Power Supply Upgrades to Nac n272

Nait2owner posted:

The moderator censored my last opinion because I named another product that was not Naim.  This is really a cult like mentality and does not allow for freedom of expression and the written word.  Naim and Linn have communist like values of audio and claim we have to buy into their socialistic ideals or else be driven out of their club.  I am just disgusted with this suppression and I'm going to say goodbye to the forum and to this hi fi company after 40 years. 

Honestly I think some people come here just to be offended. 

If you have owned for 40 odd years and have peruse this forum for more than a few nanaosecomds you'd know the rules about 3rd party power supplies. 

Freedom of expression! Communist mentality. May the Hifi fairy transport you to North Korea for a week or so and you might learn proportionality.

what was it Dylan sang - if you gotta go, we'll go now-

 we'll have a good wake.

.sjb

intothevoid posted:

Richieroo posted:

I used a 555 with my past beloved 272 it was really good .......... I would imagine the 555dr would be awesome.....

It is 

Hi intothevoid

+1 

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Nait2owner posted:

Yes there was a typo sorry!  I did prefer the XPS over the 555 for the n272 and NDX.  We did careful listening tests with music that was unknown to me and some microphone test.  It was a better match than the 555.  However, the 555 was much better for the NDS.  

In my comparison I did not know which power supply was being played until after the listening session.  I think people have a placebo effect or simply convince themselves that because they spent $12,000 (US) on a power supply that it simply is the better choice. 

At the same time, the n272/XPS DR sounded better than my olive 52/SuperCap, which was really amazing.  The 52 had a tad more high level detail on some recordings the pre amp in the 272 was a much bigger sound stage, had more density and a more full sound.  The bass was also much better.  It it amazing how good this product is on it's own.  Naim hit a home run with this product. 

 

 

Before I get accused of commenting on something which I do not have experience with, I wish to mention that I don't have experience with the 272, XPS DR or 555 DR. However, this topic got me interested and I would like to expand on your experience and notion of placebo effect.

Firstly, the 272 costs £3,469 while the 555 PS costs £6,530. Personally my opinion is the 555 PS is a mismatch to the 272 in terms of cost, though sound-wise it can be an improvement OR a mismatch(downgrade) as you have found. The XPS DR costs £3,820 and this should rightfully be the ideal or optimised partner for the 272 on both cost and sound aspects. The XPS DR is already costlier than the 272 itself so it is actually good enough if not an overkill for the 272.

Perhaps that was the reason you found the 555 and XPS DR to better match the NDS and 272 at their respective price points and not the other way round.

Secondly, the notion or perception of the costlier gear coming up better all the time. I have mentioned this several times now - it is the preconceived notion or expectations of a particular gear based on price. It may not happen all the time but these things can happen. Even before listening to the gear, the costlier piece may have been regarded as superior as it's higher level and more heavily-engineered. It's a predetermined impression. After a listening session, the impressions may remain biased for the same reasons as the sound quality of the higher level gear has been predetermined to be better. Your experience of listening to both XPS DR and 555 on the 272 blind and preferring the former has suggested that matching of gear, in this case the 272/XPS DR is more important than the price of gear.

Having said that I understand it can be a case of personal preference as some might find the 272 to sound better with the 555 than XPS DR. Nevertheless, your experience has proven that the costlier gear in this case the 555 may not sound better than the cheaper XPS DR all the time.

Nait2owner posted:

The moderator censored my last opinion because I named another product that was not Naim.  This is really a cult like mentality and does not allow for freedom of expression and the written word.  Naim and Linn have communist like values of audio and claim we have to buy into their socialistic ideals or else be driven out of their club.  I am just disgusted with this suppression and I'm going to say goodbye to the forum and to this hi fi company after 40 years. 

I can understand your frustration but just like what others have said, you may have mentioned something that's prohibitive on the forum. You can still post competitor's products sounding better than Naim's own on this forum (Chord DACs or Sarum cables for instance), and for this reason I have to applaud Naim for their open approach. Try posting something sounding better than Harbeth on the User Group and you'd be despised and mocked by the clan, a tight-knit community. There is a slight exaggeration on my part but I presume you get the drift. I think the Naim forum is pretty open and friendly albeit with occasional but harmless banter.

And 555 makes you ready for imaginary 372

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

+100000

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

As you know the XP5XS is very good and was a nice upgrade to your CDX2 at the time

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ly=19447375217599919

For me the XP5XS was a nice improvement to my 272, okay made the PSU within the 272 redundant but this would be the same for the CDX2

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant.

Not unlike adding a HCDR to the SN2. Nothing fantastic, simply the Naim way. You buy-in or you don't.

Nait2owner posted:

The moderator censored my last opinion because I named another product that was not Naim.  This is really a cult like mentality and does not allow for freedom of expression and the written word.  Naim and Linn have communist like values of audio and claim we have to buy into their socialistic ideals or else be driven out of their club.  I am just disgusted with this suppression and I'm going to say goodbye to the forum and to this hi fi company after 40 years. 

Viva la revolution

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

I have always been confused by this surely by it's very nature the 272 is a compromise, to cram all of those electronics into a Classic sized case must mean there is some loss of SQ and so then buying a separate psu and in some cases one over two times as expensive as the 272 to improve SQ seems a bit back to front.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Bob the Builder posted:

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

I have always been confused by this surely by it's very nature the 272 is a compromise, to cram all of those electronics into a Classic sized case must mean there is some loss of SQ and so then buying a separate psu and in some cases one over two times as expensive as the 272 to improve SQ seems a bit back to front.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

 

I agree, but the nice thing with Naim is you have an extended range of choices if you feel so inclined.. you can serve up your tunes in just about anyway you wish... whether it technically makes sense or not. Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.....

Which is why I was surprised the new Uniti range does not provide this option for future upgrades. It may have been yourself Simon, that mentioned the new circuit design, does not need a lower "noise" floor.?

Nait2owner posted:

The moderator censored my last opinion because I named another product that was not Naim.  This is really a cult like mentality and does not allow for freedom of expression and the written word.  Naim and Linn have communist like values of audio and claim we have to buy into their socialistic ideals or else be driven out of their club.  I am just disgusted with this suppression and I'm going to say goodbye to the forum and to this hi fi company after 40 years. 

Sorry you feel that way Nait2owner. You are free discuss whatever you like so long as it doesn't contravene the forum rules.

When you sign up to the forum you are effectively agreeing to abide by the forum rules. The rules are there for very good reason and not just written up on a whim. 

Discussion of unauthorised modifications to Naim equipment (which includes non-Naim PSUs for pre-amps, CD players etc.) is not allowed for a number of reasons - your kit won't perform as Naim intended, there are serious potential warranty implications, possible safety implications, some companies have requested in very strong terms that their name or products not be mentioned or discussed on here, etc..

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

Massimo, my friend, I think you are perhaps being a little too cynical. Adding a power supply to the 272 is no different to adding one to a CDX2, NDX or indeed the Supernait, as Joe mentioned above. I would never say that a 272 is better than a 282, but I have heard the NDX/282/Hicap and my 272/XPS and couldn't say which is better. People with 282s in some cases seem slightly threatened by the 272, which simply 'cannot' be as good or nearly as good. Then there are people like Antonio who say that any separate steamer and preamp will by definition be better, even when listening shows this not to be the case.

It's important to remember that the 272 is not simply a preamp, it's also a streamer and radio. That it manages to sound is good as it does, for what it costs, is quite extraordinary, and adding a power supply is entirely optional. The fact that you can get such a good sound from two, or three, boxes is surely something to be celebrated. People can have six if they wish to have ultimate sound quality and/or to impress their friends. 

That said, even I am a little bored with 272 threads, and was only moved to contribute to this one by your comment, which is unfair to 272 owners. 

I agree it might seem strange to buy a unit & then replace its internal power supply with an external PSU.    It needs to be remembered the internal power supplies are less sophisticated than the external units.   Take XPS for e.g.  It powers the same six  15v, 10v & 22v circuits internally powered by three voltage regulators.   The XPS has six regulators;   two 15v rails powered by two separate regulators with +15v/0v from each.    The 10v & 22v rails are changed from the standard +v/0v internal power supply  to asymmetric - this is dual polarity - positive and negative on either side of a common 0v.      This, amongst other things, does bring improvements in SQ.     As Simon says  "whether it technically makes sense or not..........."  

Emre posted:

And 555 makes you ready for imaginary 372

We can only hope 

HiFiman posted:

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

As you know the XP5XS is very good and was a nice upgrade to your CDX2 at the time

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...ly=19447375217599919

For me the XP5XS was a nice improvement to my 272, okay made the PSU within the 272 redundant but this would be the same for the CDX2

 

I don't think so, I fear.

272 is the very least to benefit from any and would be better not to waste money on costly PSUs.

As Roger found out ,stating :The choice of power supplies really does depend on the box it's attached is a great way to deal with it. He found out the hicap to really transform  SN because of its  pre amp and power amp in a box ,relieving the power amp from feeding it , you get a pre amp. And even more as we think of preamps, you get to the next level.

And that obviously does more than nDAc /XPS where a PSU is already fitted , though it still  improves a LOT  more than a compromised design.

The Naim specialist should advice you best not earn your money, I think.

Hungryhalibut posted:

Max_B posted:

I find this fantastic: Naim builds the first preamp with its power supply inside, and the first thing that owners do is buy an external one making the one on board redundant. Then they say that the 272, in spite of having an onboard psu, is better than a 282 which has none but sounds very good with just a HiCap, while the 272 needs at least an XPSDR....

I don't know if I am more amazed by Naim marketing skills or by some buyers'.... I pitifully lack the word.

M

Massimo, my friend, I think you are perhaps being a little too cynical. Adding a power supply to the 272 is no different to adding one to a CDX2, NDX or indeed the Supernait, as Joe mentioned above. I would never say that a 272 is better than a 282, but I have heard the NDX/282/Hicap and my 272/XPS and couldn't say which is better. People with 282s in some cases seem slightly threatened by the 272, which simply 'cannot' be as good or nearly as good. Then there are people like Antonio who say that any separate steamer and preamp will by definition be better, even when listening shows this not to be the case.

It's important to remember that the 272 is not simply a preamp, it's also a streamer and radio. That it manages to sound is good as it does, for what it costs, is quite extraordinary, and adding a power supply is entirely optional. The fact that you can get such a good sound from two, or three, boxes is surely something to be celebrated. People can have six if they wish to have ultimate sound quality and/or to impress their friends. 

That said, even I am a little bored with 272 threads, and was only moved to contribute to this one by your comment, which is unfair to 272 owners. 

Listening shows are useless. 

Especially at certain levels.

Quite so. It's so much better to rely on one's own preconceptions. 

Preconception on me, I 'm afraid.

My findings are at the dealers'.

What I think it's a very subjective view of you and others.

What I've often found here , as I like to read between the lines, is that shows foster all these hyped comments, whereas emotions recollected in tranquillity ,after extensive demoes at dealers' make people testify different findings.

I've never been to a Hifi show, and have no desire to go. I find dealer demonstrations difficult as well, and think that you only find how good something is when you live with it at home. Something that sounds impressive as the dealer's can in reality be quite hard to live with. As I've said before, I chose my system without hearing it, based on the fact that it has the minimum number of boxes, only two mains leads and a nice volume knob. People might think that's daft, but it works for me. I was very surprised that when I heard an NDX/282 at a Forum member's house I didn't find it any better. But then we were listening to different speakers and not making critical comparisons while we ate lunch and drank tea. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter what is better or best; what matters is that the owner is happy with it and it meets their needs, whatever they may be. 

I think the 272/282 debate will rage on for years just like the 72/102 but who cares as long as one is happy with their purchase and plays a nice tune in your environment.

I agree with you, far from underrating the product.

It's a good one, I would have bought it and saved myself some money if it had proved the place to hang my hat. Unfortunately hasn't, as I've usually found that what I'm after always directs me to separates.

Mind you I don't rate much the SN an many other products.

What I mean is that the all-in box, money wise, could give much more if funds where directed towards, say ,one fraim base, , Core, PL ethernet and cabling, router, you know the usual stuff to help any Naim or else sound at its best in a much more balanced way. Not sure if your very findings 272 vs282 may not been compromised by set-up issues ,though.

But if people tend to rate 555 PSUs to be the ideal path, sorry I can't be blamed to tell the truth, even if its my own.