Streaming Audio - Have Naim bitten off more than they can chew??

The issue is that naim is a premium product at a premium price - and that comes with quality delivery responsibilities from day one. In the case of Core, that means last December.

I note Linn stayed well away from making a unitiserve or core product.

 My synology NAS never gave me a single minute of grief.

Chord electronics also don't make such a product either. 

Buy a £5000 Naim streamer that sells in the thousands of units and you are buying  a few hundred thousand pounds worth of software development. Buy a £300 NAS or a £30 Chromecast, that sells in the hundreds of thousands, you are buying hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of development. 

It's not about ongoing support, it's about getting it right first time. That clearly costs more than the Naim business model can generate.

analogmusic posted:

I note Linn stayed well away from making a unitiserve or core product. 

A friend of mine is investigating a streamer of some sort to replace his old Linn CD player & maybe the rest of his system.  He's a bit of a 'pooter dumbo,  he wants a Linn or Cyrus but I suspect (bet) he will end up with a Sonos.   The Linn dealer recommended a Innuos Zen.  

rip with asset or use   j rivers  transfer to a nas and back it up. £300  why do you need to spend upto £2k to give you the same result,

in 7 yrs no drive has failed

Mike-B posted:

analogmusic posted:

I note Linn stayed well away from making a unitiserve or core product. 

A friend of mine is investigating a streamer of some sort to replace his old Linn CD player & maybe the rest of his system.  He's a bit of a 'pooter dumbo,  he wants a Linn or Cyrus but I suspect (bet) he will end up with a Sonos.   The Linn dealer recommended a Innuos Zen.  

That's the problem Mike - i think we are spoiled these days with products like Sonos which have a great user interface and just work out of the box with less than optimum home networks. Less inituitive / flaky solutions stand out like a sore thumb unfortunately. 

Analog - swings and roundabouts - I can understand the Naim approach where you control more of the system variables to optimise the whole Serving / Streaming architecture for best SQ. 

I really hope Naim get this sorted. The engineering that goes into these products is top notch and never fails to impress so hopefully the software side will get sorted out too. 

James

analogmusic posted:

I note Linn stayed well away from making a unitiserve or core product.

 My synology NAS never gave me a single minute of grief.

Chord electronics also don't make such a product either. 

Actually Linn used to make a ripper / server product called the Kivor...

Phil

I'm sure the core software issues (if any?) will be corrected.

My basic requirement would be : does it serve music, yes or no.

if it does (and I understand there is no problem with that), then fine - it works.

All other micro-complaints about meta data and any other such non-issues, well, sorry but not even worth talking about.

Although not high end a Raspberry Pi works quite well with Roon and LMS. Arguably the two best streaming software available.

Bryston understood this and, for those who are allergic to DIY, has just launched the BDP-Pi a digital music player that is built with the Raspberry Pi/Hi-fi Berry platform. In this case they chose to not reinvent the wheel.

Sloop John B posted:

I don't think Naim are any different to most Hifi manufacturers. Devialet are having huge difficulties with AIR, but you probably don't know that if you don't go on their forum ( or the Roon one). 

Most prospective purchasers of the uniti series will be the same, quite unaware of the gestation period issues. 

I think a mistake may be the attempt for backwards compatibility with the app and old and new architectures. 

Customers who were happy with the old app are p1ssed off currently with a poorly thought out release. This should have been left at the last stable iteration and a naim uniti app created for the new architecture. It really has to happen at some stage or the new series will be hobbled, might be best to bite the bullet now. 

.sjb

You are quite right about Devialet. The streamer board which was announced with the Pro series last year has had its official delivery date announced as October 17, is called Core Infinity and includes functionality to deliver UPnP, AirPlay and Spotify. It misses out on Tidal, Deezer and Qobuz, which will be delivered sometime after October 17. In order to get the new functionality your Pro will have to be sent back to France to have the new board inserted. For those with Pro level Devialets this will be free. 

At the same time, I am receiving plenty emails about the Pro's Roon readiness and compatibility with AIR (if you're in the least interested you can look that up). I have a 250Pro which I use with Audirvana+ in order to play Tidal. Am waiting to see what the board delivers before blowing any money on Roon or any other alternative. Am not really interested in cataloging loads of music as am happy with all Tidal delivers at the moment.  Nevertheless, there is quite a variance in the quality of recordings available and the Devialet emphasises that.

In order to upgrade the firmware of the Devialets you have to extricate the SD from the back of the device and download the upgrade via your Mac or PC which does seem to be rather pedestrian in the so called internet connected world. This is also the means for configuring the device. Am hoping that the new board might eliminate the SD card but am not hopeful. 

The looks, flexibility and quality of sound of my 250Pro is at least the equal of Naim imho but it is clear that the software development needed in a streaming world is a real challenge to the smaller companies even if owned by Louis Vuitton or Focal.

analogmusic posted:

I'm sure the core software issues (if any?) will be corrected.

My basic requirement would be : does it serve music, yes or no.

if it does (and I understand there is no problem with that), then fine - it works.

All other micro-complaints about meta data and any other such non-issues, well, sorry but not even worth talking about.

You're not a classical music listener, then?

james n posted:

Mike-B posted:

analogmusic posted:

I note Linn stayed well away from making a unitiserve or core product. 

A friend of mine is investigating a streamer of some sort to replace his old Linn CD player & maybe the rest of his system.  He's a bit of a 'pooter dumbo,  he wants a Linn or Cyrus but I suspect (bet) he will end up with a Sonos.   The Linn dealer recommended a Innuos Zen.  

That's the problem Mike - i think we are spoiled these days with products like Sonos which have a great user interface and just work out of the box with less than optimum home networks. Less inituitive / flaky solutions stand out like a sore thumb unfortunately. 

Analog - swings and roundabouts - I can understand the Naim approach where you control more of the system variables to optimise the whole Serving / Streaming architecture for best SQ. 

I really hope Naim get this sorted. The engineering that goes into these products is top notch and never fails to impress so hopefully the software side will get sorted out too. 

James

If you have any kind of complex network the Sonos is a dumpster fire. I disagree it is plug and play, I have found it far more fiddly than NAIM's solution. For the current NAIM streamers and Mu-So it is very plug and play in my experience. 

Sonos in my experience, son, daughter & numbers of others have proved very reliable & very plug & play.   None however have complex systems with other unrelated brands attached.     I have to say that in my Naim experience with a single source all wired network that it is not far off plug & play.   But in line with the thread subject line, it was without doubt plug & play in the past but the app we have now with its multi room & probably the most challenging the integration of old & new platforms has proven to be less reliable than past apps.    

Not quite sure why Sonos even gets a mention on this forum. My brothers house is totally 'Sonosed' and the sound reproduction is less than impressive - perhaps he's doing something wrong?

No one is saying anything about Sonos SQ,  the discussion is over its plug & play functionality compared to what we have with Naim at the moment.

Timmo1341 posted:

Not quite sure why Sonos even gets a mention on this forum. My brothers house is totally 'Sonosed' and the sound reproduction is less than impressive - perhaps he's doing something wrong?

It's decent enough kit. Not for critical listening in the lounge, but for getting sound around the house in an easy way it's ideal. 

Anyway back to complaining about Naim streaming products (of which i had no real issues when i used to use them either) ...

Mike-B posted:

No one is saying anything about Sonos SQ,  the discussion is over its plug & play functionality compared to what we have with Naim at the moment.

Understood, but it seemed perhaps like was not being compared with like?

As an ex Naim streamer user (I used to have an ND5 XS feeding a Chord Hugo DAC in one of my systems), I find it quite strange that so many people either dislike the Naim (IOS) app or simply cannot get it to work consistently. I don't use the Naim app any more, since my only bit of Naim kit at the moment is a Muso Qb, and I use that almost exclusively for Internet Radio. However, I always liked the Naim app when I did use it, and I found that it worked every bit as consistently as any other interface I have tried. I know this statement is not much use for those who encounter frequent problems, and for those who do, I very much sympathise. However, it indicates that streaming using the Naim app is capable of running pretty flawlessly, and I suspect that optimising one's local network (using a decent NAS such as Synology or Qnap, and a good uPnP server such as Minimserver) would potentially get rid of most of the problems people attribute to the Naim app.    

To put this into some context  and for what it is worth, I currently use Linn Kazoo, Lumin and Marantz front end interfaces for my current systems, and would rate them and the Naim app in the following order from best to least good:

1. Linn Kazoo for Windows - an almost perfect user interface for me in all respects.

2. Naim app for IOS (bespoke for Naim, so used exclusively in conjunction with Naim streamers)

3. Linn Kazoo for IOS

4. Linn Kinsky for IOS

5. Lumin for IOS - I use this for my microRendu based streaming system simply because I cannot get Linn Kazoo or Kinsky to work with the microRendu (a problem I put down to Linn's non fully standard implementation of open source software). It is OK once you get used to it, but I really dislike the fact that you must construct playlists in order to play music. I find it annoying that it is not possible to simply locate an album and press 'Play'.

6 Marantz - pretty basic but functions adequately well for use in a bedroom based streaming system.

For me, Linn Kazoo for Windows wins hands down, but if I had to rely on an IOS app then for me the Naim app is probably the best that I have tried. These ratings are almost exclusively based on functionality and user friendliness, since (with the exception of problems with Linn apps with my microRendu), they all work pretty much flawlessly.  

I have never used Sonus, but have seen demonstrations of the Sonus ap, and I must admit that I struggle to understand why many seem to rate the Sonus app so highly by comparison with other control systems. For me, it is certainly not as good as Kazoo for Windows, and not significantly (if  at all) better than the Naim app.   

Timmo1341 posted:

Having just read this entire thread, whilst not entirely surprised I am moved to suggest one or two contributors need to 'man up'. This is yet another example of a First World problem you should give thanks for being able to afford!

I must be one of the lucky ones (or have a properly sorted wired network) but my three systems run perfectly without a hitch. I can't begin to understand what the problem with the Naim App is, as mine seems to run smoothly.

I wonder how many of the moaners have raised their issues directly with the appropriate Naim personnel, rather than simply whingeing on a public forum? If you feel that strongly then why don't you simply vote with your feet?

As ever in life, it is normally only those with issues who are moved to set pen to paper. This is my contribution to the positive side of the scales.

Tim 

 

I'm a bit mystified by the complaints as well, especially the assumption that everyone is experiencing the same problems.  I had lots of issues when I first set up my NDX 2.5 years ago.  Since then, it's been almost completely trouble free, especially since the last firmware update. Likewise, the app, on both my iPad and iPhone works just fine, very well, actually.  I'd say my user experience has been improving over time, not the converse.

I think one of the things that must be borne in mind is that, with so many different control options available, there will inevitably be issues.  Frankly, the assertion that because some people are having trouble with the app that Naim is going down the tubes is laughable, given the fact that this is an issue with all tech companies, regardless of the size or R and D budget.

I think Naim is commendably transparent in their communications on this forum, although I haven't paid much attention to the ongoing new Uniti issues, so my comments only apply to the classic series, and thus, you are free to call me uninformed.  But I wanted to weigh in with a positive user experience.

The fact that one can have almost any Naim kit returned to original (or better) spec by Naim or their distributors speaks to their commitment to their customers.   It's one of the things (sound being the main consideration, of course) that's convinced me to buy the SuperNait 2 that my dealer (Creative Audio in Winnipeg) was nice enough to let me audition in home for quite a long while.

Jeff

It would seem to be in the nature of anything computery to periodically fall over and generally torment us.

Is Naim kit any worse than any other manufacturer in this regard? Dunno. The trouble is we're talking about musical passion ramping up the angst here - not being unable to bang in a shopping list to Tesco.

John.

Yes it's a shambles but Naim are have made headway, a brave somewhat embarrassing one.

The app is a disaster, but I've found giant companies like Nespreso are also a total disaster in this field, they must spend good money of software in-house or big money to out source otherwise the experience get screwed.

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

This. 

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

I have a suspicion that this may be true in many cases. When I first got a Naim streamer, I set it up with scant regard for network setup, and I was about ready to take a sledgehammer to it until I learnt that it needed a robust LAN in order to perform. One could argue that this makes Naim streamers rather fussy, where other devices perform more reliably over any old WiFi setup, but I for one have had no real issues with any of the recent streamer firmware or app updates.

Got Hi-Fi? posted:

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

This. 

 

This?