Cat 5, 6, 7, switches and ferrites (new member questions)

Welcome to the madhouse! What I would do is get some ordinary Cat5e cables of a suitable length and leave it at that, at least for now. Get to know your new system, get it set up properly on a decent rack, and experiment with room positioning. Later, if the mood takes you, buy some different Ethernet cables from a seller who will let you try them at home, and return them if you don't find a worthwhile improvement. 

Yes indeed as Chris says,  welcome to the mad house. And congratulations on a nice nice system.    

It seems you have locked on to a few of my posts so I'd better respond.  First I would say it is most important to get the LAN set up correctly, drops outs & discovery issues are frustrating - or so I'm told   -   Chris's idea of setting up with basic cable is sound,  or maybe I would go straight to Cat6 as in pounds per metre its peanuts.  Once thats done changing ethernet cables to a higher Cat number does not necessarily bring significant changes,  maybe smother, definition, detail etc,  but at best its kinda subtle.

I don't know the  Talk Talk D Link "superfast" router,  but whatever jam they they say it will plait,  bottom line is all it means is the ports are Gigabit,  but that is not important as with the Netgear GS105 between NAS & 272 its Gigabit anyway   (G in GS means Gigabit).    And yes I do prefer a switch over an ISP wireless hub.  I suspect ISP hubs (maybe not all, but who knows) might not be able to manage data streams as a real switch.  I also have concerns with some hubs ability to maintain port speed across all ports simultaneously.   The hub to switch ethernet does not need to be anything fancy & your idea about a long one from router to switch is 100%,  to help installation have a look at the flat Cat6 cables,  they work really well & you can get them in long length readymade from places like the 'big river'.  

I would leave ferrites for a while,  get the basics done first & live with that.   We can get back to that anytime  

My present setup you can see in my profile, it has cable & switch brands & I've posted the network schematic there as well  (now I need to go scrap my Photobucket account - [#*$@ idiots])

Welcome to the Forum. It's so nice to see a question that sets out all the pertinent facts so clearly, which makes it much easier to give sensible advice. I would agree that running a long cable from the router to the switch is a very good idea, with two short cables to the streamer and the nas. We used to have our router and nas in the sitting room, but got fed up with the wires and flashing lights, so had the router moved elsewhere, and the nas now lives in the dining room. So if the router is hidden out of sight, you may want to hide the nas as well. In that case you could consider a short run to a switch, to which you connect the router with a short wire, and then run a long wire from the switch to the streamer. 

I am a firm believer in the benefits of good Ethernet cables, and use AudioQuest Cinnamon from my router to a switch, and then AudioQuest Vodka from my switch to the streamer and nas. 

I have the same electronics as you, and have found them capable of extraordinarily good performance. I have optimised the system as far as possible with posh leads, but before going there I'd strongly suggest that you install dedicated mains and get a really good rack for the system to sit on. These are quite literally the foundations on which the system is built, and do not have to be inordinately expensive. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

..............   We used to have our router and nas in the sitting room, but got fed up with the wires and flashing lights,............. router is hidden out of sight, you may want to hide the nas as well.

Absolutly hide the NAS,    the lights! the lights! they drive me mad!      I have mine in a nearby small closed cabinet.  It also houses the UPS & network switch & the cabinet top draw has all the bits & pieces like iPad charger etc I use with audio.     But whatever you do don't hide the wireless hub,  that needs to be out in free space to propagate its airwaves 

Indeed welcome to the forum, as said above keep it simple... regular Cat5e is more than ample... get used to the system and then if you must then you can tweak :-) The ferrites are a simple tweak that may yield a subtle but worthwhile uplift on your system.. clamp them around mains and Ethernet leads near the connector on your streamer.

Yes best keep anything that makes a noise other than your music... out of the listening room. Things like NAS and computers with fans best kept away perhaps in a study or store room.

I've just re-read what I wrote above, and noticed that in the penultimate line of the first paragraph I shoukd have written 'nas' rather than 'router'. Sorry for any confusion.

Well I could see how great this forum was over the past few weeks but I wasn't expecting so many quick replies from such knowledgeable  members whose opinions I really respect.  Thanks to you all and thanks also for the warm welcome.  It's great to join the madhouse!

It has of course led to just a handful more questions and comments as follows (sorry!):

1. I guess when I looked at the price of Audioquest vodka, after picking myself off the floor I concluded (supported by Mike-B's set up diagram) that perhaps I didn't need to spend quite that much, but if I eventually did then it made sense (to keep cost down) to limit the length of the two more expensive cables from switch to NAS and NAC-272.  So given that I don't envisage being able to re-position my rack, in my mind this limited my options if I wanted to re-position the switch/NAS too far from the NAC-272.  But if I really don't need to spend silly money at this early stage on cable then that seems to give more options for re-positioning the NAS and/or switch if that becomes desirable.  I assume this is realistically what Chrissu was referring to when talking about re-positioning, rather than the rack?
2. Mike-B You beat me to it re the photobucket debacle!  Thanks a lot, I'll look at your profile.
3. A dedicated mains circuit is definitely on my priority list (eventually!).  The second time I turned the NAP-250 on (following all the manual guidelines about volume down etc etc) it tripped the sockets circuit on our Consumer Unit and the amp and streamer went off which freaked me a bit.  I was using a power strip (foolish perhaps as I luckily have a double socket right behind the rack which is currently enough for the NAP-250 and the power cable from XPS-DR.  I've since read lots of threads on here about the merits of power strips as against plugging straight into the wall etc.  , and it seems that I would have been better advised to use this and didn't need the power strip.   I also wonder if I should upgrade the NAP-250 standard looking power lead to a Naim powerline lead, as it was ex demo and didn't come with one, in contrast to both the XPS and NAC-272 which did.    I also need to get an electrician in to look at what our options are for eventually getting a dedicated mains circuit (spur?)
4. It's very early days as we are waiting for an electrician/Openreach chap who we know to find a free slot in the next 10 days hopefully to move our router from the entrance porch into the lounge (basically the other side of the porch door) but still out of sight, and so I have literally only tried the system briefly with USB stick.  Incidentally as a temporary option, is it only a USB stick that works in the NAC-272 or can an external hard drive through USB lead work too with the remote control?  I suspect not and it would be very unwieldy I know but until we get the router moved I have no network set up and limited options for playing music.  My girlfriend would prefer to only pull up carpet and turn the lounge upside down once!!

Odd Time Jon posted:

1. I guess when I looked at the price of Audioquest vodka, after picking myself off the floor I concluded (supported by Mike-B's set up diagram) that perhaps I didn't need to spend quite that much, but if I eventually did then it made sense (to keep cost down) to limit the length of the two more expensive cables from switch to NAS and NAC-272.  So given that I don't envisage being able to re-position my rack, in my mind this limited my options if I wanted to re-position the switch/NAS too far from the NAC-272.  But if I really don't need to spend silly money at this early stage on cable then that seems to give more options for re-positioning the NAS and/or switch if that becomes desirable.  I assume this is realistically what Chrissu was referring to when talking about re-positioning, rather than the rack?

My experience of different (expensive) Ethernet cables is relatively limited, but my impression is that the improvements are subtle, and not necessarily related to their cost. Thus my suggestion to keep it simple, use regular Cat5e, and then you will have a baseline to make comparisons against if you decide to try different cables at a later date. Also, you may well decide to make changes to the layout of your network and/or system to optimise sound quality, or for other reasons, perhaps not obvious to you yet. Better to get all this right first, and get to know your system, then you know that any expensive cables you purchase in future will be the right length. This might apply to mains or speaker cables as well as network cables. 

Odd Time Jon posted:

A dedicated mains circuit is definitely on my priority list (eventually!).  The second time I turned the NAP-250 on (following all the manual guidelines about volume down etc etc) it tripped the sockets circuit on our Consumer Unit and the amp and streamer went off which freaked me a bit.

 

When you get a dedicated mains circuit installed, use type C MCBs instead of the more widely used type B and you should find that it takes care of the tripping issue.

Have you thought of leaving the router where it is and simply running a wire? That way you keep the flashing lights out of your main room. 

One other point, initially it's easier to work with the UTP type of Ethernet cable as then you won't have to worry about multiple earth points and earth loops caused by the network.

Later you can try using fancy Ethernet cables and/or other types of shielded Ethernet cables along with adding ferrites.  Basic Cat6 UTP Ethernet cables are easily available and really cheap - thye're not significantly more expensive than Cat5e (and can sometimes have a bit better noise immunity if you have an electrically noisy environment).  Get it going in the simplest way and then tweak; that way if the tweaks don't work or make things worse you can easily go back.

Welcome to the wonderful world of streaming.

I see Mike has already frunished the netwok diagram for you (if not - please send me an email and I will forward it - my email is in my profile).

Few words on expensive ethernet cables - during the tests / experiments I noticed they make biggest improvements on a final 'leg' - i.e. from a wall socket to the streamer. Good quality streaming / network cables tend to be beneficial for streaming connections closer to the router e.g. NAS to a switch.

I'd also recommend keeping the network equipment as far away from your NAIM boxes as possible and on a separte mains circuit (if at all possible). 

Happy streaming Oh... and enjoy the music

Adam

Adam,

Fourth line?  I'm not sure you meant it quite like that; as written it contradicts the third line.

(Language usage issue from Polish to English perhaps?  If so I think this is the first time I've seen one from you, your ability with English always amazes me; most of the time I forget that you're not a native English speaker!)

(P.S. What an odd expression that is "native language", none of us truly has a native language: When we're born we can't speak or even understand language at all!)

ChrisSU posted:

Odd Time Jon posted:

A dedicated mains circuit is definitely on my priority list (eventually!).  The second time I turned the NAP-250 on (following all the manual guidelines about volume down etc etc) it tripped the sockets circuit on our Consumer Unit and the amp and streamer went off which freaked me a bit.

 

When you get a dedicated mains circuit installed, use type C MCBs instead of the more widely used type B and you should find that it takes care of the tripping issue.

Great thanks

Huge posted:

Adam,

Fourth line?  I'm not sure you meant it quite like that; as written it contradicts the third line.

(Language usage issue from Polish to English perhaps?  If so I think this is the first time I've seen one from you, your ability with English always amazes me; most of the time I forget that you're not a native English speaker!)

(P.S. What an odd expression that is "native language", none of us truly has a native language: When we're born we can't speak or even understand language at all!)

Huge - most likely a clumsy sentence - I forgot a word 'also' there Well spotted. And thank you for the language compliment.

What I meant is that:

1. Good quality network cable (say from Chord or Audioquest) is most beneficial on the final part of the signal's journey - just before it enters a streamer. From a logic point of view it doesn't make much sense, but in a way it does - in the same way as good quality power supply cables do.

2. I ALSO found that one can improve 'things' to a certain degree by replacing regular patch cables between a switch and a patch panel and a switch and network streaming components (like a NAS) with good quality network cables (I use Chord C-Stream there). Had Photobucket decided not to make our lives difficult, I would have been able to post a picture of my network cabinet to illustrate...

Adam

 

1. Good quality network cable (say from Chord or Audioquest) is most beneficial on the final part of the signal's journey - just before it enters a streamer. From a logic point of view it doesn't make much sense, but in a way it does - in the same way as good quality power supply cables do.

 

 

As far as I can make out, the only credible explanation of how better ethernet cable could make a difference is because it better avoids transmitting vibrations to the streamer. In which case, would seem highly logical that it made more of a difference on the last leg.

Is there another theory that makes any sense?

Yes, it can also reduce or alter the radiated RFI absorbed by the cable and the conducted RFI conducted down the cable (hence also the benefit some people find in using ferrites on their network cables).

JedT posted:

As far as I can make out, the only credible explanation of how better ethernet cable could make a difference is because it better avoids transmitting vibrations to the streamer. In which case, would seem highly logical that it made more of a difference on the last leg.

Is there another theory that makes any sense?

Yes, not really theory, but sound engineering principles, its electro magnetic coupling and subsequent loading between the Ethernet cable twisted pairs and the physical line drivers.. the coupling and interaction will vary to some extent by the quality of the cable twisted pairs, screening and pair decoupling.

Here is a TI engineering  guide for 10/100 Mbps applications (which is exactly Naim streamers) ... BTW Naim  use TI DAC chips and output chipsets..

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

PS vibrations sounds obscure (for copper twisted pair) certainly would attach much credence to that.... certainly irrelevant as far as mainstream engineering practice.

I think a linear power supply on NAS is as much important aş the cabling, it is the first thing i did before i spend my money on diamonds.. to tell the truth cinnamon vs diamond i dont know, i need to go back to cinnamon to tell the difference maybe, it was not like oh my god what an improvment moment when i install them, it was a what ıf type of purchase...

Be wary of 'linear' power supplies on digital electronic devices if they are not designed specifically for your device or vica versa as they can make EM emissions worse... you might prefer the effect of increased RF noise  sonically but you might be operating your device outside its design parameters. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

JedT posted:

As far as I can make out, the only credible explanation of how better ethernet cable could make a difference is because it better avoids transmitting vibrations to the streamer. In which case, would seem highly logical that it made more of a difference on the last leg.

Is there another theory that makes any sense?

Yes, not really theory, but sound engineering principles, its electro magnetic coupling and subsequent loading between the Ethernet cable twisted pairs and the physical line drivers.. the coupling and interaction will vary to some extent by the quality of the cable twisted pairs, screening and pair decoupling.

Here is a TI engineering  guide for 10/100 Mbps applications (which is exactly Naim streamers) ... BTW Naim  use TI DAC chips and output chipsets..

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snla107a/snla107a.pdf

PS vibrations sounds obscure (for copper twisted pair) certainly would attach much credence to that.... certainly irrelevant as far as mainstream engineering practice.

Thanks for that - my E&E Engineering degree is in the dim and distant and unused but just about coped with the TI paper! 

And I'm right in thinking that the idea is that the noise introduced by the EM coupling finds its way to the analogue side of the DAC via power supply?

Possibly, I suspect it also modulates the ground plane and DAC clock to which we are rather sensitive to you.... certainly the former will marginally raise the noise floor with non harmonic cross talk.

Translation for everyone else...   Electronic crud gets to the circuits inside the box!   

Simon, I know how you do so like over simplified explanations! 

OK, now I'm going to duck...  and run for cover...

E 

Thanks! Simon is a top man and I owe him big time for helping me out, but I have to admit that some of his explanations sound more like random words strung together. Take down your plasma flasks! Reset the Geiger barometer! I'm sure it is absolutely right, and that it would be just the same if I tried to explain the school funding formula and minimum funding guarantee. 

Huge posted:

Translation for everyone else...   Electronic crud gets to the circuits inside the box!   

Simon, I know how you do so like over simplified explanations! 

OK, now I'm going to duck...  and run for cover...

E 

Ha! Thanks Huge. I was struggling to fully understand shall we say!? ;-) But I think your explanation is the gist of it...from my basic understanding anyway.  I did a Chemistry degree (no engineering of any kind)  25+ years ago and am starting to wish I persevered beyond O level physics! I keep reminding myself to enjoy the music!