Supernait2 Hugo/Hugo2/HugoTT

Posted by: ThatsNotMyNaim on 12 July 2017

Hi all, 

I managed to borrow a Hugo2 and TT to compare at home. I used a SN2 and also a Sugden A21 as amp.

System

InnuOS Zenith (PL), stock USB cable with AQ adapter for micro connector, DAC, Chord Shawline RCA, SN2/SugdenA21 (PL), Epic Twin spk/Sig Links, ProAc 118 (Plus DB3 on loan)

Roomed is controlled well. Decent heavy/filled stands and racking.

I'm not really into double Dutch about tech specs and noise levels, so i'll say it how my emotional and musical ears hear it:

All work very nicely with the Supernait2/A21/ProAc.

I caveat my thoughts with the fact that there maybe other system factors that cause or contribute to certain percieved effects. I used the same USB for all. Before switching back to my preferred 15cm stock cable after. 

PS - expensive USB cables. Forget them. Keep it short and basic IME.

Hugo

Still sounds good. I think some will avoid the outlay for Hugo2 and not see it as essential. Others will say it's a must upgrade. It's definitely flatter sounding vs the bugger brothers. Much less air. Smeared/blurred compared to Hugo2 but some might prefer this. It sounds more upfront also maybe because of less feeling of space. Still enjoyable but I have always felt it sounds digital - I crave that analogue sound. People say Hugo is analogue - yes compared to most other DACs out there but it still doesn't capture that true analogue emotion for me. Never has, always feel a bit cold and thin. But I have enjoyed it still for the price. Maybe I should just buy vinyl! 

Hugo2

Much more 'air'. Much more dimension. More music. More realism. Everything sounds more lifelike by a good degree.

It's spacious, engrossing and haunting. With a real musical flair and drive. It's the purest and most entertaining of the three. The air of the stage goes high and wide with real panache. It's exciting and has a realistic flair and energy. Harmonics are scary good. Digital edge is stripped much further back vs Hugo1. This is soooooo close to that truly fluid analogue emotion. Where everything fits and works and is believable without questioning. In my opinion this is still however ever-so-slightly slightly short of purist analogue heaven. It's detail, space and cohesion of the music are quite uncanny but I still hear a slight wince of digitalness/hardness. Improved but not gone - maybe system related? 

HugoTT

At first I was listening to this thinking; "This is beautiful. Smooth, organic and more analogue...". It's "better". However after a few days flicking back and forward I have found the TT to be flatter, less inspiring and ultimately 'less musical and less realistic' than the Hugo 2. Yes, the TT is the wiser, MUCH more solid and controlles, smoother, more mature and probably more specy model but when you go back to the Hugo2 you hear the music more 'truly' and more 'believable'. More realsitic pace and energy in the Hugo2. The TT supresses/tempers/flattens the music I my opinion with it's smoothing and lacks air and flair vs Hugo2..However, there is a BIG trade-off. You loose a certain solidity, control and fullness of feel that the TT has that is very desirable. The Hugo2 sounds a bit more brittle and thinner than the TT. More gristle. Maybe just exposing the recordings more. I have tested many tracks though.

Conclusion

Hugo2/TT > Hugo

I'd be hard pressed to imagine anyone could deny that the Hugo2 doesn't do 'music' with more realism, pace, space, flair and evergy than the TT. If I were aiming for analogue then the Hugo2 goes further with some downfalls.

Likewise I would imagine most will clearly be able hear the solidity and control of the TT which makes it quick appealing/convincing.

For me you can hear the effects of new technology in the Hugo2 that take it to a more enjoyable and natural place than the TT despite it's slightly more brittle nature. 

My view

Wait for the TT2 (or maybe Naim will get moving on DACs). This new TT2 could be absolutely magical in my opinion if it forges a balance of the the H2 and the TT. It might just be the unicorn! 

If you have the money though right now and want to upgrade. My choice would be the Hugo2. 

The TT sounds great. But sounds like old technology when you hear the energy, sparkle, dimension and realism of the Hugo2. A fuller and slightly smoother Hugo2 will be absolute heaven. I'd be surprised if Chord haven't realised that the next TT2 could be another huge breakthrough.

Digital is getting more realsitic. But still a way to go I think. Just my two pence worth.

 

 

 

 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by analogmusic

Hi nice, very nice write up

there is one big problem.

"stock USB cable with AQ adapter for micro connector"

You simply won't hear what all these DACs are capable of with that kind of connection.

I'd run and buy a Vertere USB cable with the proper micro-connector, and listen again.

I was really pleased with mine and how Mojo sounds with that cable.

 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim
analogmusic posted:

Hi nice, very nice write up

there is one big problem.

"stock USB cable with AQ adapter for micro connector"

You simply won't hear what all these DACs are capable of with that kind of connection.

I'd run and buy a Vertere USB cable with the proper micro-connector, and listen again.

I was really pleased with mine and how Mojo sounds with that cable.

 

Hi Analog,

I'll give this a go. I use normally a short A to Micro B (without adapater) at 15cm which to date has been the best of a lot. Even tried one of those Curious things from Australia. Gave up after that finding the short stock USB to be better. 

I only use the AQ adapter to do the A/B so I ensure I am using the same cable for each DAC. Chord Co seem to think the adapater has no effect. I can't prove / disprove that obviously.

Do you use Double D-fi or single vertere?

Ta 

Adam

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by analogmusic

single one is good enough.

the single one (DFI) sounds great on Chord Dave also.

Chord cable, the reason they say adaptors are ok, is because their cables are not simple USB cables, they are Tuned Aray, and these are quite good, maybe the adaptor has less effect on those, but on a simple USB cable...?

I chose Vertere specifically because they make Micro USB, and I am very pleased with the outcome. Mojo sounds very good now !

 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by Halloween Man

Hi Adam, thanks for posting your thoughts. I haven't had a chance to compare TT with Hugo 2 side by side in the same setup but my impression so far of owning Hugo 2 is as you describe, more three dimensional than TT, with more realistic timbres.

I wonder if the galvanic isolation of the TT USB input helped in your testing? Hugo 2 doesn't have this feature so with a noisy usb source connected to mains then it might introduce some of that brittle or gristle you perceived. No usb cable will resolve this, a better solution would be an isolator - either an optical cable or something like intona usb or modern energy efficient and silent battery powered laptop such as new generation entry level macbook - not connected to mains, and no device connected to laptop that is connected to mains such as ethernet cable.

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by M37

Hi,
Thanks for posting your thoughts.
Off topic but what do you think about the Shawline RCA interconnect together with Supernait 2?
Have you compared to other Chord cables in their range? I recently listened to the epic interconnect  and found it very detailed and open.

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim

Shawline sounds ok to me but I heard a Signature and that was a game changer. Waiting for a second hand one to appear somewhere. More natural sound again. Not tried Epic.

On the DAC note. I think I am going to pass up all of these and start to Save for Dave :-). 

I tried all sorts of optical convertors, isolators etc etc. Found they all did something but never what I had hoped. 

The TT gets closest. But it's not quite there and £3.5k is a lot of money for 'not quite there'.

I feel like I have given all these a good chance with expensive quiet sources, power cables etc.

I'm super sensitive to digitalness. 

I'm not sold on cleaning vinyl either! 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by Hmack

THATSNOTMYNAIM posted:

I'm not sold on cleaning vinyl either! 

I don't know if you have tried a good RCM, but in my experience cleaning vinyl properly almost always gives a significant boost to sound quality.  

Have you tried cleaning your vinyl, and if so, have you felt that this degraded the sound or just didn't make any difference?

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by Mayor West

Thanks for posting your thoughts Adam... very interesting.

I like yourself have tried all manner of different USB cables, adapters, converters etc and have ultimately gone back to the stock USB cable. I have however, kept two Audioquest Jitterbugs in the chain to good effect. Have you tried these? I feel they do take off some of that digital glare associated with noisy sources like my Macbook.

Judging by your use of SN2, I guess you decided to upgrade in the end from the Nait XS?

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by james n

All this talk of Chord DACs (i blame Ali..) has got me thinking about trying some of Chords finest. So i've ordered a Mojo to have a play with.

Start small etc...

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by Mayor West
james n posted:

All this talk of Chord DACs (i blame Ali..) has got me thinking about trying some of Chords finest. So i've ordered a Mojo to have a play with.

Start small etc...

I'm surprised you've never sampled the delights!

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by james n

Never really needed to MW but i'm just a bit intrigued by Chords offerings. I think my Melco should be able to run another DAC from it's front panel USB socket (only one way to find out..) so it could make a nice little headphone setup when i don't want to use speakers. We'll see 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by analogmusic

It's a one way ticket to Chord 

Posted on: 12 July 2017 by M37

Speaking of Hugo 2, if Chord 2Qute is essentially a Hugo in a Chordette chassis then it should soon be a "2Qute2"?

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim

Hi all,

Chiming back in after 4 days. Neighbours out. Playing loud. 

The TT is solid and convincing but lacks the ultimate musical elation and atmosphere I seek. You know when you get lost inside all those sparkly, fast notes l like you are in a hadron collider in another dimension. :-) 

The Hugo2 isn't as clean, solid, organised and firm. But it goes a "long" way to musical elation and air. Makes you want to rojoice despite it's limitations vs it's bigger brother.

Hugo2 is heart strings.

TT is head strong.

TT2 = Dac for life I reckon. I think Chord may reach a milestone with the TT2 as I said originally.

Borrowed a few different DACs just to check I wasn't becoming a Chord rep. Nothing came close. On, off and back in the box in 15 mins the others. Mytek was closest. But wasn't near as good as the Hugo2.

Also just for Naim reference I borrowed a Chord Sig power lead and tried this on the SN2 / Sugden / Zenith. Lost a lot of musicality but sounds beautifully open and detailed. My head and my toes didn't know what to do. Powerlines restored. Even on the Sugden. 

Will likely buy the H2 until TT2 comes. Can't justify the TT without that musical air.

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim
Hmack posted:

THATSNOTMYNAIM posted:

I'm not sold on cleaning vinyl either! 

I don't know if you have tried a good RCM, but in my experience cleaning vinyl properly almost always gives a significant boost to sound quality.  

Have you tried cleaning your vinyl, and if so, have you felt that this degraded the sound or just didn't make any difference?

I dont own any. Ha. Maybe I should. The cleaning puts me off. :-)

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by Halloween Man

Great write up, particularly liked the hadron collider metaphor.

It would be very interesting to know your thoughts if you got hold of an intona usb and fed H2 a bit perfect lossless data stream with usb-if certified cables (as recommended by Intona) without any adaptors. This is as far as I am aware the only product on the market offering true hi speed galvanic isolation on usb.

I'm not sure there will be a Hugo 2 TT, who knows. I say that because what mainly seperated TT from Hugo was better batteries (not necessary now, H2 design works without batteries), remote (H2 has remote), XLR (RCA single ended has better sq in Rob Watts designs), asynchronous usb on hd  (H2 has it), better analogue components (H2 measures better), and galvanic isolation on usb (Rob Watts has stated this not necessary with H2 due to better filtering when using a quiet isolated source such as iphone, iPad, or modern battery powered laptop (for example, new generation entry level macbook). If H2 was improved further it would seriously step on the toes of Dave.

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim
Halloween Man posted:

Great write up, particularly liked the hadron collider metaphor.

It would be very interesting to know your thoughts if you got hold of an intona usb and fed H2 a bit perfect lossless data stream with usb-if certified cables (as recommended by Intona) without any adaptors. This is as far as I am aware the only product on the market offering true hi speed galvanic isolation on usb.

I'm not sure there will be a Hugo 2 TT, who knows. I say that because what mainly seperated TT from Hugo was better batteries (not necessary now, H2 design works without batteries), remote (H2 has remote), XLR (RCA single ended has better sq in Rob Watts designs), asynchronous usb on hd  (H2 has it), better analogue components (H2 measures better), and galvanic isolation on usb (Rob Watts has stated this not necessary with H2 due to better filtering when using a quiet isolated source such as iphone, iPad, or modern battery powered laptop (for example, new generation entry level macbook). If H2 was improved further it would seriously step on the toes of Dave.

Hadron collider = how music should sound :-)

I grew up raving to euphoric trance. Ha ha. These days my home tastes have very different dynamics. 

Thanks for the Hugo2 info. I think I will get an Intona and try. I have a Powerline feeding my Zenith and the shortest possible USB A to Micro B so it is already very competent. 

Maybe the the Intona will finish things off.

I try a Regeb but that naffed up sound. 

My big worry is finding short USB cables to go between the Intona. Because the more USB cable lenth you add the more the sound deteriorate dramatically. 

Regardless of how 'well shielded' they claim to be. 

I'm going to try and Vertere D-fi double as apparantelt this elimates the power from the data.

 

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim

Intona. Industrial or regular version differences?

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by Halloween Man

I'm going to lose all credibility now and tell you I demoed TT and Dave side by side for a number of days at home and I preferred TT. Take that with a pinch of salt as many factors were in play at the time, including poor room acoustics. After that demo I decided to treat my room. Dave had more bottom end and my room was already struggling to cope with TT. Dave had incredible instrument and vocal to timbres, very realistic. It also had amazing soundstage depth, very holographic. I remember being wowed by the Toms on 'this feeling' by Alabama Shakes. However, I found vocals a little recessed on Dave, almost too polite, and the soundstaging at times I thought sounded a little disjointed, like the pudding was over egged. I suspect a lot of my issues with Dave was simply a case of room / speaker interaction and placement, and simply not allowing my brain enough time to accept and adjust to this new dimension of sound.  The TT in comparison was flatter with more bite but with a more cohesive and smaller soundstage and depth.

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by Halloween Man
ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Intona. Industrial or regular version differences?

Took this from Intona website:

We really cannot comment in a scientific way on the difference of Industrial vs Standard version in terms of audio quality.

Fact is:

  • both versions do the same job: isolate, repacketize, provide clean power
  • quality audio measurements confirm this

But also fact is:

  • Industrial version has full characterized parts and some better parts in sense of temperature grade (this is the reason for the name given)
  • nearly all customers seem to hear a difference in audiophile-grade environments in favour of the Industrial one
Posted on: 13 July 2017 by ThatsNotMyNaim
Mayor West posted:

Thanks for posting your thoughts Adam... very interesting.

I like yourself have tried all manner of different USB cables, adapters, converters etc and have ultimately gone back to the stock USB cable. I have however, kept two Audioquest Jitterbugs in the chain to good effect. Have you tried these? I feel they do take off some of that digital glare associated with noisy sources like my Macbook.

Judging by your use of SN2, I guess you decided to upgrade in the end from the Nait XS?

Hey Mayor.

Yes concedes in the end and picked up a second hand one. All the boxes and cables were driving me mad.

I listen to the Sugden more now thougn. Fuller and faster. Doesn't have that Naim driving force quite but very engaging.

I bought a JB but it just sounded like scrabble. I think it was broken. But it worked on my PC. Not my Zenith.

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by Halloween Man

If the Intona makes no difference you can always just send it back

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by fatcat
Halloween Man posted:

 more cohesive

That trumps everything else.

What cables where you using?????

 

 

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by Halloween Man
ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

I'm going to try and Vertere D-fi double as apparantelt this elimates the power from the data.

 

 

I remember reading on another forum Rob watts stating this is not necessary because of his design and just use standard usb cable. intona recommend usb-if certified which is what I use. Anything 1m or less usb-if certified. I just use Belkin.

Posted on: 13 July 2017 by james n
ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

Intona. Industrial or regular version differences?

No SQ difference. The connections on the industrial are more robust but that is it. I had one a while back (also had a Regen) - the Intona worked well between my Mac and Dac and is worthwhile here. With the Melco there was very little, if any difference. 

Having spent quite a bit of time messing about with these things over the years, my tip is to get the best USB source and a decent USB cable. Simple really is best