicated pre-amps. The only reason it's so popular is because certain members on this website whose opinions are taken as gospel have hyped it to the heavens.

 

Some press members as well 

the reason is popular because it is fairly priced and good sounding

how many 272 buyers were a forum member before buying a 272? 

I think 272 is product for new recruitment to brand rather than cannibalising 282/252/552 owners maybe a also a good price point product to upgrade from 200s/super uniti

naim wont make money just from upgrades

How old is the NAP200?

Maze's second post on this thread states 3 years from new.

Nap 200 - not my favourite power amp but that's mainly because it didn't suit my speakers. It has plenty of fans elsewhere on this forum. 

ryder. posted:

After much experimentation with the placement of the Harbeth Super HL5 Plus, these are the ideal dimensions I have got. Dimensions in millimetres.  Notice the maximum outer edge distance between speakers at 2350 mm. When the speakers are moved further away from each other say 2400 mm or more, there is a reduction in punch and dynamics with the overall presentation sounding slightly duller.

Moved the Harbeths 20cm inwards on each speaker, nice improvement overall, tighter more together sound, treble much the same really but noticeable improved bass definition. Soundstage not as enveloping or wide, will have to live with the change to see what  prefer, but a nice improvement all the same. Plus it's another day older in use.

maze posted:

Moved the Harbeths 20cm inwards on each speaker, nice improvement overall, tighter more together sound, treble much the same really but noticeable improved bass definition. Soundstage not as enveloping or wide, will have to live with the change to see what  prefer, but a nice improvement all the same. Plus it's another day older in use.

That is a rather huge shift. Your can take your time to find the ideal placement in your room. The key is to find a good balance between tightness, togetherness and good bass definition (speakers close together) and a wide, airy and enveloping soundstage with the speakers placed further away from each other. I have a little OCD with regards to speaker placement. During my time with the old SHL5 (7+ years), I have probably moved them more than 200 times. That's because they are not easy to place in the room and the midbass bump is inherent with the speaker. The SHL5 Plus response is flatter and placement is much easier. I still moved them quite a bit for the past one year, all in small increments to find the ideal position. A change in amplification or any other gear may upset the balance and some adjustments to the placement may be necessary to restore balance.

It is unfortunate the treble remains the same. There are many suggestions here that may help to some extent but they all require money. Perhaps you need some time to warm up to the new sound coming from the SBLs. 

Ryder, am enjoying the tighter sound closer together. Will try now to halve the increment by 10 cm per speaker. Sounding pretty good actually. I am thinking maybe bass was too loose where the speakers were before so overpowering the highs a bit, maybe.

Timmo1341 posted:

badlands posted:

How does a reply go from not enough sparkle in the 272 to the 272 is the greatest thing since sliced bread evolve? I have heard the product, and also agree with the OP.

The fact is the 272 is a compromised product to meet a demand for streaming based customers, it doesn't compete sonically with any Naim dedicated pre-amps. The only reason it's so popular is because certain members on this website whose opinions are taken as gospel have hyped it to the heavens.

 

Our opinions differ, I'm afraid. Having done listening comparisons between 272, 555 & 250DR and various combinations of NDS, NDX, ND5XS, 252, 282, 202, 250DR & 300DR, whilst not for one moment claiming the former equals, or exceeds, the performance of a 6 box setup, I believe it gets very close, offers a brilliant sound and exceptional value for money. I'm certainly not one of the band of contributors to whom you're referring, just an ordinary music fan who enjoys hearing that music played well. I don't, for the life of me, get all this angst ridden competitiveness that seems to exist between certain contributors. If anyone truly believes his or her QB sounds better than someone else's Statement, what harm are they doing? No one is ever going to base a buying decision on that, so why have an online row about it?

Tim

What a jolly sensible post and one with which I can only agree.

I guess I might be one of the 'certain contributors', but I am commenting from years of experience with most of the equipment with which the 272/250DR is said to variously be better or worse than.

G

maze posted:

Hi just purchased a used 272 from naim dealer, it's a great upgrade over my 172, more detail, deeper soundstage and separation of individual instruments in a recording, however I do find it lacks a bit a sparkle in the upper treble, which I also noted from the 172.

What did you make of the admittedly more expensive and also two box NDX and 202 into your NAP200?

I'm very happy with my 272, and while I've said this I've never hyped it to the heavens. All I've said is that £7,500 of 272/XPSDR isn't that far behind the CDS3/555PS/552 I owned in the past, and that I cannot tell the difference between the 272/XPSDR and NDX/282/Hicap. If people want lots of boxes then that's great. If people want a simpler setup then that's great too. I really don't give a monkey's that there are better setups available, and it seems rather weird that people take against the 272 so much, to the extent of saying that it's some sort of blanded out Hifi substitute just because it has a streamer and a preamp in one box. I think my setup sounds great, I can afford it, and that's all that matters to me. 

Christopher_M posted:

maze posted:

Hi just purchased a used 272 from naim dealer, it's a great upgrade over my 172, more detail, deeper soundstage and separation of individual instruments in a recording, however I do find it lacks a bit a sparkle in the upper treble, which I also noted from the 172.

What did you make of the admittedly more expensive and also two box NDX and 202 into your NAP200?

I've never owned a 202 or NDX so can't comment.

I wouldn't worry about some people's opinions of the 272.

There seem to be more for it than agin ' it anyway. 

I'd  like to hear one but am too busy enjoying 282 HC, 250DR right now.

maze posted:

Christopher_M posted:

maze posted:

Hi just purchased a used 272 from naim dealer, it's a great upgrade over my 172, more detail, deeper soundstage and separation of individual instruments in a recording, however I do find it lacks a bit a sparkle in the upper treble, which I also noted from the 172.

What did you make of the admittedly more expensive and also two box NDX and 202 into your NAP200?

I've never owned a 202 or NDX so can't comment.

Ah. I wrongly assumed that you'd done the comparative dem and preferred the N-272.

Emre posted:

If we compare similar priced packages

Option 1 - 272/555/300 list price 16,700£

Option 2 - 282/hicap/250/xps/ndx/hiline  17,450£

Option 3 272/xps/250 10,000£

Which one sounds better ? Which one you will buy? Which one is a good value for money?

I am leaving the extra fraim  cost aside..... I opted for option one and very happy about it but did not compare with option 2 or 3, they might be better souding  options 

They all good

I bought 282 because I already had Hicap DR.

But if I did not, I would have bought a 272.

While I preferred 282 to 272 in a direct A/B, the 282 had a Hicap, while 272 was running without XPS, and then also without a genuine Naim power cable, and also plugged into a extension with other SMPS.

Not a fair fight at all.

I'm not overly overwhelmed by differences in preamps anyway.

Source first for me, and also work on the weakest link

For all 250/300/500 based systems, it appears to be the DIN/XLR cable, which times very well, but when I heard Superlumina DIN/XLR, well everything including PRAT got a lot better. Soundstage, resolution, bass, refinement of treble, it's amazing, how much the standard DIN/XR actually holds back. The better cables do not harm the signal as much as the lesser and inferior cables.

So whether 272 or 252 or 282, I'm not excited about the differences between those anymore, as I learnt, source first, and pay attention to cables.

I think the reason why HungryHalibut is happy with his system is because he has a Superlumina full loom, and power lined.