Streaming Audio - Have Naim bitten off more than they can chew??

Hungryhalibut posted:

Got Hi-Fi? posted:

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

This. 

 

This?

Yes, as in, I agree. Not just with Naim, but with most brands of streaming devices, connection issues are more often problems of the home network than the gear itself. In many cases it can be fixed with simple adjustments to the network/router settings, in some cases, new routers. 

I've never seen 'this' meaning 'I agree'. Is it a Canadian thing? 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I've never seen 'this' meaning 'I agree'. Is it a Canadian thing? 

No, I think you just like picking at peoples posts. That is more likely the case here. 

Not at all. I was simply interested. It's always good to learn new things. 

I agree most problems are with the network,  or maybe better to say lack of network.    ChrisSU said (tongue in cheek I believe) Naim is a bit fussy compared to other systems that "reputedly" work flawlessly with wireless & other dodgy ideas such as powerline adaptors.    The only way for rock solid able to stream the highest data rates used in audio is an all ethernet wired network & in some cases via a switch rather than a less able wireless router trying to work as the switch.  I had all ethernet from the get-go & wonder why everyone can't understand why it the only way to get rock solid reliable.        

The app has for sure had issues over the last year or more getting it set up for multi-room & new platform,  and yes Naim have seemed to be chewing on a big mouthfuls during this time,  but it looks like we might at last be getting it sorted.   Give todays new iOS release v5.7.2 a go if you haven't done so already.

Mike-B posted:

I agree most problems are with the network,  or maybe better to say lack of network.    ChrisSU said (tongue in cheek I believe) Naim is a bit fussy compared to other systems that "reputedly" work flawlessly with wireless & other dodgy ideas such as powerline adaptors.    The only way for rock solid able to stream the highest data rates used in audio is an all ethernet wired network & in some cases via a switch rather than a less able wireless router trying to work as the switch.  I had all ethernet from the get-go & wonder why everyone can't understand why it the only way to get rock solid reliable.        

The app has for sure had issues over the last year or more getting it set up for multi-room & new platform,  and yes Naim have seemed to be chewing on a big mouthfuls during this time,  but it looks like we might at last be getting it sorted.   Give todays new iOS release v5.7.2 a go if you haven't done so already.

Once small fix I have found to help apps stay connected is to lock the router into a certain channel. When set to auto, anytime the channels change some apps drop their connection. This is a problem I had with 2 different brands of product. I have since locked my router to channel 6, and neither device ever dropped their connection again. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Not at all. I was simply interested. It's always good to learn new things. 

I guess it is more "internet speak" than a Canadian thing. Maybe I have just been spending too much time in fb groups. 

Got Hi-Fi? posted:

Once small fix I have found to help apps stay connected is to lock the router into a certain channel. When set to auto, anytime the channels change some apps drop their connection. This is a problem I had with 2 different brands of product. I have since locked my router to channel 6, and neither device ever dropped their connection again. 

I've not seen that problem & I've had mine on both auto & fixed.   First with a wireless hub with only 2.4GHz & then with a dual band that I had set to free roam around both bands & channels.   But to max out the dual band features I now have iPad (app) on 5GHz & its locked to Ch-48. 

I say I've never seen it,  but Mrs Mike has a laptop thats only 2.4GHz & I have that band set to 'smart' (auto) & she occasionally proclaims it's 'lost' the internet but gets it back in a few seconds,   might be one & the same.  Its hardly worth the bother to lock it on one channel as I've only got 3 neighbours that I can 'see' on my network scanner at the wireless hub location, but I might go lock up 2.4GHz on a fixed channel as well.  Nothing to loose.

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

Not at all in my experience, home networks are very basic things... they tend to either work or not, and kludges like home power line adapters or basic consumer wifi setups simply reduce performance, however the network protocols can be used to cope with such circumstances and the network applications should merely operate less efficiently or speedily... after all many of  the core network protocols  we use in our Ethernet networks today were developed to withstand a nuclear holocaust... so regrettably I say if there are usability issues it is almost certainly software application issues managing the the network resources correctly or sufficiently effectively...

analogmusic posted:

Naim is hi-end, and sometimes when companies try to give Mercedes quality for Toyota prices, some patience is needed.

Be thankful, and be patient.

 

 

 

Erm, when you say Mercedes quality I assume you mean hardware? Because if you try the software on a Mercedes it is the slowest most horrific user experience I have come accross. It is that sluggish that it reminds me of old dial-up modems. Had I tried the software before I bought my Merc I would have certainly changed my mind.

As for be thankful, be patient call, I'm afraid i dont think so. Well, unless you are one of those Apple fanboys that look at every model of the iPhone with adoration (like baby sparrows with mouths open waiting to be fed) whilst ignoring the fact that they are miles behind the competition. 

But I digress.... My issue with Naim is that as a new customer I was very attracted by the reputation of Naim and I was very excited indeed by the news of the Uniti range. Imagine the bad taste that the whole mess with the release of the Uniti range has left in my mouth. Delays, price increasses even before the product is releassed. And so on. And the cherry on top is this whole silent approach which is one of the most idiotic PR decision I have ever come accross. Naim will have to come up with a hell of a product in order to convince me to drop £££.

If Naim are satisfied with the customer base they have then they can afford to carry on the way they are. However, if, like most companies out there, they are looking to win new customers to ensure company and profit growth then they are going the wrong way about it.

Just go and have a listen to an Atom, I've heard it a few times at various shows and it's definitely worth the wait..

Got Hi-Fi? posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Not at all. I was simply interested. It's always good to learn new things. 

I guess it is more "internet speak" than a Canadian thing. Maybe I have just been spending too much time in fb groups. 

I believe using 'This' to mean agreement comes from Twitter, where it's used to imply agreement while retweeting.

Terms like 'This' and 'Thread' are entering mainstream online communication now, much like hashtag did a few years ago.

Language is an evolving thing.

I find the whole debate rather fruitless. The new range will either work well or it won't . . . if it doesn't, it will fail, and likely Naim along with it. If it succeeds then Naim will go forward with strength. It's a bet-the-company play. Why don't we all just wait and see?

That. 

.sjb

James T posted:

Just go and have a listen to an Atom, I've heard it a few times at various shows and it's definitely worth the wait..

I'm not that concerned about how good it sounds as much I'm concerned about how well it works and the experience as a whole. I can get good sound from a vintage turntable.

Solid Air posted:

I find the whole debate rather fruitless. The new range will either work well or it won't . . . if it doesn't, it will fail, and likely Naim along with it. If it succeeds then Naim will go forward with strength. It's a bet-the-company play. Why don't we all just wait and see?

It's the purpose of a forum really. It is for ranting just as much as praising.

If anyone has been following my struggles with the Core,see "new Uniti Core" thread,a lot of it might of been my own fault,or lack of knowledge of the product,and eagerness to quickly getting it up and running.Now though,all I want to do is start over,by formatting my SSD drive,yet I seem to have hit a wall with the app,I really wish the Core would of come with a remote too,like the 272,or the other Naim streamers.I am not sure if the Unitiserve has a remote,but,if I encounter problems with my 272 in the app...the remote always seems to get the job done.I assume the lack of remote is because there is no screen on the Core to look at,but should be some kind of failsafe ,when the app will not work,in my opinion,of course.

the only fault with the new range for old customers is that they will already have amplication  so a stripped down uniti is all is wanted

Got Hi-Fi? posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

Not at all. I was simply interested. It's always good to learn new things. 

I guess it is more "internet speak" than a Canadian thing. Maybe I have just been spending too much time in fb groups. 

Thanks for explaining: it's not something I'd seen before. I think I'm too old. 

To quote Phil Harris -

"With network based products there are several autodiscovery protocols in use - for users of Naim Streaming Products the common ones that are used are "Bonjour", (used by Apple Wireless AirPlay Configuration, Spotify Connect and the Naim app) "UPnP" (used by the streamers for locating UPnP servers) and "Ping" (used by our Music Servers for checking that devices hosting music shares and stores are still online).

 When any of these autodiscovery services fail (for whatever reason) then you will find that 'things don't work' and it is quite obviously easy to throw a comment up on the forums or drop us an email saying 'Your kit doesn't work" - however we have many thousands of systems in use and can often see trends or common issues that perhaps don't seem so obvious when your own system doesn't work.

The main issues that we see are from poorly implemented networks ... networks that are using multiple wireless access points or WiFi 'boosters' / extenders or Ethernet over Mains devices. We understand that wireless networking is a 'no-brainer' option and that using a set of plug in Ethernet Over Mains devices is much easier than running an Ethernet Cable but it is important to understand that the more layers of devices that you put into your network the more opportunity there is for things to go awry and the more difficult diagnosis of issues can become."

I currently have an autodiscovery issue with my ipad, but I don't blame the Naim app. It works fine with an android tablet.

Dozey posted:

To quote Phil Harris -

"With network based products there are several autodiscovery protocols in use - for users of Naim Streaming Products the common ones that are used are "Bonjour", (used by Apple Wireless AirPlay Configuration, Spotify Connect and the Naim app) "UPnP" (used by the streamers for locating UPnP servers) and "Ping" (used by our Music Servers for checking that devices hosting music shares and stores are still online).

 When any of these autodiscovery services fail (for whatever reason) then you will find that 'things don't work' and it is quite obviously easy to throw a comment up on the forums or drop us an email saying 'Your kit doesn't work" - however we have many thousands of systems in use and can often see trends or common issues that perhaps don't seem so obvious when your own system doesn't work.

The main issues that we see are from poorly implemented networks ... networks that are using multiple wireless access points or WiFi 'boosters' / extenders or Ethernet over Mains devices. We understand that wireless networking is a 'no-brainer' option and that using a set of plug in Ethernet Over Mains devices is much easier than running an Ethernet Cable but it is important to understand that the more layers of devices that you put into your network the more opportunity there is for things to go awry and the more difficult diagnosis of issues can become."

I currently have an autodiscovery issue with my ipad, but I don't blame the Naim app. It works fine with an android tablet.

Network issues if recognised by the user as such also frequently appear here with calls for help. Maybe once the Uniti range is fully up and running Naim should consider pushing more the idea of a self-contained store so that at least for a core (sic!) quality optimised system music does not need to be streamed over a network other than if being streamed from the internet (when the the streaming already has potential compromises).

in other words promote the Core, or maybe a subsequent derivation of it, in its mode as a renderer as well as store, feeding direct to a DAC without having to go across a network. I.e. to do the equivalent of what already Melco and Innuos Zenith do well. Maybe the Core is already a match for them in terms of sound quality -if so, simply promote that aspect. (And if not develop an improved version, whether as a Mk 2 or as a "marque separates" box.)

Methinks you're being a bit of a drama queen. When Linn DS was launched their control software was horrendous - and they offloaded it exclusively to 3rd party developers - all in the name of open source. I had an argument, telling them it's akin to BMW or Mercedes selling you a brand new car, and then telling you to go buy your own steering wheel. It's only in recent years Linn are taking responsibility for the entire user software chain.

At least Naim is doing so off the bat, and taking responsibility, cut them some slack.

analogmusic posted:

I don't understand why this is such a big issue.

Other companies have difficulties too. Which company hasn't?

Cut Naim some slack. 

Their legenday products, like 252, 282, Supercap, 250 don't need wifi, and well.... one can just buy a Nait, Supernait, 202/200DR.... and NDX. 

whats the problem? I am typing this while listening to my 282/HCDR/250DR.

it's all about the music...only about the music,

Whilst software problems can stop you listening to music until fixed, classic boxes can be infuriatingly difficult to get working to their full potential. If you start with all new kit then you get told to wait for it to get run-in. All manner of excuses and unexpected things to do like

- dedicated mains with the right mains cable, boxes plugged-in in the right order to the socket bank, what power cords to use other than the standard one, etc

- brain and brawn racks, careful ordering of boxes relative to one another, Fraim verses other racks

- cable dressing, what make of IC cables to use other than the standard one, speaker cable and speaker setup, room acoustics.

After 18 months and quite a few returned boxes (started with Uniti2 as I wanted to box up the CDs, tried ND5xS, went Classic for SQ, traded up from 250DR to 300DR) , power cords, and ICs my system is really sounding amazing.

It's a shame one is not told at the beginning that you don't get the true potential of your boxes until you put the full SL loom in including speaker cables. I think if Naim had a number of well setup rooms at Salisbury where you could hear what each level of system can sound like with your music we might learn what to expect of our own kit a few months after it arrives.

This forum is the only way to get advice and then the real gems can be difficult to find, such as doing SL ICs and speaker cable before the DIN to XLR (apparently the new cable for the IC and speakers balance bright with dull). It's a shame Naim tell you so little. I sometimes think they like us to suffer from upgradeitis!

Well I think hardware and software can both be frustrating. However, software does not affect the SQ but if it don't work there is no sound! I will re suit streaming in a few years.

Phil

After all the complaining about postponed delivery dates what's happening now that the Atom is in stock and delivering? I'm anxiously awaiting owner feedback.

Edit: OK sorry I just discovered a thread in the Hi-Fi Corner where feedback is starting to trickle in.

Let's hope it's lots of happy smiley faces.....please��