Who Is Still Running Standard Naim Cables On 282/HCDR/250DR and Above

Gazza posted:

I just cannot get past paying these sums for so little copper, silver or whatever it is. I feel I am at least getting some value when I pick up a 6 or 7 kg black box. Clever marketing, makes a SQ difference, so charge black box prices. Guess I would do the same if I knew how.

I must agree that I cannot see how the prices for these cables can be justified. I just bought a 555 power supply, beautifully presented in its lovely polished metal case along with a new power line and burndy. It costs less than a 9m pair of SL speaker leads. This is despite the 555 being exactingly  made from hand picked electrical components by highly skilled experts at Naim, a very time consuming process I am sure. I also really love the sound the standard din-xlr lead and A5 cables convey, it all sounds perfect to me.  I am sure the fancy cables are better but cannot get my head around their outrageous prices. Someone is taking the piss, just quietly.

ryder. posted:

Christopher_M posted:

ryder. posted:

Christopher_M posted:

Very happy with my standard Naim wires in my set. I concede that my amps are less than those stipulated but I've put my money into decent Naim sources and speakers instead.

That's a wise move. My impressions above are mainly on the 282/HCDR/250DR. Lesser amps such as the 202/HCDR/200 may not show the same results.

My Naim ambitions would be my record player and Naim sources into NAC252/ SCDR, NAP200 into my SBLs. Standard wires.

Whatever floats your boat. I have shared my experience - the standard Naim wires are limiting the potential of the mid level separates system. 252/SCDR is good too.

If only you had a CDS3 or CDX2/ XPS, how different it might have been! One of the Naim forum's great 'what ifs'

Gazza posted:

I just cannot get past paying these sums for so little copper, silver or whatever it is. I feel I am at least getting some value when I pick up a 6 or 7 kg black box. Clever marketing, makes a SQ difference, so charge black box prices. Guess I would do the same if I knew how.

It is tough to get your head around the price of some of the wires out there. Some are laughable. But if you look inside those black boxes there too are bits of copper in various forms. 

All fine that the old cables hold back the systems, but I feel that the manufacturers are hiding a very simple reason why other cables can improve a system much. Hardly any of the manufacturers do publish specs of their cables.

I think its needed to start a lobby in the EU to force manufacturers to publish specs of cables. Prices will go down by 90%.

Hurrah.

Kiwi cat posted:

Someone is taking the piss, just quietly.

They are.. But people like the changes they bring and so spend the money. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I think the difference these wires can bring needs to be kept in perspective. It's easy for new owners to get very excited about their purchases and there is the potential to exaggerate the effect - it is certainly not the case that there is a 'night and day' difference. I have Super Lumina cables and think they are a great way to finish off a system and get the best from it. But in no way are they as significant as the boxes or the speakers and people using the bog standard wires should not for one second think they must have the new posh wires. Yes, some of them are good, but you can have music that is perfectly enjoyable without them. 

I have to disagree there.

When I added a Vertere DIN/XLR to my 250, it is a day and night difference to me, one of the bigger upgrades I have experienced.

The old Naim DIN/XLR cable just hold back the music, and by comparison sounds dull and lifeless.

I'm much more motivated to spend more on cables than boxes now.

And while Superlumina is too expensive for me in the context of 282/HC/250, it would be nice of Naim to work on a Superlumina-lite/mini range of cables since Chord and Vertere make very good cables for a lot less money.

The Superlumina cables are really priced at Chord Sarum, Naim 500 and Statement levels

Why should I have to pay GBP 1,629 for a SuperLumina Din to XLR for my NAP 250 when the 250 DR costs 3,500 GBP?

Please don't reply that the statement cable costs more, because that is a XLR to XLR balanced cable. Not Din to XLR. the NAP 250 DIN/XLR is only really usable on a NAP 250.

Does it make sense? No it does not when Chord can supply a good cable for a lot less money, maybe not Sarum, but do I need Sarum or SL for my Nap 250? so the SL DIN/XLR is the best sounding cable I have heard, but I'm not prepared to pay that much if I can get a still good cable for a lot less money.

So hope Naim will make a range of cables for customers below NAP 500/NAC 552.

Otherwise Like me and Ryder, we will just get our cables elsewhere.

Ryder,
Same result here when I switched from NACA5 on my speakers. And you don't have to go as high as 282 .. even audible with my old Nait5i. (Although the combination may seem ridiculous.)

We only have ourselves to blame,  fancy (rip-off) cable prices are because audiophools buy them,  we get sucked in by the myths & misinformation (& lack of real information) .  The pricing gets worse as the cable cmpys try yet another punt at more pricing madness at each introduction of the latest supercharged faster than speed of light & double the insanity of the previous hyper stratospheric looney toones cable.    We only have ourselves to blame.   

Gazza posted:

Or a nice motor car weighing a couple of tons of metal etc. But if people are happy to do this, and I know music gives myself and others a lot of pleasure, so be it. Probably would do the same if I was totally loaded.

My after market cable cost a grand total of £32 (£100 if you include the cost of the soldering iron and the solder).  Even the assembly jig cost me nothing as I made it from some small bits of scrap wood.

2 x Neutrik XLR plugs   £15
2 x Prehkeytec DIN plugs   £7
2m Mogami W2549  £10

And a very considerable improvement over the stock cables.

Huge posted:

Gazza posted:

Or a nice motor car weighing a couple of tons of metal etc. But if people are happy to do this, and I know music gives myself and others a lot of pleasure, so be it. Probably would do the same if I was totally loaded.

My after market cable cost a grand total of £32 (£100 if you include the cost of the soldering iron and the solder).  Even the assembly jig cost me nothing as I made it from some small bits of scrap wood.

2 x Neutrik XLR plugs   £15
2 x Prehkeytec DIN plugs   £7
2m Mogami W2549  £10

And a very considerable improvement over the stock cables.

Huge, what is based on specs the difference between your cables and standard cables?

Huge posted:

Gazza posted:

Or a nice motor car weighing a couple of tons of metal etc. But if people are happy to do this, and I know music gives myself and others a lot of pleasure, so be it. Probably would do the same if I was totally loaded.

My after market cable cost a grand total of £32 (£100 if you include the cost of the soldering iron and the solder).  Even the assembly jig cost me nothing as I made it from some small bits of scrap wood.

2 x Neutrik XLR plugs   £15
2 x Prehkeytec DIN plugs   £7
2m Mogami W2549  £10

And a very considerable improvement over the stock cables.

Hmmm, wonder what the "market" would charge for your cable... What do your ears suggest, Huge? 

Huge posted:

My after market cable cost a grand total of £32 (£100 if you include the cost of the soldering iron and the solder).  Even the assembly jig cost me nothing as I made it from some small bits of scrap wood.

2 x Neutrik XLR plugs   £15
2 x Prehkeytec DIN plugs   £7
2m Mogami W2549  £10

And a very considerable improvement over the stock cables.

Same recipe as me (although I needed 6 of everything), same result.

Add me to being a Mogami 2549 user, I own up to starting the Mogami fan club.   I have two DIN-DIN cables made to fit the installation,  28cm & 37cm in length (2.1 feet)  minimal capacitance & no 1.2m loops of unwanted cable.  If I bought the same today from the same RedCo USA vendor,  the cable is $0.80 a foot,  the REAN/Neutrik NYS322 DIN plugs are $1.13 each.     I'll leave you to work on the math.   It (they) was tested against Lavender, FBS Premium,  HiLine,  a Chord that was around the same price as HL & whatever the best AR was at the time.

I would suggest it's easy to dismiss something that we more then likely have not heard in ones own system at home.

That said I would not want to demo a statement at home, I can't afford it so best left well alone.

I tried other cables but they don't work for me. So happy with the naim standards on 252/300 level. christoph

I think CDX2/NDX/272/282 level is where benefit can be had from upgrading wires generally.  To what extent is a really a matter of personal preference and trial.   But in my experience the  best place for anyone to start is a dedicated (radial) spur.

Regards,

Lindsay

The Strat (Fender) posted:

 But in my experience the  best place for anyone to start is a dedicated (radial) spur.

My daughter used her hairdyer last week, and the Naim toroidals went crazy. She switched off the hairdyer and everything was calm again.

I think you are right.

Agreed Lyndsay. There are even differences between the dedicated mains used. 2.5, 4, 6 and 10mm all sounded different to me. 

Ardbeg10y posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

 But in my experience the  best place for anyone to start is a dedicated (radial) spur.

My daughter used her hairdyer last week, and the Naim toroidals went crazy. She switched off the hairdyer and everything was calm again.

I think you are right.

I've had two dedicated mains in separate houses and had/still experience that problem (not me using the hairdryer BTW honest) 

It's likely to be speaker and system dependent, I think HH has found this too. With NBLs on a CDX2/555ps/282/SCdr/250 I didn't like the SL interconnect, never got as far as the speaker cables. With 552/500 it might be different but I'm still not settled on the digital front end and that will come first.

I had the opportunity to hear TQ black diamond speaker cables, with a SN1 and HCdr and cdx2, the cables made a vast difference, sounded exceptionally good. 

That said, as has been mentioned a dedicated supply is certainly a good starting point. 

Ardbeg10y posted:

Huge posted:

Gazza posted:

Or a nice motor car weighing a couple of tons of metal etc. But if people are happy to do this, and I know music gives myself and others a lot of pleasure, so be it. Probably would do the same if I was totally loaded.

My after market cable cost a grand total of £32 (£100 if you include the cost of the soldering iron and the solder).  Even the assembly jig cost me nothing as I made it from some small bits of scrap wood.

2 x Neutrik XLR plugs   £15
2 x Prehkeytec DIN plugs   £7
2m Mogami W2549  £10

And a very considerable improvement over the stock cables.

Huge, what is based on specs the difference between your cables and standard cables?

I don't exactly know the specks of the standard cables for a NAP 300, but given the construction, I'd expect a fairly low inductance.  A similar 0.75mm² cable I found has a capacitance of 180pf/m.

The Mogami cable is 87pF/m & 0.8μH/m; so very good on both counts.

Timo posted:

Huge posted:

<snip>

Hmmm, wonder what the "market" would charge for your cable... What do your ears suggest, Huge? 

 I would say at least the equivalent of SL...   

Actually I don't know how good they are other than they are a very substantial improvement on the stock cables; however, Mogami W2549 is used extensively in a fair number of high end recording studios, so it can't be that bad!

At a very rough guess, as a 3rd party after market item, I'd say they'd be marketable at £200 - £600 for the pair!  So that gives an idea of the excessive price of some cables.

I'm not an expert at all with regards to cables, but I start to smell that low capacitance is all what matters. Carefully hidden by not publishing any specs.

Low capacitance is certainly an important point in small signal cables (this is also a JV opinion), but it's not the only thing that matters.

I'm enjoying an active ovator setup currently and read on this forum that the snaxo --> poweramp should be connected by an Active Lead instead of the standard Snaic because the Active Leads have lower capacitance. So I purchased 2 of Naim - waiting at the Dealer currently. I think it will be the same effect as what Ryder. describes. Its just that the pre / crossover signal to the poweramp needs to be as good as possible to help the power amps driving the speakers well.

After my holiday I know.

Maybe my weak sources will be revealed even more ...