I am so sick of streaming....

wirelessly, the problem is probably here. 

Wow DrMark, I really feel your pain. I too have had 'issues' with Naim streaming kit but nothing like you describe.

I won't begin to offer any solutions other than you would be well advised to ethernet wire your streamer to your router and put a basic switch between your irremovable router and your 272 and server/NAS (if you have one). it just isolates your 272 from all the other household 'internet traffic' and wired will always trump wifi connection.

But my best advice is to contact Naim Customer Support. They are a wonderful group of individuals dedicated to sorting out issues like yours. More than once have they sorted my issues.

No way should you need to put up with the issues you have had to contend with. Give them a call or e-mail them.

All the very best.

I listen Tidal and internet radio on my 272 using wifi connection and everything works perfect, in six months i didn't had even a little problem..

Mark, Your're hurting, please call (or email) Naim or their local representatives.

C.

Yes I Feel your pain also,  it's on occasions such as this that empathy and understanding is required not solutions.

And not 'mine works fine' contributions....

I suggest some alcohol, followed by some more alcohol,  it will ease the pain and help you to forget... 

Mark, I'm going to move this to the streaming audio room. I will also moderate some of the language - please don't use such language on here. I know you're frustrated but such language has no place here.

Networking issues can be really frustrating. Phil is back from holiday on Monday so hopefully he can help you. In the meantime, drop Naim support an email. 

I have had the same issues over the last 5 years in my journey from Uniti to Superuniti to 272/250 all with the Unitiserve

Initially the dropouts were atrocious because the Internet came into the house upstairs to the Unitiserve, and was streamed 10 meters through a floor and several walls to the Uniti, which was downstairs whilst the unitiserve was upstairs. It was so bad I could not show off my lovely new system because I never knew if it would work or not. There seemed no rhyme or reason to this, as at times it would be reliable.

I got so fed up I arranged for the Internet to be wired to the room where the Uniti was , and brought the Unitiserve downstairs to to be hard wired to the Uniti. So much better. Only dropouts occurred when ISP was at fault. Very reliable.

2 years ago I moved my Superuniti to a different room, 10 meters away from the Internet entry point,modem and  Unitiserve. I made sure however, that the Unitiserve was connected to the superuniti with about 20 meters of cat5 cable to avoid the drop out issue. And guess what,  back to square one. This time it was because the signal from the modem/ router was too weak to get to the iPad I used for the Naim app. This meant the app could not find the superuniti on the iPad or iPhone app. So it was a network issue. After pulling out many of my remaining hairs and much teeth gnashing I found out after 18 months that the modem/ router provided by my ISP was crap. Very poor wireless range.

Problem was solved by buying a $500 modem router called the Linksys ea9500 which was connected to the existing el cheapo crap router. I was advised by Naim dealer to keep said crap modem/ router in the circuit, so the IS providers could not use that was an excuse if there were further issues.

The  Linksys I have is large and looks like a dead cockroach with its 8 antennae.It is designed to be used as a single modem router to broadcast a strong signal in small apartments with multiple users.

so what I have learned is

1. get the most powerful modem/ router possible or an Internet extender.

2. Get your signal to your system hardwired in with Ethernet cable

Once done, the variables that will continue musical frustration will be a.Internet dropouts due to poor signal from the ISP , which are beyond your control, and b. bug filled naim updated apps. 

In in your case piggy back the best modem/ router onto your hunk of sh*t router and things may improve. I got my Naim dealer to do this, or a nerd/geek with appropriate experience. Alternatively get aforesaid nerd to get Internet booster device.

All  the best in your struggles. Been there, done that!

Local streaming is really / should be all about the ease of use.

Building a stable streaming network takes some effort. When I first started streaming I thought I was going to explode. The frustration and the anger. But step by step I got there.

[@mention:1566878603948763] - is there anything I / we can help with?

For the time being, although we are using a Mac Mini exclusively for our music, we aren't "streaming". The Mini plays directly over SPDIF optical into the SN1. File storage is local on the Mini HD and a hard (USB) wired external HD. We only use our network for control functions (and Tidal, occasionally).  The nightmare, twonky world of the laughably-named UPnP streaming is just too scary.

First: apologies to Richard, but I was really just about a red hair away from destroying the unit. Were I wealthy, I might have done it. (Of course, were I wealthy I'd have a 552/500.)

I am sure wireless is at least a partial issue. I have a better router (nothing like Kiwi's) in a box in the closet, but my network skills are not up to making the proprietary PoS a pass-thru device; looked at the instructions for it once and thought "Yeah, Imma probably screw that up..." And it is not possible to get the NAS and router to the hifi. And the proprietary router has to be involved, because anything you can buy can't do the U-Verse connection; which then allows AT&T to charge me like $7 a month for a $50 router - I have probably bought that damn thing 10 times by now.

Besides, if Naim gear can't stream wirelessly, then why is it made with that capability?

Just about a week or so ago I recall thinking how Naim may have finally gotten this streaming thing all sorted out since it had been doing OK, and then it turned into the audio week from hell. SBT works every time on the second system. Router is on the same floor less than 25 linear feet away, with nothing but el-cheapo USA sheetrock and wood studs on 18 inch centers intervening...typical suburban crap USA construction.

With all the garbage that has gone on in the year plus I have had the 272, this is the first time drop outs have been at issue. Typically it has been connecting at all, but once it did, it generally performed right. And when it works I am real happy with the sound - A/B'd it with a bare CD5X before the CDP was sold and minimal if any discernible SQ difference.

Adam - start a 12-step streaming support group. "My name is Mark P, and I stream..."

One thing I just checked: the Vortex Box system status shows the memory at 94%, so I am rebooting - which I had done just a couple of days ago. I wonder if the issue is if it is not serving things up properly because the software is having to page cache, which is very I/O intensive and takes time. Makes me wonder if there isn't a memory leak somewhere. Now post-re-boot it is at 17%; will test and report back.

Nope - 4 drop outs in the first 53 seconds of the chosen cut...but then none after that.

Another thing I would point out, and this has been literally 90% of the time I start to use the unit since I got it - it says "No Network" - and I have to "wake it up" with the Naim remote - then it finds the network. Nothing else in the house has any issue finding the network. That had actually mitigated during the recent "good times" but is in play again more often than not.

What about firmware updates on the 272 itself? (He nervously asked.) How does one know if one needs one, and how is that accomplished? Woudl it have a likelihood of correcting the issue?

This whole "it used to work but now it doesn't" thing is so annoying... with a wireless installation like this all it takes to go from OK to cr*p is for a neighbour to plug in a new router or extender using the same channel as yours (and they all pretty much use the same channel)... what was once a clear dedicated wireless channel becomes a multi device, multi user channel and your own kit is struggling to get its own data through.

Wireless is always going to be troublesome at some time or another which is why Naim quietly but strongly advises against it in private conversations (publicly the kit is designed & sold to use wireless, so you'll not hear wireless poo-pooed, but in a private conversation you're likely to discover that wireless 'can be problematic').

The best solution will be (and there's no getting away from this fact) to install a wired network connection.  And if this means holes through walls and mini trunking around the skirts, or even floor board lifting, then that's the price we pay for networked devices to work flawlessly (and they will).

Although the "mine woks fine" sort of comments are of no use to you at all, DrMark, I'll finish by saying that I had a (Cat5a) network point (i.e. socket) installed in almost every room of my house (except the bathroom & toilet) and I've found the expense of this has been well worth it.  I have a wireless access point device plugged in wherever I need wireless access to my iPad for running the Naim app or my Muso and I use TP link inexpensive gigabit switches wherever I need to plug more than one device into a network point.  Nothing complicated, but very effective.  Struggles over, music on tap any time day or night.

DrMark posted:

Nope - 4 drop outs in the first 53 seconds of the chosen cut...but then none after that.

Another thing I would point out, and this has been literally 90% of the time I start to use the unit since I got it - it says "No Network" - and I have to "wake it up" with the Naim remote - then it finds the network. Nothing else in the house has any issue finding the network. That had actually mitigated during the recent "good times" but is in play again more often than not.

What about firmware updates on the 272 itself? (He nervously asked.) How does one know if one needs one, and how is that accomplished? Woudl it have a likelihood of correcting the issue?

Very unlikely... they tend to come out of the factory working as well as they're going to work wirelessly !

I had a similar issue early on with my ND5XS,  getting dropouts trying to use wireless in a second story room. I didn't want to deal with a cat5 run at the time so I set the ND5XS to ethernet, used a cat5 patch cord to an Apple Express and let he Apple Express act as a range extender to my router. Worked a treat and was less than a $100. I can wirelessly stream up to 24/192, beyond that it'll stutter. I don't have much 32bit stuff or DSD anyway or hardwiring would be a necessity.

Just mentioning it in case you are stuck with wireless, it may help work around your issues.

Thanks to both of you - I really can't get a cable to my gear without a major (and possibly impossible) intervention, however, I am intrigued by the Apple Express solution, if I can understand it.

Mark, I have to use the Apple extreme and Apple express solution and its brilliant. It circumvents the issues the arise from router and internet or ISP issues and is really strong and stable.

well worth looking at if you must go wireless. 

When i bought the Superuniti 5 years ago i had the same feelings. But its to heavy to trow. As i said before if Naim dealers would install at home all streaming devices and install solutions that work there would be no problems. I bought the Superuniti got home and then the problems started. Dealer said phone importer and he came with advise change this and this in router. Ofcourse nothing helped and then start reading this form and for me also airport express worked like a dream, even can stream dsd. So again with streaming dealers should do home install and advise more. Most of us are music lovers not pc or mac nerds. I will most probely buy the new Nova with imput direct from usb. Now if Naim solves the mess with the app i will be happy again. For now not happy because of the app problems. But kudos for this form, help is always here.

I am also feeling your pain DrMark and I also think the problem is your router. You can stream using wifi, but you need a stonking great wifi signal for it to work reliably.

In another thread recently Phil Harris said that he also uses the Linksys EA9500 router at his home. You leave your present modem doing its stuff and use the Linksys to set up another network which connects to your existing modem by Ethernet and provides a strong wifi signal that works and doesn't go flaky. No doubt when he is back, he can tell you more on the phone. You can buy the Linksys from multiple suppliers on eBay and for a lot less than $500. There are many US-based suppliers. Some people have had excellent experience with Apple routers. My own experience wasn't good and again I remember Phil saying in a further thread that Apple didn't work for him. But he can explain that. Apple routers aren't expensive anyway.

it won't be a problem with your 272 and in any case you can always reset your 272 to factory settings if you wanted to try. You don't need to worry about a firmware update. It's nearly two years since the last 272 firmware update was released, so it's very likely that you are on the current release version already.

There was very recently an update to the Android app. It is worth loading that on to your phone, but I don't think it will fix this issue.

On the question of using wire instead of wifi, this is definitely the best solution because it's fit and forget. Obviously I don't know in what ways you think it would be a major intervention to fit an Ethernet cable, but at my home I have one that goes out through a wall, along the side of the house and in through another wall.  I also have one that is under a suspended floor and another that goes in a plastic trunk up a wall and through the floor void into the room above. You can easily get flat Ethernet cable that you just put under a carpet. You can run Ethernet cables up to 100m without a problem,. Also something you could try would be to run an Ethernet cable just draped across the floor between the two rooms and check whether that fixes the problem.  For a test you don't need expensive cable. If you look on eBay you can buy any length in any colour for just a few $s, with free fast shipping often!

Anyway good luck.  There are lots of people here who want to help you!

best

David

Unbelievable.

I have been using a laptop via USB into a asynchronous DAC for over three years 'wirelessly' from a bog standard router and have NEVER experienced a single problem. I know my solution probably isn't quite as good but it's good enough and it works everytime.  For more serious listening I use a Naim CD player with a Hi-Line and although it's better (ultimately) in terms of a slightly deeper sound, I have no desire to purchase a Naim streamer, none, ZILCH.

P.S. I forgot to say, I usually stream Hi-Res via Qobuz.

Richard Dane posted:

Mark, I have to use the Apple extreme and Apple express solution and its brilliant. It circumvents the issues the arise from router and internet or ISP issues and is really strong and stable.

well worth looking at if you must go wireless. 

I strongly second this. Whilst the NDS in my main system is direct ethernet cabled via a switch, I use Airport Extreme with 2 Airport Expresses placed close to the Superuniti in my second system and my Muso in the bedroom. Both of these are ethernet cabled to the Airport Expresses and this works brilliantly, I can stream 24/192 to the Superuniti without dropouts or buffering whereas this would not be the case using a pure wifi connection. Don't know why it works but it does. 

DrMark posted:

I have to keep reminding myself how much it would cost me if I were to take my 272 and throw it against a brick wall...because that is how angry it makes me. I am wondering if selling it and using the old SBT with a  282 wouldn't be better. At least the $300 solution works every time.

If it isn't one symptom, it is another. Music is supposed to be an escape from the other bull in my life, and now all I get is pissed off when I want to listen because I can't...or if I do, it is after 15 minutes of jerking around with turning stuff on and off.

Want to listen to one song before you go to bed? Mark, not only will you not get to listen, but your adrenaline will be flowing good and plenty before you can even get to the bed.

The new problem  du jour (actually the whole week) is drop outs. Yes, I run it wirelessly - I have since I got the damned thing. And it has almost never had drop outs, despite all the other theatrics since I got it - now it is 10-20 seconds of music interspersed with 2-5 seconds of silence; back and forth. Last night the drop outs and the playing time got faster and closer together (ending at less than a second) until it finally "got past it" and then the bloody thing worked...until you stop and the next time you try, it is back to square one.

When it works, it is the best thing since sliced bread...which is about 60% of the time. Anyone who would be at my house when it acts up would NEVER buy a Naim product. Why would they, when crap at Best Buy appears to work better? Great sound isn't worth a stuff without being able to play it.

It has also suddenly taken to dropping a space in between cuts, such that it does not go seamlessly from one live cut to another. I checked the setting in LMS, and there was nothing.

Ironically, prior to this it had actually been on its most stable run since I got it for 2-3 months - the Android app was only working partially, but overall it was OK. (I really have built up a tolerance for the Naim streaming shenanigans until weeks like this and I explode.) Then this week it is un-listenable. Sometimes I can get it to behave by turning it off, restarting, reboot the NAS, etc...but who wants 10-15 minutes of that just to play music? (And that is by no means guaranteed to get me there.)

Nothing changed, and it went from working pretty well to as bad as it has been since I got it. I have tried operating it with iOS and from the front panel as well - nothing helps.

Yes I have a crappy proprietary router that I cannot get rid of...the same crappy router I had last month when it was on its good run.

This would be unacceptable performance from a consumer level product. For a boutique brand at this price point, it is unconscionable.

Yeah I know...I am blaspheming the Messiah...

You say you have a crappy router and you know that Naim devices are not the best choice for wireless streaming, you are plagued and frustrated by drop out and connection problems but you do insist on streaming through the wireless. Why not simply sonnecting your 272 to a Raspberry Pi 3 with a Hifiberry Digi + Pro via SPDIF? This will cost you less than a new router and give you a fuss-free, robust system. Put all your music on a HDD or SDD connected to one of the RP3 USB ports. Control replay with Linn Kazoo, Bubble UPnP or any other UPnP control point. Forget about routers, switches, wireless bridges and NASes. Keep it simple and you will be able to enjoy music whenever you want and without any flaw! Good luck, nbpf

Richard Dane posted:

Mark, I have to use the Apple extreme and Apple express solution and its brilliant. It circumvents the issues the arise from router and internet or ISP issues and is really strong and stable.

well worth looking at if you must go wireless. 

Ditto. It is possible to link the express and extreme by Ethernet too thus cutting down another transmission. Don't skimp on the quality of the analogue cable to your NAC though. But for a higher quality experience I prefer to load up a high capacity (64 or 128GB) iPad with HQ files and play through a long lead connected to the NAC via the 'charging' port on the iPad. A much fuller sound. 

I can +1 that too. - Flawless, for some reason the Apple kit is miles better than others. Even a Cisco AP dropped for me.

If  wired network cannot be contemplated, what about network via mains adapters?  I expected it to be a poor solution in terms of noise and SQ degradation, but tried anyway , has worked  fine for nearly three years (with Bryston streamers) now  and I can't detect  much in the way of a difference in SQ vs replay of same file from local storage.  

I hope the support guys can help, obvious solutions have already mentioned. But I can relate to your frustration. Music has to just run without any interruption. I could also get very worked up in the beginning when dealing with some initial topics. The only thing which is left that once every 5/6 months something is wrong and I need to restart the NDS, at that level it's digestible. 

I hope you will soon feel happy you haven't thrown out the 272 yet, as it's a wonderful device.