Streaming Audio - Have Naim bitten off more than they can chew??

IT certainly looks that way. And when you look at others such as Linn that appear to have been working well in this arena for years, it looks like Naim are well behind the curve.

maybe they should break out this service from their original offering of amplification before irreparable damage is done

i heard that some members have problems with the app. I don't know why, but for me no problem with nds and unitserve streaming. So perhaps it doesn't work well with the new uniti range, uniticore i guess?  i hope it will be fixed soon.

I would imagine internally that it's like a hornets nest of activity in parts, Naim must have £££'s of R&D cash and forecasted revenue tied up as well as component and raw material cost on their books giving the FD sleepless nights. One thing that I do know is that quality in terms of build, sound etc will be at the forefront of their minds. They'll get away with poor user experience if they fix the software/firmware issues quickly.

Naim's challenge is around technologies that have been bolted on to products, software, data over radio etc. Wifi is less that 20 years old and has been mainstream for just 10, and, was not even in scope for 'traditional hi-fi' for many years.

Companies in the IT space drive the technology hundreds of billions of R&D dollars invested, then Naim, with a turnover of less than £50M need to dance to the latest technology tune - I can see where they struggle, in addition, there is limited resource in the UK that will be a factor.

TH - your point is valid around saving face, if the new Uniti's are not near perfect, there will be a storm that they may never recover from for this product type.

And I must have said this 20 times before on here, clear, concise, communication is critical - and that has not happed, even to this day.

If Naim can't get their app together (which appears to be the case) they should seriously consider Roon. People who can afford a Naim streamer will most likely be willing/able to dish out for a Roon lifetime subscription.

Personally I wouldn't go near anything that doesn't offer me the same or better user experience and reliability than my SB Touch.

My problem is tech companies will not last a lifetime.........Here today gone tomorrow.

Shame I know but they are most probably doing their level best. None of us are perfect at the end of the day. I love my NDS, the Unitilite is still doing excellent service and the QB I installed a few days back worked perfectly out of the box. As for the latest app, that'll come true in the end but until then I'll continue running the previous version.

I was an early adopter with an Oppo 203 UHD blu ray player and that had more than it's fair share of bugs so Naim are not alone. I expect that  Vervent is also taking a keen interest.

all are valid points .It seems they are lagging in software expertise , and its costing  them dearly.  Costs and reducing sales of their core business must be a factor.  my guess more of naims products in the future will be sourced in the east

What really is sad is the pathetic resale value of this type of product. The fact that the software sucks doesn't help.

An audio-friend of mine keeps pointing this out to me and as a Naim owner I feel insulted and remind him that, contrary to the computer based products, the amps generally keep their value quite well. Despite this it's enough for him to tell everyone that he would never buy a Naim product.

I don't think Naim are any different to most Hifi manufacturers. Devialet are having huge difficulties with AIR, but you probably don't know that if you don't go on their forum ( or the Roon one). 

Most prospective purchasers of the uniti series will be the same, quite unaware of the gestation period issues. 

I think a mistake may be the attempt for backwards compatibility with the app and old and new architectures. 

Customers who were happy with the old app are p1ssed off currently with a poorly thought out release. This should have been left at the last stable iteration and a naim uniti app created for the new architecture. It really has to happen at some stage or the new series will be hobbled, might be best to bite the bullet now. 

.sjb

It's pretty obvious that they are having big difficulties living within the restrictions that the old platforms NDS/NDX/172/272 have and the New platform is necessary so they can have a modular upgradable software architecture to bring them forward. It does look like they vastly underestimated the complexity of launching the new range, although the gear itself looks great. I argue that the statement NAIM app is more buggy than others, I actually like the app tremendously, my main complaint is it is not flexible enough with organizing music. I like the app better than the Roon or Sonos app and have personally not had much difficulty with it. 

My personal opinion is that moving into streaming and getting a new platform is essential for their survival but they are really showing signs of having poor project management and technical guidance as they have missed their goals so many times and have not even gotten firmware out for the existing units that have been promised for a year. Overall I love the NAIM streaming platform, I intensely enjoy my 272 and QB and can't think of a competing unit I would rather have. 

I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

Other companies have difficulties too. Which company hasn't?

Cut Naim some slack. 

Their legenday products, like 252, 282, Supercap, 250 don't need wifi, and well.... one can just buy a Nait, Supernait, 202/200DR.... and NDX. 

whats the problem? I am typing this while listening to my 282/HCDR/250DR.

it's all about the music...only about the music,

analogmusic posted:

I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

Other companies have difficulties too. Which company hasn't?

Cut Naim some slack. 

Their legenday products, like 252, 282, Supercap, 250 don't need wifi, and well.... one can just buy a Nait, Supernait, 202/200DR.... and NDX. 

whats the problem? I am typing this while listening to my 282/HCDR/250DR.

it's all about the music...only about the music,

Gosh you're so right, sometimes the answer is so simple isn't it?

.sjb

analogmusic posted:

I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

Other companies have difficulties too. Which company hasn't?

Cut Naim some slack. 

 

I work in the Motor Trade, believe me when I say software issues there take on a whole new meaning of customer dissatisfaction.

I was on a train in Romania the other week and was amused to note that the Spotify App could locate my 172 in the dining room at home. The wife confirmed that it was able to control it.

Given how often the Naim app fails this simple task when it is in the same room it is clear that Naim need to invest more in the software side.

I may not get likes for this post, but the reality is you don't see other hi-end companies trying so hard as Naim to increase the quality while decreasing prices

Naim is trying very hard to please the everyone, while you simply don't see FM acoustics, Krell, B&W, or D'agostino lowering their prices. Look at prices of the B&W Diamond 3 range of speakers. They have priced me out as a future customer, anyway I'm very happy with Dynaudio

Naim is hi-end, and sometimes when companies try to give Mercedes quality for Toyota prices, some patience is needed.

I remember when I started out with Naim in 2010, there simply was not this level of quality (172, 272, SN2, SU) at those prices.

Be thankful, and be patient.

And there are always the hi-end products, which are ready and waiting for your credit card - like NDS/555, 252/SCDR/300 DR and Superlumina cables..

And then one can always buy pre-loved Naim kit from the various great UK dealers, I don't understand still  what is the issue?

analogmusic posted:

I may not get likes for this post, but the reality is you don't see other hi-end companies trying so hard as Naim to increase the quality while decreasing prices

 

Naim is trying very hard to please the everyone, while you simply don't see FM acoustics, Krell, B&W, or D'agostino lowering their prices. Look at prices of the B&W Diamond 3 range of speakers. They have priced me out as a future customer, anyway I'm very happy with Dynaudio

Naim is hi-end, and sometimes when companies try to give Mercedes quality for Toyota prices, some patience is needed.

I remember when I started out with Naim in 2010, there simply was not this level of quality (172, 272, SN2, SU) at those prices.

Be thankful, and be patient.

And there are always the hi-end products, which are ready and waiting for your credit card - like NDS/555, 252/SCDR/300 DR and Superlumina cables..

And then one can always buy pre-loved Naim kit from the various great UK dealers, I don't understand still  what is the issue?

 

 

 

I am one of the long serving customers with high end stuff, having 552/500 system, but also have a secondary system on the streaming front using core and awaiting atom delivery.

I sold my Qute nearly a year ago in preparation for the new atom, yet to be delivered. I have had to send the core back to the factory to solve software issues that lost several thousand albums of music (luckily backed up elsewhere).

i am not aware of Naim reducing prices, but actually increasing prices while not delivering the product ordered several months ago.

yes it's about the music, which is why I am waiting for a solution to the needs of a secondary system, but clearly Naim do have problems that are damaging the brand and need to get it sorted

they are feeling the pressure I'm sure.

The decrease in prices I meant were the 172 and 272.... maybe it is the trend of the market, but now one can buy 272/100 and have good performance which was simply not available in 2010.

analogmusic posted:

I may not get likes for this post, but the reality is you don't see other hi-end companies trying so hard as Naim to increase the quality while decreasing prices

What particular insight do you have as to what Naim are trying to do, strategically or otherwise, especially with regard to their internal price structure? I gave your post an antagonistic "like", only because I can't give it a genuine "dislike"

analogmusic posted:

Naim is trying very hard to please the everyone

Could be the crux of the issue. Please the stockholders is now a stronger consideration for Naim under Vervent than traditional values?

Having just read this entire thread, whilst not entirely surprised I am moved to suggest one or two contributors need to 'man up'. This is yet another example of a First World problem you should give thanks for being able to afford!

I must be one of the lucky ones (or have a properly sorted wired network) but my three systems run perfectly without a hitch. I can't begin to understand what the problem with the Naim App is, as mine seems to run smoothly.

I wonder how many of the moaners have raised their issues directly with the appropriate Naim personnel, rather than simply whingeing on a public forum? If you feel that strongly then why don't you simply vote with your feet?

As ever in life, it is normally only those with issues who are moved to set pen to paper. This is my contribution to the positive side of the scales.

Tim 

joerand posted:

analogmusic posted:

I may not get likes for this post, but the reality is you don't see other hi-end companies trying so hard as Naim to increase the quality while decreasing prices

What particular insight do you have as to what Naim are trying to do, strategically or otherwise, especially with regard to their internal price structure? I gave your post an antagonistic "like", only because I can't give it a genuine "dislike"

analogmusic posted:

Naim is trying very hard to please the everyone

Could be the crux of the issue. Please the stockholders is now a stronger consideration for Naim under Vervent than traditional values?

to be honest, it's almost weekend for me, and I'm looking forward to playing some music on my Naim hi-fi

I don't have the interest  to engage in any irrelevant debate about the crux of the issue with what Vervent wants, if Naim is late with their products, there are not the only ones, and so what if there are.

As technology becomes more and more complex, this is the way it is going to be, for all companies selling such products. 

What stockholders think, what vervent wants, what you dislike or not, simply do not care, just wanna go home and play some music.

I have a chord Dave, which always works just great with my laptop, same with my Naim DAC V1 before that, I know a number of people with 272 and they all work fine, but the thing in common is that they have some basic IT knowledge and know how to set up a NAS and a router, but then for those who don't consult your friendly and local Naim dealer and enjoy the music.

Slim68 posted:

analogmusic posted:

I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

Other companies have difficulties too. Which company hasn't?

Cut Naim some slack. 

 

I work in the Motor Trade, believe me when I say software issues there take on a whole new meaning of customer dissatisfaction.

A couple of years ago I bought a new Mazda - the first car I have owned that had an 'infotainment system' rather than a good old fashioned car stereo.

As delivered this had some pretty serious bugs in it ranging from random re-boots and freezes to having to pull over at the side of the road to switch the engine off as a work around to changing the radio station I was listening to... if you think Naim software is bad...

Anyway, after a number of firmware updates - which gradually cured some of the problems - but introduced others - it would appear that somebody at Mazda realised enough was enough as the latest update has cured all of the problems and made a big improvement to the responsiveness of the system. I can only assume they scrapped and re-wrote lots of code such has been the night and day improvement. It now works really well and having driven various other cars with 'infotainment' I think is up there with the best of them for ease of use.

So, my conclusion is Mazda make great cars but they and their customers have been through a lot of pain with the software. However, they got there in the end. Just because a company is good at hardware doesn't automatically mean they will be good at software and poor software can really ruin the end user experience.

The other thing is that (from my own experience) its easy for one to become obsessed by these issues when really they are not that important in the great scheme of things. Lots of people just get on with their lives and never care about this sort of stuff. Is there a link between OCD and Audiophiles I wonder? - perhaps a new thread needed for that.

Keep the faith, if the money doesn't run out first surely Naim will fix the issues eventually, frustrating though they are in the short term.

analogmusic posted:

I have a chord Dave, which always works just great with my laptop, same with my Naim DAC V1 before that, I know a number of people with 272 and they all work fine, but the thing in common is that they have some basic IT knowledge and know how to set up a NAS and a router, but then for those who don't consult your friendly and local Naim dealer and enjoy the music.

 

I have a DAVE too, it is indeed magnificent, and the DAC is pretty much entirely implemented in software in the FPGA. But the user interface isn't very good really. You can't select an input directly on the remote, you can't switch between headphones and line-out, if you set cross-feed on the headphones this setting persists when you switch back to standard output, despite the fact there is no indication of it at all - a great way of really screwing up the sound if you are unaware of it. So nobody is perfect. Chord have a new Poly streamer module out for the Mojo - will be interesting to see whether they pull if off, or it is just a big mess. Developing competent software is very different from developing hardware, and good software guys are hard to find. Well managed, well motivated, good software guys are even harder to find! 

interesting, I'll go home and check the crossfeed settings thanks for posting this.

I don't have much interaction with the user interface as mine is used 100 % with my laptop through USB (with a Vertere USB cable)

as you may know, Chord are unable to supply Blu2 units on time, as first they had unexpected delays in obtaining the FPGA for the million tap upscaler, then some critical resistors are not available for all of 2017. I can't blame Chord for this, it is beyond their control that suppliers are unable to deliver key parts.

from Rob Watts himself on head -fi

"For example, 4 weeks ago a scheduled delivery for the Xilinx FPGA was supposed to turn up. It was not delivered, and Chord were told another 12 weeks. Fortunately they managed to find some in the USA, but these issues are typical today.

To give you another example. You can always buy resistors, ex stock. Its like sand in the building trade. But Rohm resistors have now closed 2017 order book; deliveries from Rohm is now 2018. This is just plain crazy. And there is no warning; confirmed scheduled deliveries are simply not being met. "

I think Naim have done a pretty good job for the last 40 + years, and will keep doing so, all companies have hiccups, it isn't such a big deal, it is about playing music and enjoying, and well 272 is a very fine streamer / preamp.

I.T. is a complete pain. There are many players who want things to move for a plethora of reasons. Standards exist that are then broken. I.T. is complex.

I have just bought a new DAC. It came with an option to have a USB input, I demurred. USB is an area that is also moving, anything that is fitted today will probably be state of the ark within 18 months ....so I use a DDC.

In years gone by I bought into Naim AV, and was very pleased with the results ....but, this too was an area that moved at speed and was subject to evolving standards, integration testing and licence fees. This is a tremendous strain for small companies.

I feel that Naim are right to stay in the digital audio field. I hope that their design is such as to allow truly modular upgrades. I feel that with their free code updates they are maintaining faith with their customer base. Perhaps by delaying the roll out of the new units they are being a better manufacturer than, say, Microsoft - who habitually sell complex IT which contains bugs.

M

I just noticed the other day that my Android app doesn't identify my 272 as such...it displays the IP address and says NaimUniti (IIRC).

It actually seems to find the network a little easier than before. That said, as far as operational ease and such, it still does not work as well as my SBT on the second system using a 3rd party app (Squeezer) to run it.

As someone who tests software for a living, I think the QA on Naim software is lacking.

However, as posted above, it IS a first world problem, and falls in a the nuisance category. The company for whom I toil has terrible software, and it is much more impactful because it is used in a hospital to dispense medication, and a "bug" can literally end up killing someone.

Someone else also said it is simply about the music - and I agree, which is why I have gotten pretty pissed off when I can't play mine, and have to spend 10-15 minutes with reboots and the like to get it to play.

I am sure the vinyl crowd sees a certain level of poetic irony on threads such as these!