cisco 2960 8tc/ vs paul pang tcxo

2960 vs Netgear + LPSU

Well, this is all quiet subtle.

The 2960 is a nicely built little switch. In terms of what I am hearing:

2960
Music feel a bit more relaxed
Some detail comes through more easily
Some high frequencies a tad more strident

Netgear+LPSU
Slightly more dynamic
Slightly more transparent

Examples:
I have a number of 'difficult/interesting files' that I use for demoing. I will mention two here.

Grace - Jeff Buckley 16/44.1
From about 4.03 Buckley builds, almost screaming into the mic by the end.
He backs himself multiple times as the crescendos are reached.
2960 - I felt that the layers as Buckley backed himself were revealed slightly more easily
NG - as Buckley began screaming into the mic the distortion was slightly better handled here

Rachmaninov Symphony No 1, 1st Movement, HDTT, Ormandy 9624
Love this Symphony. This rendition can sound a bit lively.
About 6 mins in a xylophone joins the percussion top left.
2960 - Some notes are strident, zinging.
NG - Doesn't happen, notes remain controlled.

Currently I am sticking with the NG, but, I am VERY tempted to strip out the SMPS from the cisco and run it using an LPSU - just doing some research.

M

P.S. Keler - I have one fancy main cable, never heard it make a difference to anything. I did try it with the 2960 and thought it may have made a smidgen of +ve change .....all VERY subtle, and would have hated to try it double blind.

Mr U - I have probably missed it - what are you streaming into? - and which 2960 version are you using .. on the 2960 one variant can run with a 48 volt DC power feed and uses a highly filtered internal buck converter to allow it to be powered by PoE or standalone power supply. I use one of these amongst others. I really would be cautious however in using a  regular linear power supply that has not been designed to work with that specific switch  with out the correct HF load filtering as it might well be  pushing the powesupply/switch setup out side the EMC/RFI specs. With out the right equipment you might not be able to determine this. A Buck converter, in case you don't know, is an internal DC to DC converter switch mode type power supply for transforming voltage to current and vice versa.

A slightly dirtier more RF loaded environment can remove detail and remove edge definition - some might and do actually prefer this - and way back in the early days of the awareness of RFI in hifi this was quite a common talking point..

Mr Underhill posted:

2960 vs Netgear + LPSU

Well, this is all quiet subtle.

The 2960 is a nicely built little switch. In terms of what I am hearing:

2960
Music feel a bit more relaxed
Some detail comes through more easily
Some high frequencies a tad more strident

Netgear+LPSU
Slightly more dynamic
Slightly more transparent

Examples:
I have a number of 'difficult/interesting files' that I use for demoing. I will mention two here.

Grace - Jeff Buckley 16/44.1
From about 4.03 Buckley builds, almost screaming into the mic by the end.
He backs himself multiple times as the crescendos are reached.
2960 - I felt that the layers as Buckley backed himself were revealed slightly more easily
NG - as Buckley began screaming into the mic the distortion was slightly better handled here

Rachmaninov Symphony No 1, 1st Movement, HDTT, Ormandy 9624
Love this Symphony. This rendition can sound a bit lively.
About 6 mins in a xylophone joins the percussion top left.
2960 - Some notes are strident, zinging.
NG - Doesn't happen, notes remain controlled.

Currently I am sticking with the NG, but, I am VERY tempted to strip out the SMPS from the cisco and run it using an LPSU - just doing some research.

M

 

P.S. Keler - I have one fancy main cable, never heard it make a difference to anything. I did try it with the 2960 and thought it may have made a smidgen of +ve change .....all VERY subtle, and would have hated to try it double blind.

if you find a way to put a linear ps on the cisco, i would be very interested. I made researchs but not found: it is 48v....

Remember professional switches like the 2960 are designed somewhat differently - although almost certainly they are utilising internal  buck converters (DC SMPS)  to create internally +12 volts and possibly -52 volts depending on the 48 Volts PoE /DC feed. So if you really want to try and remove any sort switching power supply I would look at adapting the Redundant Power Supply input and ensure you have a model that can take a modular  RPS. I note most of the RPS inputs are 12 Volts at 4 Amps with a few also specifying -52 volts at 8 amps. However this would be very much be in the space of experimentation.  I have not dabbled here......

Mr Underhill posted:

2960 vs Netgear + LPSU

Well, this is all quiet subtle.

The 2960 is a nicely built little switch. In terms of what I am hearing:

2960
Music feel a bit more relaxed
Some detail comes through more easily
Some high frequencies a tad more strident

Netgear+LPSU
Slightly more dynamic
Slightly more transparent

Examples:
I have a number of 'difficult/interesting files' that I use for demoing. I will mention two here.

Grace - Jeff Buckley 16/44.1
From about 4.03 Buckley builds, almost screaming into the mic by the end.
He backs himself multiple times as the crescendos are reached.
2960 - I felt that the layers as Buckley backed himself were revealed slightly more easily
NG - as Buckley began screaming into the mic the distortion was slightly better handled here

Rachmaninov Symphony No 1, 1st Movement, HDTT, Ormandy 9624
Love this Symphony. This rendition can sound a bit lively.
About 6 mins in a xylophone joins the percussion top left.
2960 - Some notes are strident, zinging.
NG - Doesn't happen, notes remain controlled.

Currently I am sticking with the NG, but, I am VERY tempted to strip out the SMPS from the cisco and run it using an LPSU - just doing some research.

M

 

P.S. Keler - I have one fancy main cable, never heard it make a difference to anything. I did try it with the 2960 and thought it may have made a smidgen of +ve change .....all VERY subtle, and would have hated to try it double blind.

i want to say that i had similar impressions for sound quality. For the little edginess of the cisco on some tracks, i put an acoustic revive lan isolator between my router and the cisco. The edginess gone away for me.  I know simon doesn't share this , but we are a lot on this forum and other forums to experience very positive upgrades on sound quality with it. 

I strongly recommend it, it costs around 200GBP and you can return it easily on the bay...

Thanks for the feedback Mr Underhill. It's all sounds like subtle changes and not all for the better. I think I may as well stick with my little Cisco 110d with supplied smps for now. 

At the moment I'm using only cat 6 between the Rauter and the Netgear switch, An addition of a lan isolator will I get any improvement in term of sound quality.

Hi Simon,

Thx for the advice.

My system:

Most of this built up as I was trying to solve an issue which I resolved by getting my earthing right. I need to start stripping some of this out and seeing if it makes a difference.

Mr Underhill posted:

 

Most of this built up as I was trying to solve an issue which I resolved by getting my earthing right. I need to start stripping some of this out and seeing if it makes a difference.

 

 I'm sure simplification in the replay chains would give you a good starting point to reassess your setup. I can understand how you've got here given the problems you were trying to solve, but with this sort of complexity you may be creating more issues as you've introduce more components into the chain.

James

james n posted:

Mr Underhill posted:

 

Most of this built up as I was trying to solve an issue which I resolved by getting my earthing right. I need to start stripping some of this out and seeing if it makes a difference.

 

 I'm sure simplification in the replay chains would give you a good starting point to reassess your setup. I can understand how you've got here given the problems you were trying to solve, but with this sort of complexity you may be creating more issues as you've introduce more components into the chain.

James

i thought my network was complex, i finally have something more simple vs this ....

router>lan isolator>meicord lan>cisco 2960>audioquest vodka>fmc swich( powered by hdplex 5v) > 2 optical cables>fmc switch( powered by uptone audio js2)> audioquest vodka > nds/555dr

cisco> meicord > unitserve ( powered by uptone audio js2)

Hi Mr U - thanks for sharing -  as James has suggested I suspect useful gains can be made through simplification ... ideally you want to cut down on the number of discrete components and powersupplies in your replay chain at least - as each one will be introducing its own noise and possible inconsistencies - good old closed system theory. A good old systems design adage is if you are having to unduly add complexity to a solution for using a given set of components then  you are probably using the wrong components for that solution.

I would definitely drop those media converters with linear power supplies between the switches - to me that is just asking for trouble ... if you want to use fibre media use devices that support SFP transceivers that are powered by the host power supplies and interface to the device back planes

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Mr U - thanks for sharing -  as James has suggested I suspect useful gains can be made through simplification ... ideally you want to cut down on the number of discrete components and powersupplies in your replay chain at least - as each one will be introducing its own noise and possible inconsistencies - good old closed system theory. A good old systems design adage is if you are having to unduly add complexity to a solution for using a given set of components then  you are probably using the wrong components for that solution.

I would definitely drop those media converters with linear power supplies between the switches - to me that is just asking for trouble ... if you want to use fibre media use devices that support SFP transceivers that are powered by the host power supplies and interface to the device back planes

 

this media converters with linear ps are the most important upgrade for sound quality i had in my system( for streaming with my nds), we are a lot to experiment that.  Theory can't explain all, sorry simon......but there are and were topics for that...so i will not continue 

Hi, A question for Simon in Suffolk again, please. Do you think the Cisco 2960PD-8TT-L with external power supply would benefit with a specialist PS or not and do you think it sounds any different  to the version with an internal ps.

I am asking as I want to give one a go and I am experiencing a problem with the Paul Pang Zyxel oxco with interference on my phono stage (I believe because the earth/ground are not connected between the switch and clock, if I connect them it stops working, any ideas there?)

Many thanks yet again Simon, in advance.

Rich 

Hi Rich, I suspect it won't make any difference at all. Most of the clever stuff with power regulation and noise decoupling will almost certainly be taking place close to the componentry in the switch itself..which I suspect would be a pre requisite for it to meet its EMC certification.

perhaps you can describe the noise interference you are getting with your current setup... it could be from bad Ethernet cabling etc. I had a similar issue once with poor cabling and a Netgear switch which was introducing 'birdies' on my Naim FM tuner. (NAT05). Birdies on FM from discrimination and stereo decoding are a symptom of RFI, and I fairly sure what I heard in the warble was low frequency jitter from the Netgear switch clock... this is not good in audio in terms of noise coupling and we don't always have a FM discriminator to readily hear it....... most low demanding home data networks however couldn't care less about this'll it makes no difference to standard data transfer.

Simon

French Rooster / Simon,

I am now a 2960 believer.

I was in NO hurry to change my system as I am very happy with what I am hearing .....BUT, I was off on hols last week and the night before we left my main Cisco switch began thrumming as one of the fans kept going out of balance. I decided to quickly replace it with the 2960 so that my daughter could sleep while we were away, I am just too kind.

On returning I have noticed a positive difference, not dissimilar to removing SMPS, but in a different part of the audio spectrum. This is all subtle, but writing it below will make it all sound absolute and simple - not to my ears.

SMPS removal
Sounds more 'relaxed', by which I mean all the detail & timing is there, just 'feels' more like music (sorry - vague). High frequencies that could be sharp and highlighted in places now aren't.

2960
Sounds more 'relaxed', by which I mean all the detail & timing is there, just 'feels' more like music (sorry - vague). Low frequencies that could be vague and indistinct in places now aren't.

Found myself listening to more whole albums, not hoping about as it all sounds soooo good.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

French Rooster / Simon,

I am now a 2960 believer.

I was in NO hurry to change my system as I am very happy with what I am hearing .....BUT, I was off on hols last week and the night before we left my main Cisco switch began thrumming as one of the fans kept going out of balance. I decided to quickly replace it with the 2960 so that my daughter could sleep while we were away, I am just too kind.

On returning I have noticed a positive difference, not dissimilar to removing SMPS, but in a different part of the audio spectrum. This is all subtle, but writing it below will make it all sound absolute and simple - not to my ears.

SMPS removal
Sounds more 'relaxed', by which I mean all the detail & timing is there, just 'feels' more like music (sorry - vague). High frequencies that could be sharp and highlighted in places now aren't.

2960
Sounds more 'relaxed', by which I mean all the detail & timing is there, just 'feels' more like music (sorry - vague). Low frequencies that could be vague and indistinct in places now aren't.

Found myself listening to more whole albums, not hoping about as it all sounds soooo good.

M

i am glad you are more enjoying now.  I didn't understand what is your smps removal : you changed the ps on the 2960?

For me i kept the 2960 too, but put an acoustic lan isolator before it and optical bridge after, with linear ps. The cisco alone sounds a little hard on my ears. 

Hi FS,

No the 2960 is unchanged, followed Simon's advice there. Any device in my system that WAS powered by an SMPS is now powered by a LPSU; subtle but additive.

M

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi FS,

No the 2960 is unchanged, followed Simon's advice there. Any device in my system that WAS powered by an SMPS is now powered by a LPSU; subtle but additive.

M

ok, i have done the same:  uptone js2 for unitserve and tplink, hdplex for second tplink. But even with that, i found the cisco a little hard:  acoustic revive between router and cisco put off this hardness.   But some ddidn't found the cisco 2960 a little hard and  edgy....

Hi folks I am currently eyeing a WS-C2960-8TC-L on the bay. It doesn't have a power cord, am I right in thinking it takes a standard AC mains cable?

Regards, William

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

You might find that very short Ethernet patch leads are not optimum for connection to audio equipment..

What would you say is the shortest/optimum length of the patch leads?

I'm just in the process of doing some ethernet rerouting, so this is very timely :-)

Yes, a standard kettle lead. 

just looked at the paul pang website. He uses a standard 3pin XLR connector for dc power.

Sigh.

Solid Air posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

You might find that very short Ethernet patch leads are not optimum for connection to audio equipment..

What would you say is the shortest/optimum length of the patch leads?

I'm just in the process of doing some ethernet rerouting, so this is very timely :-)

It can of course depend on the PHY driver of the switch, some can detect cable length and reduce power accordingly, but with regular data uses the leads can be as short as you like, with audio equipment you might just benefit from a tiny bit of loss... I use 3 metres as a minimum 

William posted:

Hi folks I am currently eyeing a WS-C2960-8TC-L on the bay. It doesn't have a power cord, am I right in thinking it takes a standard AC mains cable?

Regards, William

Yes standard IEC C13 (Kettle ) lead... do ensure the seller has factory reset the switch... if you are not familiar with the device you don't want to mess around doing that... although fully managed configurable devices, when in their  factory default state they will operate like a simple unmanaged switch.

French Rooster posted:

Mr Underhill posted:

Hi FS,

No the 2960 is unchanged, followed Simon's advice there. Any device in my system that WAS powered by an SMPS is now powered by a LPSU; subtle but additive.

M

ok, i have done the same:  uptone js2 for unitserve and tplink, hdplex for second tplink. But even with that, i found the cisco a little hard:  acoustic revive between router and cisco put off this hardness.   But some ddidn't found the cisco 2960 a little hard and  edgy....

Hi FR,

Sorry it didn't work out for you. In my case it was replacing an old CISCO managed switch I had used for many years.

The 2960 in my case is in the loft in my server rack. Due to the nature of the beast there are a fair few SMPS in that location.

In my HiFi setup I now have no SMPS, my small Netgear switch being powered by a LPSU. Although, I do not use a separate ring or spur and so it is all on the same circuit, something I will address.

I have had an issue this week and so introduced a 9V IFI into the HiFi during troubleshooting, oh dear - it was very quickly moved back upstairs.

M