Shawline vs Sarum Super Array

I have just received a Shawline RCA to Din. I/it seem/s to be suffering from significant hum on both channels. This is my first foray into this level of interconnect. Once the hum has been sorted out I hope to be able to compare it with the Flashback RCA-Din cables I am currently using, though I'm not sure sure my ears and/or brain and/or perception and/or intelligence will allow me to differentiate. Looking forward to trying.

I doubt I'll ever be in a position to legitimately post a comparison with a Sarum  (might as well be Unobtanium).

Would I notice a difference? Probably?

Would I know which I prefer? Possibly. 

Would the engineer in me let me spend £2k on 1m of wire? Absolutely not.

Well, probably not.

Well, possibly.

s.

Maybe the Shawline is already a decent cable at its level. In my mind, the Super Sarum Aray is only fit for the 500 series ie. 552/500, perhaps a lavish indulgence for a 252-based system.

I am always an advocate of "components first". However, after a recent experience with some aftermarket cables I have come to a conclusion that the separate systems 282/250DR and above require better cables to show their full potential. The standard Naim cables (SNAIC between pre/PSU and DIN-XLR between PSU/power amp) seem to be the bottleneck of the separates system.

For an integrated amp such as the Supernait you won't need these additional aftermarket cables.

Hi Adam,
Interesting observation. I compared Epic RCA against shawline DIN, experienced a rather big improvement, maybe slightly brighter sound with Epic. However, maybe not quite fair comparison, DIN/ RCA. 

The Shawline is tremendous value for money, I've never felt the need to upgrade it.

In order to really get the benefits of DIN, both ends should still be terminated with DIN..or is Shawline DIN to RCA an acceptable alternative when using non-Naim sources?

Interesting indeed. You get more music and more openess with Sarum. But for me Shawline is sounds fine too for my system. Actually I find it a bit too matter of fact. 

Shawline to Epic would be interesting.

Odyssey to Epic was, well... epic! I found this reallt enhanced the music. The interconnect not so much.

I am also using Chord Epic speaker cables with Signature links. The Signature links were just recently added last week. I am not sure whether it's the full loom Chord Signature Tuned Aray interconnects (3 cables) or the Signature links that (greatly) transformed the sound. Two STA interconnects were also added to the system last week together with the Signature links. Although it may be a combined result, my suspicion is the STA interconnects brought a major contribution to the improvement in sound quality.

I will swap the Signature links to the stock metal links sometime next week just to see if there's any difference.

Simon C posted:

I have just received a Shawline RCA to Din. I/it seem/s to be suffering from significant hum on both channels. This is my first foray into this level of interconnect. Once the hum has been sorted out I hope to be able to compare it with the Flashback RCA-Din cables I am currently using, though I'm not sure sure my ears and/or brain and/or perception and/or intelligence will allow me to differentiate. Looking forward to trying.

I doubt I'll ever be in a position to legitimately post a comparison with a Sarum  (might as well be Unobtanium).

Would I notice a difference? Probably?

Would I know which I prefer? Possibly. 

Would the engineer in me let me spend £2k on 1m of wire? Absolutely not.

Well, probably not.

Well, possibly.

s.

I upgraded the Flashback RCA to DIN to the Chord Signature TA RCA to DIN last year. There was a difference but it was subtle. Appreciable but no earth shattering difference.

I added two more Chord Signature TA between the pre/PSU and PSU/power last week and the difference was major.

I would not recommend spending a lot on interconnects especially the one that goes between the source and preamp. I found a full loom to be particularly beneficial. Perhaps the cables between the amps (pre, PSU and power) are more critical than the one between the source-preamp.

I have not tried the WitchHat but read some good things on these. Perhaps these cheaper alternatives are as good as the costlier options from the likes of Chord Signature or Sarum etc.

Ryder,
Interesting. I also think about getting Signature links with my Epic cables so comparing back and forth with stock rails would be appreciated.
Do you use DIN-RCA Signature interconnects and have you compared to RCA-RCA?

M37,

I will report on the differences once I managed to compare the Chord Signature links with the stock metal ones that came with the speakers. I would try not to do it too frequently as the Signature links are quite stiff. The banana connections are very tight, and I have to use quite a bit of force to pull the bananas out from the speaker terminals. It's the same when pushing the bananas into the terminals.

I did try several configurations when I installed the Signature links. I tried running the Chord Epic to the top and bottom terminals and in the end settled with Chord's recommended diagonal connection (black goes to the bass, red goes to the treble). The sound appears to be most coherent with diagonal.

My Chord Signature Tuned Aray interconnect is RCA to DIN. Since my NAC 282 accepts DIN, it makes sense to go with RCA-DIN. I have previously compared a premium and costly RCA-RCA interconnect to the cheap Flashback RCA-DIN. The Flashback sounds better, more open and transparent. I am not sure if the RCA-DIN will sound better than the RCA-RCA if the same type of interconnect is used.

Very interesting. I have also tried different connections with my speaker which has three sets of terminals. When I connect to mid, bass and voices appear more clearly and easier to follow but the sound becomes more two dimensional.
I also use the recommended diagonal connection and although the sound is more three-dimensional, I still feel it's a tradeoff. 
At the moment, I'm not completely satisfied. The next step will be to compare different  interconnects.  However, I will keep your advice in mind regarding interconnects.

the only expensive chord cables it bought were signature   2x 2M  IS WHEN I WENT BALANCED .this combination made a clear improvement.  is naim going to rca it seems so on the new range

ThatsNotMyNaim,
Have you decided to settle for Shawline or are you considering trying other interconnects with SN2?

ryder. posted:

Maybe the Shawline is already a decent cable at its level. In my mind, the Super Sarum Aray is only fit for the 500 series ie. 552/500, perhaps a lavish indulgence for a 252-based system.

I am always an advocate of "components first". However, after a recent experience with some aftermarket cables I have come to a conclusion that the separate systems 282/250DR and above require better cables to show their full potential. The standard Naim cables (SNAIC between pre/PSU and DIN-XLR between PSU/power amp) seem to be the bottleneck of the separates system.

For an integrated amp such as the Supernait you won't need these additional aftermarket cables.

Nonsense! There will always be some kind of synergy that comes into play regardless of what level Naim system you have when it comes to cables.

To say that everything below a 282/ 250 system will not benefit from better cables is ridiculous. Just like more expensive amps, lesser amps also can show their full potential with better cables!

Your comment about the SN is also an assumption, and by the way totally misinformed. As a matter of fact, both comments are utterly wrong and ridiculous.

I have heard the Naim standard cables in 500 systems, and they never disappoint,  when compared to high dollar Chord alternatives, they definitely hold their own, and may have better synergy, and may even be more compatible with the more expensive amps. After all, these amps were designed, minus the Statement series, to sound the way they do using Naca5 and the standard interconnect. Change the cables, and you change the intended sound.

I do agree with what you're saying Badlands, but the DIN/XLR interconnect from the power supply to a NAP250/300/500 is quite poor and is made of unshielded mains cable.

I can't comment on chord, but I purchased a vertere DIN/XLR and it makes the old cable sound dull and lifeless. I would argue some of the standard cables are not allowing me to hear all of what I paid for when I purchased my NAP 250 DR. I would also state the Superlumina speaker cable opens up resolution in way that NACA 5 just cannot, and I am not hearing the capability of my 250DR with NACA5.

I'm somewhat surprised Naim still ship their premium amps with such a poor cable.

Ryder has both 282/250DR and also 202/200 so maybe he has some experience and can only report what he hears with both his amps? Why be so critical of his experiences, as far as I'm concerned his experience with Chord cables is a valuable report to the Naim community.

badlands posted:

ryder. posted:

Maybe the Shawline is already a decent cable at its level. In my mind, the Super Sarum Aray is only fit for the 500 series ie. 552/500, perhaps a lavish indulgence for a 252-based system.

I am always an advocate of "components first". However, after a recent experience with some aftermarket cables I have come to a conclusion that the separate systems 282/250DR and above require better cables to show their full potential. The standard Naim cables (SNAIC between pre/PSU and DIN-XLR between PSU/power amp) seem to be the bottleneck of the separates system.

For an integrated amp such as the Supernait you won't need these additional aftermarket cables.

Nonsense! There will always be some kind of synergy that comes into play regardless of what level Naim system you have when it comes to cables.

To say that everything below a 282/ 250 system will not benefit from better cables is ridiculous. Just like more expensive amps, lesser amps also can show their full potential with better cables!

Your comment about the SN is also an assumption, and by the way totally misinformed. As a matter of fact, both comments are utterly wrong and ridiculous.

I have heard the Naim standard cables in 500 systems, and they never disappoint,  when compared to high dollar Chord alternatives, they definitely hold their own, and may have better synergy, and may even be more compatible with the more expensive amps. After all, these amps were designed, minus the Statement series, to sound the way they do using Naca5 and the standard interconnect. Change the cables, and you change the intended sound.

Before you call my post nonsense, you ought to read more carefully. In your second paragraph, where did you read about me mentioning everything below 282/250 will not benefit from better cables? That is assumption on your part. 

In your third paragraph stating my comment as ridiculous, I wonder what was in your mind. I was referring to the cables that connect between the pre/power/psu boxes. You can't connect these cables to the SN as it is an integrated. 

In your last paragraph, it is subjective and a different scenario. Yes, perhaps the 500 series do not need aftermarket cables. In my system, the standard Naim cables made my system sound dull and rolled off in the treble.

Analog, I have no problems with people disagreeing with my impressions but in this case I was a bit surprised Badlands came out with all guns firing but was actually doing assumptions and misinterpreting my posts before calling them ridiculous and nonsense.

analogmusic posted:.

Ryder has both 282/250DR and also 202/200 so maybe he has some experience and can only report what he hears with both his amps?

 

So have I owned both sets of amps, and quite a bit more Naim amps as a matter of fact through the years of ownership, I don't proclaim to be an expert on the subject, but I have compared SL, Chord, Atlas, Nordost and a host of other cables to the standard cables, and honestly I don't hear the differences so clearly as you do. Presentations change slightly, but not to the levels that are expressed in some posts.  In blind listening tests between cables, including SL cables, nobody was able to identify which cable was playing 100% of the time, so either my hearing is just not as sensitive as yours, which is very possible, but what of the others who also participated in these tests, is their hearing also not quite up to your level of hearing expertise? Possible? Yes, but somewhat doubtful.

I'd be willing to bet that self justification has a lot to do with the perceived differences that you are clearly hearing. Look, everybody hears things differently, and I get that, and to some those differences are worth the price of admission, personally I have never experienced those kind of differences in cables that would warrant me spending the 20 times difference in price. Speakers, amps, cartridges, yes, but not in cables. To say that the standard provided Naim cables are of poor quality and make the amps sound dull and lifeless is just not what I have experienced with those cables, sorry.

As for my assumptions to Ryders posts, if I misunderstood what you were saying, than I apologize for the mistake, that's the problem with forums, how one interprets others replies and not being able to communicate face to face can be misleading and  unfairly judged. Ryder, I hope no hard feelings, as I respect what you say....................Most of the time!!!

I don't own any Superlumina cables Badlands, so I've got nothing to justify. 

in the case of NACA5 vs SL, we were 3 in the room, and we clearly heard how much better the SL cable is compared to NACA 5.

I've redone the test with one of friends who owns the cable, and same thing, SL just has a lot more resolution than NACA 5, we both heard it.

So yes, in my opinion NACA5 holds back the performance, but I never said I liked the Superlumina prices 

ryder. posted:

Analog, I have no problems with people disagreeing with my impressions but in this case I was a bit surprised Badlands came out with all guns firing but was actually doing assumptions and misinterpreting my posts before calling them ridiculous and nonsense.

I wouldn't take it personally, seems cable discussions bring out some strong reactions. 

In my case I was a strong cable disbeliever, until I saw the light and much more happier with all my systems now.

It is important to remember though - cables cannot improve the sound, the best cables are the ones that do the least damage to the delicate signal, and it is important to remember the audio signal is not DC current that flows in one direction

It is an AC signal, and flows back and forth between the source and amplifier, many times a second, and be subject to reflections if the impedance mismatch between RCA plug and signal traps the high frequencies (which in lesser cables, happens !)

So the cable has a pretty important and difficult job to do, and according to vertere is the weakest link in hi-fi systems  at this point in time.

badlands posted:

So have I owned both sets of amps, and quite a bit more Naim amps as a matter of fact through the years of ownership, I don't proclaim to be an expert on the subject, but I have compared SL, Chord, Atlas, Nordost and a host of other cables to the standard cables, and honestly I don't hear the differences so clearly as you do. Presentations change slightly, but not to the levels that are expressed in some posts.  In blind listening tests between cables, including SL cables, nobody was able to identify which cable was playing 100% of the time, so either my hearing is just not as sensitive as yours, which is very possible, but what of the others who also participated in these tests, is their hearing also not quite up to your level of hearing expertise? Possible? Yes, but somewhat doubtful.

I'd be willing to bet that self justification has a lot to do with the perceived differences that you are clearly hearing. Look, everybody hears things differently, and I get that, and to some those differences are worth the price of admission, personally I have never experienced those kind of differences in cables that would warrant me spending the 20 times difference in price. Speakers, amps, cartridges, yes, but not in cables. To say that the standard provided Naim cables are of poor quality and make the amps sound dull and lifeless is just not what I have experienced with those cables, sorry.

As for my assumptions to Ryders posts, if I misunderstood what you were saying, than I apologize for the mistake, that's the problem with forums, how one interprets others replies and not being able to communicate face to face can be misleading and  unfairly judged. Ryder, I hope no hard feelings, as I respect what you say....................Most of the time!!!

No harm done Badlands. I too apologise for being overly enthusiastic with my comments. For the record, I have rerun the comparison and posted the detailed analysis on another forum. It's not convenient to post my impressions here as it's against the rules. I cannot mention one of the cables that has been replaced on this forum.

In summary, I agree that in a blind test, most will be destined to fail. I don't deny that at all. However, my previous impressions are still valid except for one. The full loom Chord may not be equivalent to a box upgrade, specifically 202 to 282. Say on a scale of 1 to 5, the 202 to 282 upgrade is at 5 on the scale and the difference between the Chord and standard Naim cables is at 3 to 4 on the scale. Still a good all-round improvement.

I also agree on the bit about budget allocation on cables though that's personal as there will be people who can pay big money on cables. I surely don't advocate spending a lot of money on cables. I may have overspent on cables though the total cost of the full loom Chord in my system excluding speaker cables at £1,550 is still not too bad considering I bought mostly new but lower than retail.

There may be some exaggeration on my part and I apologise. After switching back to the standard Naim cables, they do not sound too dull or uninspiring. Music still sounds good. However, they do lack the articulation, energy and extension of the (full loom) Chord cables. If it's not a full loom, the differences are not easy to pick up.

analogmusic posted:

I wouldn't take it personally, seems cable discussions bring out some strong reactions. 

In my case I was a strong cable disbeliever, until I saw the light and much more happier with all my systems now.

It is important to remember though - cables cannot improve the sound, the best cables are the ones that do the least damage to the delicate signal, and it is important to remember the audio signal is not DC current that flows in one direction

It is an AC signal, and flows back and forth between the source and amplifier, many times a second, and be subject to reflections if the impedance mismatch between RCA plug and signal traps the high frequencies (which in lesser cables, happens !)

So the cable has a pretty important and difficult job to do, and according to vertere is the weakest link in hi-fi systems  at this point in time.

Yes, despite the most recent experiment I am still a cable believer. I just need to tone down my enthusiasm.

M37 posted:

Ryder,
Interesting. I also think about getting Signature links with my Epic cables so comparing back and forth with stock rails would be appreciated.
Do you use DIN-RCA Signature interconnects and have you compared to RCA-RCA?

I have made the comparison. The difference between the standard metal links and Chord Signature links is small. That's all I have to say.

Thanks for the feedback Ryder.