Best TT?
Posted by: Innocent Bystander on 20 July 2017
TT as in Turntable not DAC!
This is NOT a vinyl vs CD or digital vs analogue thread, nor is it a "my TT and/or its engineering is bigger/cleverer/more expensive than yours" thread.
What I am seeking to explore here is characteristics of turntables, which includes what turntable is best - obviously to the individual and in the system(s) within which you have heard them. But to be meaningful it t is necessary to identify what each TT has been compared with, and importantly, what in the sound makes you reach that conclusion (e.g. Resolution, clarity, timing, accuracy, bassiness, smoothness etc etc - even, if you want, PRaT, boogie factor and even inky blackness!)
With some turntables, such as LP12, clearly the iteration of modifications and add-ons is important. And as the arm and cartridge inevitably play apart, identification of them as well, please, except perhaps where the same arm and cartridge were used for the comparison, though that would be good to confirm.
This thread is purely for interest - and unfortunately I cannot offer anything useful myself - my second TT which I had until just a few years ago was a Thorens TD150 which I had had for about 40 years, just changing the original arm to an RB300 along the way, and multiple cartridges, the last IIRC having been an ATF7 MC: I never compared directly with any other apart from the dreadfully rumbly idler-wheel SP25 it had replaced back in 1971). It sounded good to me but I felt it reached its limitation with the quality of records (surface noise, which I now, belatedly, suspect may have been partly due to inadequate cleaning). The only comparative basis I have for the sound is with CD, most recently a Shearne Audio Phase 7, all through Musical Fidelity the Preamp 2A, MF P170 power amp and IMF RSPM speakers, when I think the differences I was hearing were primarily due to the different media.
I have listened to an LP12 Ittock (I think) with same ATF7 MC cartridge, but that was in a different room, with MF MVT preamp, Audiolab 8000 power amp and IMF TLS 50 II speakers, so no real means of comparing the two turntables.
If you're looking for something to buy put in your system and not have to be faffed with 'tinkering' then I can highly recommend the Rega RP10. Bags of PRAT, super low noise floor (aided by a good Phono Stage of course) and detail retrieval that still has me hearing things in LPs I've had years.
Different record mats can be an improvement. The white felt mat from dnm was just that on my LP 12 and a carbon mat made a huge difference on a table I can no longer remember. Having said that, both of these tables were intended to be used with mats. The dps comes without one but with a clamp to prevent the record from slipping on the platter during playback. A mat would undermine that, so I have never tried any. If you have a flexible one at hand, just give it a try. You may like the result. I would stay away from solid ones, as the dps' platter is slightly concave.
The Strat (Fender) posted:Seeking advice on the best TT is akin to asking about a good wife. It depends upon the performance you are seeking and what you are willing to pay. They come in all shapes and forms.
I never pay my wife for a 'performance'.... But I agree on the last sentence.
Max_B posted:The Strat (Fender) posted:Seeking advice on the best TT is akin to asking about a good wife. It depends upon the performance you are seeking and what you are willing to pay. They come in all shapes and forms.
I never pay my wife for a 'performance'.... But I agree on the last sentence.
wives come in all shapes and forms ? the last sentence...
If you pursue the wife analogy there can be no best, only the best for you.
Turntables are cheaper to get wrong.
from all these comments by members, from me too, it seems that a turntable is perhaps like a wife: it is a personal choice, not so objective, and we don't like that other people can criticize our turntable. So perhaps the best turntable is the turntable we love, not the most accurate or dynamic, but more a personal choice, a bit affective.
Even if technical and objective reviews can demonstrate that a clearaudio statement or kronos pro are better than lp12 or rega, rega or linn can be the best if it is our personal preference.
The best turntable is the one you already have, or the minimal upgrade that will do the job. The sound of new vinyl is not getting better. At the rate digital is improving, it makes no sense any more to chase the grail turntable.
with sony now into the vinyl race and access to lots of music it seems they will be digital 96k masters so its digital my nature.
Skip posted:The best turntable is the one you already have, or the minimal upgrade that will do the job. The sound of new vinyl is not getting better. At the rate digital is improving, it makes no sense any more to chase the grail turntable.
for myself i am not searching a better turntable, i am happy with mine. But for now, for me, my vinyl rig is sounding better, more real, than my nds/555dr fully optimized.
Want to add also for" the sound of vinyl is not getting better": it is not true for me: today we can find better sounding lps reissues vs original, with the help on technical improvements ( gain 2 in mobile fidelity or analogue production remasters). And we have never had so many high end turntables as today : just see high end Munich show....hundreds of high end turntables.
The only problem with vinyl is to find new music to discover.....the limitation is here. The reason why i am listening more to digital too.
French Rooster posted:for myself i am not searching a better turntable, i am happy with mine. But for now, for me, my vinyl rig is sounding better, more real, than my nds/555dr fully optimized.
After serviceing my Bauer TT by a very good dealer (I have had some problems before and was not so happy with it) I now have to report the same about my TT and my nds/555dr. The different characteristics of different albums are more revealed and more authentic demonstrated by my TT. More fun! But as always: our tastes are different and that's good!!
Mr THX posted:If you're looking for something to buy put in your system and not have to be faffed with 'tinkering' then I can highly recommend the Rega RP10. Bags of PRAT, super low noise floor (aided by a good Phono Stage of course) and detail retrieval that still has me hearing things in LPs I've had years.
Quite agree. I use the Rega Aria Phono stage whose noise floor dropped very noticeably when I added an Isotek Optimum power cord. Maybe the shielding helped. I have since added the Super Lumina RCA to DIN IC and wow what a vinyl package.
Phil
The tinkering is part of the fun and leads to the satisfaction of getting it just right, have you got something better to do?
French Rooster posted:Skip posted:The best turntable is the one you already have, or the minimal upgrade that will do the job. The sound of new vinyl is not getting better. At the rate digital is improving, it makes no sense any more to chase the grail turntable.
for myself i am not searching a better turntable, i am happy with mine. But for now, for me, my vinyl rig is sounding better, more real, than my nds/555dr fully optimized.
Want to add also for" the sound of vinyl is not getting better": it is not true for me: today we can find better sounding lps reissues vs original, with the help on technical improvements ( gain 2 in mobile fidelity or analogue production remasters). And we have never had so many high end turntables as today : just see high end Munich show....hundreds of high end turntables.
The only problem with vinyl is to find new music to discover.....the limitation is here. The reason why i am listening more to digital too.
And the cost when you find it. A lot of new issues are in the £20-£25 range (or more for doubles) and box sets verge on the edge of rip off territory. I buy some secondhand stuff from places I trust - but they still cost at least as much as a new CD. I like owning them and still indulge myself from time to time. I have some that sound 'better' (or different at least) to the matching CD but from a pure SQ perspective I don't think vinyl is worth what manufacturers and retailers are asking - in the round. But I can't help myself on occasions.
hey allan,
yes, vinyl good reissues are expensive, you are right. But i have perhaps only 20 ..I mostly buy second hand NM or even M at discogs. Sometimes i pay more than 50GBP for an original lp in near mint condition. But it is very occasionally. For me vinyl is on special occasions, on holidays or weekends.... For most listenings, i use nds. But when i take time to hear a good lp, it is a magical moment !
Alan Willby posted: And the cost when you find it. A lot of new issues are in the £20-£25 range (or more for doubles) and box sets verge on the edge of rip off territory. I buy some secondhand stuff from places I trust - but they still cost at least as much as a new CD. I like owning them and still indulge myself from time to time. I have some that sound 'better' (or different at least) to the matching CD but from a pure SQ perspective I don't think vinyl is worth what manufacturers and retailers are asking - in the round. But I can't help myself on occasions.
If you live near a Oxfam shop whose catchment area includes your kind of music loving people you can pick up very good quality LPs. Visiting my son and family every week I visit Oxfam quite regularly. The prices are around £2-5, but Beatles, Sandy Denny, Bob Dylan etc command premium prices.
I would not risk buying on Discogs although I do use it to catalogue my collection. Oxfam will refund if there are too many dust pops. I have a Loricraft PRC4 which with their cleaning solution brings records to life. Generally speaking an expensive cartridge reaches the parts others have not destroyed.
Some say that analogue recordings deserve being played on vinyl and digital from CD or rips. Mono vinyl best on a mono cartridge setup according to the prevailing standard when it was pressed. I would not buy new vinyl as I can play Oxfam CDs with SQ as good as my TT. Ocassionally I buy on Amazon.
Phil
yeti42 posted:The tinkering is part of the fun and leads to the satisfaction of getting it just right, have you got something better to do?
Yes.
Filipe posted:Alan Willby posted: And the cost when you find it. A lot of new issues are in the £20-£25 range (or more for doubles) and box sets verge on the edge of rip off territory. I buy some secondhand stuff from places I trust - but they still cost at least as much as a new CD. I like owning them and still indulge myself from time to time. I have some that sound 'better' (or different at least) to the matching CD but from a pure SQ perspective I don't think vinyl is worth what manufacturers and retailers are asking - in the round. But I can't help myself on occasions.If you live near a Oxfam shop whose catchment area includes your kind of music loving people you can pick up very good quality LPs. Visiting my son and family every week I visit Oxfam quite regularly. The prices are around £2-5, but Beatles, Sandy Denny, Bob Dylan etc command premium prices.
I would not risk buying on Discogs although I do use it to catalogue my collection. Oxfam will refund if there are too many dust pops. I have a Loricraft PRC4 which with their cleaning solution brings records to life. Generally speaking an expensive cartridge reaches the parts others have not destroyed.
Some say that analogue recordings deserve being played on vinyl and digital from CD or rips. Mono vinyl best on a mono cartridge setup according to the prevailing standard when it was pressed. I would not buy new vinyl as I can play Oxfam CDs with SQ as good as my TT. Ocassionally I buy on Amazon.
Phil
vinyl shops are a good thing. I used to buy in London and Paris before, there are many shops. But with discogs, there are so many more choices and i often find Mint original lps still sealed, or near mint ones... In shops, the used ones are often VG+...and the choice is little. With discogs, you buy from all over the world, all vinyl shops...and since 10 years and several hundreds lps bought, i had to return maybe 10/15 lps....and was always refunded.
French Rooster posted:Filipe posted:Alan Willby posted: And the cost when you find it. A lot of new issues are in the £20-£25 range (or more for doubles) and box sets verge on the edge of rip off territory. I buy some secondhand stuff from places I trust - but they still cost at least as much as a new CD. I like owning them and still indulge myself from time to time. I have some that sound 'better' (or different at least) to the matching CD but from a pure SQ perspective I don't think vinyl is worth what manufacturers and retailers are asking - in the round. But I can't help myself on occasions.If you live near a Oxfam shop whose catchment area includes your kind of music loving people you can pick up very good quality LPs. Visiting my son and family every week I visit Oxfam quite regularly. The prices are around £2-5, but Beatles, Sandy Denny, Bob Dylan etc command premium prices.
I would not risk buying on Discogs although I do use it to catalogue my collection. Oxfam will refund if there are too many dust pops. I have a Loricraft PRC4 which with their cleaning solution brings records to life. Generally speaking an expensive cartridge reaches the parts others have not destroyed.
Some say that analogue recordings deserve being played on vinyl and digital from CD or rips. Mono vinyl best on a mono cartridge setup according to the prevailing standard when it was pressed. I would not buy new vinyl as I can play Oxfam CDs with SQ as good as my TT. Ocassionally I buy on Amazon.
Phil
vinyl shops are a good thing. I used to buy in London and Paris before, there are many shops. But with discogs, there are so many more choices and i often find Mint original lps still sealed, or near mint ones... In shops, the used ones are often VG+...and the choice is little. With discogs, you buy from all over the world, all vinyl shops...and since 10 years and several hundreds lps bought, i had to return maybe 10/15 lps....and was always refunded.
I have used Discogs a couple of times and have been pleasantly surprised with the quality. I am lucky to live fairly near to a very good second hand dealer. He is very fussy (deals mainly in Classical and Shows) and cleans and re-sleeves everything before he sells it. The vinyl is always of excellent quality (scratch / blemish wise at least - he cannot sort a poor pressing or lousy recording) though the covers are often a bit dog eared. So that is my first port of call if I feel I need a browsing session. Love getting home with a purchase - particularly if it is something I just chanced upon.
yes Allan, it is very pleasant to walk in a town, stay in a vinyl shop, talk a bit of music, and go home with an lp or two....i do it sometimes and used to do it a lot before. In the past, before internet, i went even from Paris to London to find some good lps. I was doing the same with cds, but now , for cds, the choice is very very poor...a little sad ...
Had me reminiscing this about Saturdays in the 70s. Get up, go to the local record shop browse and buy, but be back for the Alan Freeman show at 15:00 on Radio 1.
Glory days.
Regards,
Lindsay