Streaming Audio - Have Naim bitten off more than they can chew??

Yes, indeed. I am hoping the new Uniti range will be a great success for Naim. That way they will be able to continue investment in streaming technology and the Classic range - ulterior motive you see. 

The initial feedback from the field looks very positive.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Dozey posted:

I was under the impression that most issues were with home networks rather than the Naim app. 

Not at all in my experience, home networks are very basic things... they tend to either work or not, and kludges like home power line adapters or basic consumer wifi setups simply reduce performance, however the network protocols can be used to cope with such circumstances and the network applications should merely operate less efficiently or speedily... after all many of  the core network protocols  we use in our Ethernet networks today were developed to withstand a nuclear holocaust... so regrettably I say if there are usability issues it is almost certainly software application issues managing the the network resources correctly or sufficiently effectively...

Hi Simon,

To take a very simplistic view on this issue can I run a scenario past you?

Lets say that you have a setup with a Mu-so, a UnitiServe / Core and a 272, the 272 and Core are hard wired back to the router and the Mu-so is running via WiFi to the router and there are "issues" with operation and reliability etc. sometimes the app will find the Mu-so and sometimes it won't, sometimes multiroom will work and sometimes it won't.

Lets say we then replace the router with A.N.Other (usually we would use something like a LinkSys EA series - I've been running 6300's and 7500's for the last few years - as we have had good results with those) and everything then works solidly ... would you say that is then an issue with the Naim App or the Naim kit or is it more likely to be an issue with the item that has been replaced?

I have a BT HomeHub5 where I live and - for reasons of 'geography' I have to uplink to it from the WAN side of my router via a WiFi bridge. I know from the what I see at home that the HomeHub5 gives me decent performance just after it has been rebooted (remember that this is just acting as an internet gateway for me - it's not running anything on my network) but over a period of time (usually three or four days) I get an increasingly sluggish internet connection *AND* the femtocell that also uplinks to the HomeHub across the same WiFi bridge becomes increasingly echoey to the point of being absolutely unusable.

We've tested several routers in the office (including HomeHub 3's and 5's) and we have found in our own testing that over a period of time they appear to simply drop packets - rebooting them usually sorts things for a few days but start hitting them hard again and they'll typically start dropping data again.

I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and the help that you give to people on here and don't wish to take away from that in any way but in our real world experience we do find that most issues that we come across are inherently linked to the underlying network.

Cheers

Phil

Filipe posted:

<< SNIP >>

However, software does not affect the SQ but if it don't work there is no sound! I will re suit streaming in a few years.

Phil

Actually software affects sound quality to a very large degree and a great deal of time is spent listening to different software releases and ensuring that releases are voiced correctly and signed off for sound quality ... there are normally discussions about sound quality whenever new firmware releases come out.

Cheers

Phil

audio1946 posted:

the only fault with the new range for old customers is that they will already have amplication  so a stripped down uniti is all is wanted

...which of course is the purpose of the ND and NAC-N ranges which are streaming source components and streaming preamps respectively.

The Uniti ranges are not aimed at those uses - they are "just add speakers" units.

Cheers

Phil

Innocent Bystander posted:

Network issues if recognised by the user as such also frequently appear here with calls for help. Maybe once the Uniti range is fully up and running Naim should consider pushing more the idea of a self-contained store so that at least for a core (sic!) quality optimised system music does not need to be streamed over a network other than if being streamed from the internet (when the the streaming already has potential compromises).

in other words promote the Core, or maybe a subsequent derivation of it, in its mode as a renderer as well as store, feeding direct to a DAC without having to go across a network. I.e. to do the equivalent of what already Melco and Innuos Zenith do well. Maybe the Core is already a match for them in terms of sound quality -if so, simply promote that aspect. (And if not develop an improved version, whether as a Mk 2 or as a "marque separates" box.)

What you're talking about sounds like the Uniti Star?

Cheers

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Network issues if recognised by the user as such also frequently appear here with calls for help. Maybe once the Uniti range is fully up and running Naim should consider pushing more the idea of a self-contained store so that at least for a core (sic!) quality optimised system music does not need to be streamed over a network other than if being streamed from the internet (when the the streaming already has potential compromises).

in other words promote the Core, or maybe a subsequent derivation of it, in its mode as a renderer as well as store, feeding direct to a DAC without having to go across a network. I.e. to do the equivalent of what already Melco and Innuos Zenith do well. Maybe the Core is already a match for them in terms of sound quality -if so, simply promote that aspect. (And if not develop an improved version, whether as a Mk 2 or as a "marque separates" box.)

What you're talking about sounds like the Uniti Star?

Cheers

Phil

Not sure: far as just streaming (playing) the files on the hard disk (i.e. if one has no need for ability to play CD or radio), is there any difference in sound quality between Star and the Core feeding a DAC, not across a network? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

Phil Harris posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Network issues if recognised by the user as such also frequently appear here with calls for help. Maybe once the Uniti range is fully up and running Naim should consider pushing more the idea of a self-contained store so that at least for a core (sic!) quality optimised system music does not need to be streamed over a network other than if being streamed from the internet (when the the streaming already has potential compromises).

in other words promote the Core, or maybe a subsequent derivation of it, in its mode as a renderer as well as store, feeding direct to a DAC without having to go across a network. I.e. to do the equivalent of what already Melco and Innuos Zenith do well. Maybe the Core is already a match for them in terms of sound quality -if so, simply promote that aspect. (And if not develop an improved version, whether as a Mk 2 or as a "marque separates" box.)

What you're talking about sounds like the Uniti Star?

Cheers

Phil

Not sure: far as just streaming (playing) the files on the hard disk (i.e. if one has no need for ability to play CD or radio), is there any difference in sound quality between Star and the Core feeding a DAC, not across a network? 

In that case you're not after a Star ... If all you're after is a hard disc player with local storage and S/PDIF output then that seems exactly what the Core already is...

Phil

I think you've forgotten the role of the dealer in all this.  They should be offering you advice on what to buy, run in, etc.  That's not to minimize the excellent advice and support on this forum.

And, forgive me, but is it not obvious that if Naim sell expensive additional cables (ie not included with the source) that they think that is the best way to get the best sound.   The website even says as much:  "During the development of Statement, our flagship amplification system, our engineers realised that they would need to design a whole new range of high-performance cables for it to reach its true potential."

Jeff

WilcoFT posted:

It's a shame one is not told at the beginning that you don't get the true potential of your boxes until you put the full SL loom in including speaker cables. I think if Naim had a number of well setup rooms at Salisbury where you could hear what each level of system can sound like with your music we might learn what to expect of our own kit a few months after it arrives.

This forum is the only way to get advice...

Phil

 

I think you've forgotten the role of the dealer in all this.  They should be offering you advice on what to buy, run in, etc.  That's not to minimize the excellent advice and support on this forum.

And, forgive me, but is it not obvious that if Naim sell expensive additional cables (ie not included with the source) that they think that is the best way to get the best sound.   The website even says as much:  "During the development of Statement, our flagship amplification system, our engineers realised that they would need to design a whole new range of high-performance cables for it to reach its true potential."

Jeff

There are threads where people discuss cables such as the current one on whether the 282 is the starting point for Superlumina. Much of this forum is about how to improve SQ. The current 552 thread has one person remarking that he was underwhelmed by an audition. I suspect we would be surprised if we heard a tip top setup at each level and then worked out our own route to where we want to get to. There is no substitute for hearing with ones own ears. Dealers don't have the cash to keep the kind of demo facility suggested. We suffer upgradeitis because we simple don't get the best from what we have. It's not simple.

Filipe posted:

WilcoFT posted:

It's a shame one is not told at the beginning that you don't get the true potential of your boxes until you put the full SL loom in including speaker cables. I think if Naim had a number of well setup rooms at Salisbury where you could hear what each level of system can sound like with your music we might learn what to expect of our own kit a few months after it arrives.

This forum is the only way to get advice...

Phil

 

I think you've forgotten the role of the dealer in all this.  They should be offering you advice on what to buy, run in, etc.  That's not to minimize the excellent advice and support on this forum.

And, forgive me, but is it not obvious that if Naim sell expensive additional cables (ie not included with the source) that they think that is the best way to get the best sound.   The website even says as much:  "During the development of Statement, our flagship amplification system, our engineers realised that they would need to design a whole new range of high-performance cables for it to reach its true potential."

Jeff

There are threads where people discuss cables such as the current one on whether the 282 is the starting point for Superlumina. Much of this forum is about how to improve SQ. The current 552 thread has one person remarking that he was underwhelmed by an audition. I suspect we would be surprised if we heard a tip top setup at each level and then worked out our own route to where we want to get to. There is no substitute for hearing with ones own ears. Dealers don't have the cash to keep the kind of demo facility suggested. We suffer upgradeitis because we simple don't get the best from what we have. It's not simple.

I agree about one's own ears.  I also agree that hearing all the systems together would be fantastic.  My point was simply that I think that the existence of better cables etc. should at least hint at the possibility that there are better options out there, that's all.  I agree that it isn't simple. 

Nailed it! To create the many alternate levels of Naim products at work would only be something the manufacturer could accomplish . I would certainly hop on a plane to experience and audition .

zoot posted:

Nailed it! To create the many alternate levels of Naim products at work would only be something the manufacturer could accomplish . I would certainly hop on a plane to experience and audition .

The nearest I can get to it is a factory tour on 17 November organised by my dealer with up to 22 people. Why don't other like this to show interest. Hopefully one can listen to one of their high end systems. Might take some vinyl and a CD.

Phil

At the Bristol HiFi show a couple of years ago Naim  did a demo something like what you are looking for. They went from entry level to 500 series in a series of steps playing the same track twice before and after the upgrade. From memory power amps went through 200 250 250DR 300 500. Streamer 272 NDX NDS. The also went from Sopra 1 to Sopra 2. Unfortunately the Super Lumina cable demo failed as the one they tried buzzed very loudly and they didn't have a spare. Equally sadly for me by far the biggest jump was the change of speakers. Both my wife and I did not hear any significant difference in any of the other changes although we did only ever hear the same track on one step . They did not demo 200 going to 500 as there was not that much time and they were trying to demonstrate the steady improvement you got going up the hierarchy but for us this was a failure. We would have gone for the basic streamer, 250 (not DR) and Sopra 2.

CJ

CJ,

I think my ears work like yours  - over the years I have upgraded infrequently but looked to make significant changes. I just don't get much satisfaction spending a chunk of money on subtle improvements unless I'm fixing something that just isn't working right in the room. Other people seem to get much more enjoyment out of subtle improvements or at least improvements that seem subtle to me!

It must be very difficult for Naim to get their equipment working optimally at shows or even dealer demos. Hence my earlier suggestion of visiting them. I'm booked on a factory tour now and hope it includes a demo. 

Earlier in this thread I made the observation that unless one can hear ones own music played on a system that is optimised then one cannot know whether ones own system is working at its best. The changes that each improvement (box or Super Lumina cable) makes are easy to hear once dedicated supply, racking, power cords and cable dressing are sorted. 

JedT posted:

CJ,

I think my ears work like yours  - over the years I have upgraded infrequently but looked to make significant changes. I just don't get much satisfaction spending a chunk of money on subtle improvements unless I'm fixing something that just isn't working right in the room. Other people seem to get much more enjoyment out of subtle improvements or at least improvements that seem subtle to me!

 

 

I am also in this camp, and it is good because upgraditis doesn't bite often, and there's no constant niggling feeling that I'm missing something. That said, my switch to streaming ended up with various changes as I learnt more about it being a completely new to me, and for software/usability reasons (Audirvana not Naim in my case) I think I may well have one or two changes to come with my source before I am content that it is done for the long term.

a

Filipe posted:

It must be very difficult for Naim to get their equipment working optimally at shows or even dealer demos. Hence my earlier suggestion of visiting them. I'm booked on a factory tour now and hope it includes a demo. 

Earlier in this thread I made the observation that unless one can hear ones own music played on a system that is optimised then one cannot know whether ones own system is working at its best. The changes that each improvement (box or Super Lumina cable) makes are easy to hear once dedicated supply, racking, power cords and cable dressing are sorted. 

 

A visit to the Naim factory is very enjoyable, nit just for the ability to listen to the equipment but also to see that manufacturing processes. It also gives you an insight into the rational behind their product development and to hear at least some of the very good kit.

As for the ability to differentiate between the various products as the price levels go up exponentially, I'm afraid I have yet to convince myself that I can make the price jump and audible difference between, say, the 300 and 500 products. I was also at the Bristol HiFi Show when Naim demonstrated the difference between the ranges and, at that time, the difference between the newly announced DR products. i believe that I felt there was a very marked advance between the 300 and the 300DR, but that was it. 

As for cables, I had my sons with me at this year's show and forced them to sit through a cable demo from one of our more famous manufacturers, not Naim. Both are endowed with good hearing, much better than mine, but they still have me in stitches at their efforts to find the Emperor's new clothes and their incredulity at how a  pair of speaker cables could go from £25 a metre to thousands of pounds with no provable benefit to both their sets of ears. Still, once you start dabbling in this game... If I could escape the tyranny of school fees I would have spent quite a few thousands of pounds by now on speakers my wife claims I do not need 

The important thing is to be happy with ones system and enjoy the music. Streaming Apps and ones hardware are both frustrating at times.

It took me quite a while to get my streaming setup working properly. We used an Asus router for awhile and it was always having problems, so we swapped to an AirPort Extreme and a really good pro grade switch and it's been rock solid. Streaming does take a bit of effort to start with, but once set up it should just work. Well, that's what mine does anyway. 

As to the other theme that has emerged in the thread, I think it would be a really bad idea for Naim to set up rooms with various systems to compare. As you went from bottom to top it would obviously get better, but there would be no time to determine meaningful differences. Then there would be the issue of the speakers, which would doubtless mean Focal, which would suit some and not others. The dealers get a substantial margin, and for that are expected to work with customers to meet their requirements. 

A trip to the Naim factory is very interesting, though the demo at the end is just a bit of fun. You can hardly make any decision based on quick swaps between tracks. The last time I was there I listened to the S800 with three 500s, but it was with unfamiliar music and so loud that it was more like being at a concert, with a singer who sounded like he was about 50 feet tall. 

Resurrection posted:

As for cables, I had my sons with me at this year's show and forced them to sit through a cable demo from one of our more famous manufacturers, not Naim. Both are endowed with good hearing, much better than mine, but they still have me in stitches at their efforts to find the Emperor's new clothes and their incredulity at how a  pair of speaker cables could go from £25 a metre to thousands of pounds with no provable benefit to both their sets of ears.

I was looking back at the discussion here when superlumina was launched. I really understand why Naim launched the products from a commercial point of view and I'm willing to accept that some people with high end kit and very practiced ears can get worthwhile improvements from it.

That said, I've always found cable changes VERY hard to appreciate. For those of us in that camp (with that limitation?) one of the nice things about Naim was that you never had that sneaking suspicion that your underinvestment in cables was costing you listening pleasure - you just used the stock Naim kit and happily parked the issue. Superlumina has removed that comfort blanket! 

Don't get me wrong - I'll never spend £ks on cabling even if I get a big windfall. I'm just not the target market. But the fact it even exists is a minor irritation  I'm being honest but also lighthearted - all power to the people who are getting a lot of pleasure out of their cable investments. Their money and their ears rightly trump my feelings!

I never thought for one second that I'd be buying £300 per metre speaker cable - it simply seemed 'not for me'. Then I tried SL and was converted. Even in my middling system I believe they represent good value. And next to Chord's Music cables they are positively bargain basement. Luckily I only need three wires though. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I never thought for one second that I'd be buying £300 per metre speaker cable - it simply seemed 'not for me'. Then I tried SL and was converted. Even in my middling system I believe they represent good value. And next to Chord's Music cables they are positively bargain basement. Luckily I only need three wires though. 

Quite agree. Only missing links for me is the DIN to XLR which Naim have loaned my dealer. I am the third customer and apparently it is run-in nicely.

Phil

very profitable part of audio  . all cables   cant disprove subjectivity.