Best TT?

surely not this thread from someone who owns a chord Dave 

Why not? I'm not seeking to get one, but I like to kwow and understand things, and some of the things said on a couple of recent threads piqued my curiosity. 

This thread is an arena to air some of those things but perhaps hopefully in a more dispassionate manner and without disparaging others' decisions, maybe indeed bringing understanding of different peoples' views... (ever the optimist )

Seeking advice on the best TT is akin to asking about a good wife.   It depends upon the performance you are seeking and what you are willing to pay.  They come in all shapes and forms.   

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Seeking advice on the best TT is akin to asking about a good wife.   It depends upon the performance you are seeking and what you are willing to pay.  They come in all shapes and forms.   

Not sure I should explore the second sentence...

Amps also come in all performances, shapes and forms (and costs, but I'm ignoring that), however a majority (I guess) on this forum choose Naim, and whilst there are characteristics of each that may endear certain models to some people more than others,  I guess there's likely to be a general concensus as to which Naim amp sounds best. Is that true of TTs? And if not why not - what makes the difference? In my ignorance I had been labouring under the impression that the LP12 generally reigned supreme, and had assumed that any differences between it and serious challengers would be small, but that is certainly not the impression given by some recent posts on this forum.

Hence my question...

In the spirit of the OP, I'll give my memories of my turntable buying experiences and what I remember of the sound. My first high end deck would have been in the '80s, into  Nait/Wharfedale Shelton XP2s. I auditioned  the LP12/(the current Linn affordable arm (Asak maybe), K9 and the brand new Roksan Xerxes/RB300/K9.  They were both very musical. I'd have been happy with either, both offered great musical enjoyment and PRAT. I felt the Linn was a bit fuller (accurately) in the lower end, but lacked the control and pace that the Roxsan offered, and decided my preference was for the Roxsan. Later Derek at Sound Org showed me the new Artemis/Shiraz, they took the sound to a whole new level, adding richness, high end controlsound stage, so about a year later I bought them (£350 each as I remember). I then added an Artaxerxes (built in t the deck) cartridge amp, which kept the same sound, but tightened it up.  A few years later, the TMS came along, I listened to that with my Artemis/Shiraz/Artaxerxes and a LP12/Ittok/can't remember cartridge comparison. I'd need to check dates, but the amp by now was probably 72/Hicap/135s into Epos ES14s. This time it was even starker than the previous comparison, the Linn was excellent, but the Roksan blew it away for my taste. It was more clinical, had amazing PRAT, still leaner in the bass, but with the TMS I now felt that was more accurate than the Linn. I loved what the Linn did, it soundstaged better, it was probably sweeter at the top-end, but for me it lacked the ruthless accuracy and drive of the TMS, I could easily see how someone else might love the Linn more for exactly the same differences. 

When people talk about superdecks the Roksan is often overlooked I think, the TMS (mine rebuilt by Touraj in about 2009 to near TMS3 spec) is stunning, clinical, rhythmic, fine soundstage, drags me into the music and holds me there, maybe a bit leaner in sound than other decks, but it sounds and feels right to me.

As a then Linn owner in the early 1990s, I remember hearing a Pink Triangle Aniversary with Aro and Troika into some Naims at Mike Manning Audio. The speed and fluidity was such that I spent the next ten years or so with a couple of PTs. In truth, I never did match the Anniversary experience because the Pinks I owned were somewhat lesser.

Never heard a Roksan though I know the Cornflakes on Tottenham Court Rd did them, with Naims.

Eoink posted:

In the spirit of the OP, I'll give my memories of my turntable buying experiences and what I remember of the sound. My first high end deck would have been in the '80s, into  Nait/Wharfedale Shelton XP2s. I auditioned  the LP12/(the current Linn affordable arm (Asak maybe), K9 and the brand new Roksan Xerxes/RB300/K9.  They were both very musical. I'd have been happy with either, both offered great musical enjoyment and PRAT. I felt the Linn was a bit fuller (accurately) in the lower end, but lacked the control and pace that the Roxsan offered, and decided my preference was for the Roxsan. Later Derek at Sound Org showed me the new Artemis/Shiraz, they took the sound to a whole new level, adding richness, high end controlsound stage, so about a year later I bought them (£350 each as I remember). I then added an Artaxerxes (built in t the deck) cartridge amp, which kept the same sound, but tightened it up.  A few years later, the TMS came along, I listened to that with my Artemis/Shiraz/Artaxerxes and a LP12/Ittok/can't remember cartridge comparison. I'd need to check dates, but the amp by now was probably 72/Hicap/135s into Epos ES14s. This time it was even starker than the previous comparison, the Linn was excellent, but the Roksan blew it away for my taste. It was more clinical, had amazing PRAT, still leaner in the bass, but with the TMS I now felt that was more accurate than the Linn. I loved what the Linn did, it soundstaged better, it was probably sweeter at the top-end, but for me it lacked the ruthless accuracy and drive of the TMS, I could easily see how someone else might love the Linn more for exactly the same differences. 

When people talk about superdecks the Roksan is often overlooked I think, the TMS (mine rebuilt by Touraj in about 2009 to near TMS3 spec) is stunning, clinical, rhythmic, fine soundstage, drags me into the music and holds me there, maybe a bit leaner in sound than other decks, but it sounds and feels right to me.

why do you find it sounds clinical?  is it really clinical or neutral ?  thanks for claryfing if possible...

what i can say briefly on efficiency on turntables : 

- the speed must be accurate and constant : so here the quality of the motor and power supply is important.  

- the second very important aspect is immunity to external and internal vibrations :  good decoupling, sub chassis, rigidity and mass, density, are some necessary factors.

- the quality and precision of the arm, which also must be very immune to vibrations.

- in general, the best turntables are high mass and the most effort of the engineering resides in immunity from vibrations ;  the stylus must drag in a total silent environment.

The problem with high mass is also that it can give not the best prat and involvement...so sometimes there are several motors or platters on magnetic levitation or air levitation....

For myself i had rega p25, then rega p9, clearaudio master reference for a time, and sme20/ sme 5 turntable with kiseki blue ns cartridge. The phono is the ear yoshino 912.

I forgot to say that the phono preamp is also one of the most important aspects, even more important than the cartridge. It is for my experience : i had several phono preamps in the past: rega, naim stageline / hicap, tom evans microgroove, conrad johnson ev1. 

as for sound quality comparison, i could in the past compare the linn lp12/ ekos / lingo vs rega p9/ rib 1000 with cartridges of approximate same price. For me the sound was nearly the same, the linn had a little better bass but i found the rega airier and more fluent a bit.

The clearaudio master reference, more expensive, with an arm of the level of the rega rb 1000, at that time ( 10 years ago), was better on most aspects vs these two. But i found the sound a little cold and dry.

I had the opportunity to buy a demo sme20/sme 5 turntable / arm, and i was fascinated by the level of quality of the engineering.  The cartridge at that time was a van den hull frog, i had this cartridge on the rega p9 before.

The difference is sound quality vs the rega p9 was immediate. I could not believe that the upgrade would be so important : the soundstage was a lot more organized first: better separation of the instruments, everything was at his right place.  All was more calm also, not less dynamic, but more effortless and easy, like less rush and chaos...

The instruments and voices had more body, more focus, and the macro and micro dynamics much better: the signification of the track, the sense of the players....were more tangible.

It was really a big upgrade.  

10 years ago, the sme20/ sme 5 was around 10k, and the rega p9 around 4k, so the difference is also significative. But the linn lp12/ ekos / lingo was also near 10k.

At that time, i heard also the Verdier la platine turntable, with a very big platter and magnetic decoupling, with sme312 arm: the bass and the body of instruments were perhaps a little better than my sme, but not the soundstaging and prat.

I heard also the avid acutus sp reference, but not on the same system. I found the sound fantastic, for the superb bass , body and focus, but also involvement and dynamics. Better than the sme20 i think.

The probably best turntable i heard, but difficult here to explain, was the audio note tt3 reference ( 50k) , with 3 motors, 3 massive power supply, magnetic levitation....on a full audionote system( with around 15 k electronics and 6k loudspeakers): very impressive and so much natural presence. Difficult to explain, but a big step vs mine turntable i felt.

French Rooster posted:

Eoink posted:

SNIPPED

When people talk about superdecks the Roksan is often overlooked I think, the TMS (mine rebuilt by Touraj in about 2009 to near TMS3 spec) is stunning, clinical, rhythmic, fine soundstage, drags me into the music and holds me there, maybe a bit leaner in sound than other decks, but it sounds and feels right to me.

why do you find it sounds clinical?  is it really clinical or neutral ?  thanks for claryfing if possible...

Neutral might be a better word than clinical, I was trying  to describe 2 different things in one word and possibly chose a misleading one. I find the Roksans neutral tonally, others might describe them as slightly lean depending on the presentation they prefer. They're also very tight and accurate with timing, conveying a very clear sense of pace and rhythm. As you can probably tell from the fact I had a Xerxes and still use my TMS, I find the Roksans drag me into the music and I love listening to music on them.

the thing i don't understand that there are many turntable that the PRAT is very good, far better then LP12.... closer to Naim sound if i dare to say..

still LP12 is the most popular make among UK Naim users....

isn't it a contradiction ? or is it an equilibrium ? 

Emre, it's all an opinion.  There's no "right" or "wrong" here, just what's right or wrong for you.

I can easily hear why so many love the performance of a well set-up LP12 (in any form).  It's why I still have more than one even though my main turntable is an ancient Garrard.  The Garrard isn't "better" or "worse" overall than any other deck in my opinion.  But I do love it, and it performs really well - it does the engagement thing very well, and it's a bit of a classic piece, so it's the deck I choose to use most day to day.

Richard Dane posted:

I can easily hear why so many love the performance of a well set-up LP12 (in any form).  It's why I still have more than one even though my main turntable is an ancient Garrard.  The Garrard isn't "better" or "worse" overall than any other deck in my opinion.  But I do love it, and it performs really well - it does the engagement thing very well, and it's a bit of a classic piece, so it's the deck I choose to use most day to day.

In my system a circa 1961 Garrard 301 in a Loricraft skeletal plinth with a Rega RB202 and Denon DL110 has recently displaced a Michell Orbe SE / SME Series V / Lyra Delos. The Orbe's sitting in its box in the spare room, so I could plug it back in whenever I want, but I've not yet felt the desire to do so. Truthful or not, the 301 has a "voom!" to it that I also hear in live music.

I compared a Nottingham Analogue Dais to an SME 20/3 a couple of years ago, and bought the Dais. Then compared a number of arms and ended up with a Reed 3P together with a Lyra Kleos cartridge. I was not prepared to spend more than £10k at the time. If I wanted something better I would listen to the Brinkmann and the AMG V12, maybe the TW Raven.

Slink, interesting post as I too chose the Xerxes in the late 80's against the LP12. I couldn't get on with that bass bloom.

Last year I was in the market for a new TT and had no hesitation in choosing the Linn. Post Cirkus it's faults in my view have disappeared. The Roksan was lovely, but after sales service was poor over the time that the company changed hands etc. One reason for choosing the Linn was based on long term care, not just SQ. 

Stu

Dozey posted:

I compared a Nottingham Analogue Dais to an SME 20/3 a couple of years ago, and bought the Dais. Then compared a number of arms and ended up with a Reed 3P together with a Lyra Kleos cartridge. I was not prepared to spend more than £10k at the time. If I wanted something better I would listen to the Brinkmann and the AMG V12, maybe the TW Raven.

the dais is very good, i heard it at a dealer place with asr electronics. The presentation vs the sme20/3 is different, more kind and gentle i found, more delicate. But i would not say it is better...you seem to prefer it.   I appreciated the look of the dais, clever and nice design.

Dozey posted:

I compared a Nottingham Analogue Dais to an SME 20/3 a couple of years ago, and bought the Dais. Then compared a number of arms and ended up with a Reed 3P together with a Lyra Kleos cartridge. I was not prepared to spend more than £10k at the time. If I wanted something better I would listen to the Brinkmann and the AMG V12, maybe the TW Raven.

i see on your profile the tron 7 phono stage. I am interested by it but not in France. Is it very quiet( tubes)? dynamic too?

Dozey posted:

I compared a Nottingham Analogue Dais to an SME 20/3 a couple of years ago, and bought the Dais. Then compared a number of arms and ended up with a Reed 3P together with a Lyra Kleos cartridge. I was not prepared to spend more than £10k at the time. If I wanted something better I would listen to the Brinkmann and the AMG V12, maybe the TW Raven.

i want also to add that , like you, i was very interested by the brinkman balance, tw acoustic raven ac, and avid acutus sp reference : these are around 16k combos with arm, and i think a little better than sme20/3.  The raven ac would be my choice certainly. But at that time i could afford the sme20/2a model demo for a very good price....Other aspect i appreciate with the sme is its compactness : it weighs 50 pounds ( 25 kg), but it is the same size as an lp12

The raven, brinkman, avid take much more space....

Hi Rooster. I chose the Dais because it moved me to tears whereas the SME didn't. The SME seemed slightly leaner overall, but the articulation of classical strings with the SME seemed clearer.

The TRON 7 reference is indeed a very quiet phono stage - but the output of the Kleos is not low. I upgraded from an EAR 834 which is another fine valve phono stage, but does not go as low or have quite the same grip in the bass. Also more dynamic - e.g. acoustic guitar can make me jump! I managed to get a second hand TRON, which saved me quite a lot of money!

hi dozey,

i am a bit surprised that you found the sme20/3 leaner, but perhaps it is the case vs the dais. However on my set up, with kiseki blue ns and lyra delos before, with ear 912 ( ear 88pb phono inside, a big step vs 834), i have a very articulate sound, with body on instruments and very good prat. It is just difficult to set up the sme correctly and the sound can vary....

The cartridge sometimes may work better on some turntable vs another.  For a lean sound, the rega p10 is on this category i feel, vs sme, brinkman or raven or dais.

In the past, if i could find a good price for the raven ac or avid acutus reference, i would take them over the sme20....but today i am happy with it and don't feel the desire to upgrade : i am more listening to my nds, the turntable is only on some occasions....

The value for money factor for me is very important. I'm much more pleased with my cheap AT LP5 direct drive (400 euro) with AT VM 540 ML mm cart (260 euro) and Stageline N/I Supply which performs far better than expected, than i was with a much more expensive Rega (P7)RP6/Exact, Linn LP12/Adikt. 

Emre posted:

the thing i don't understand that there are many turntable that the PRAT is very good, far better then LP12.... closer to Naim sound if i dare to say..

still LP12 is the most popular make among UK Naim users....

isn't it a contradiction ? or is it an equilibrium ? 

in audio history, naim and linn are very close, like chord.  It can be the first reason.  The second is perhaps the difficulty to find high end turntables at local dealers, the turntables are not the most important market today.  In Paris, you can find linn, rega, clearaudio mostly, or thales now. One dealer have the nottingham and one the avid . No possibility to hear sme, kronos, brinkman or raven.

Some dealers have vpi, because like linn, it is easier to make money with them:  add keel, urika, trampoline...for linn and sds controller, better vpi arm, better platter...for vpi.  It is a good business.

A lot of shout outs  were done by different analog specialists, like jason kennedy ( he have both rega p10 and sme20/3 at home) , michael Fremer or Jonathan Valin...vs the best turntables today. I read a lot and choosed the sme 10 years ago.  From what i read and heard, the full lp12 can't compete with nowadays 15k turntables. But i will not fight to prove it, there is a lot to find on the net on this subject.

Turntables are a matter of constraints: budget, skill, distance, complexity.   They can all sound great when well l set up.    Rega can be bought cheap, set up remotely and shipped.   That was important to me for 20 years.   I never seriously considered a Linn because the nearest dealer is 300-400 miles away.  Nice table though.  I bought a demo Verdier which I have been very happy with.  The dealer travels to me to set up because it is unwieldy to ship in multiple boxes.    You can be happy with any of these long term.  The nicest Rega you can afford  is a good place to start.   

Skip,

Peter of Cymbiosis is known to fly all corners of the earth to attend and set up LP12s for his well regarded customers. I am sure he will be able to accommodate you and the travel distance in his diary and sort you out a bespoken deck. 

Tony2011 posted:

Skip,

Peter of Cymbiosis is known to fly all corners of the earth to attend and set up LP12s for his well regarded customers. I am sure he will be able to accommodate you and the travel distance in his diary and sort you out a bespoken deck. 

but now Skip has a wonderful turntable...Verdier la platine is a marvel, more than 100 pounds deck, with a magnetic suspended platter. The sound is among the best turntables around, except of course megabucks >100 k decks as continuum caliburn, clearaudio statement or walker proscenium...but who can afford that?.....