I am so sick of streaming....

Hi Mark, as others have said I feel your frustration. I do agree as Richard suggested you contact Phil in Naim support to talk through. I hesitate to suggest yet more home local network  consumer product as others have done as you say your other home devices are fine which suggests it's not a 'network issue', and it might just make matters worse (and Apple home network product is getting long in the tooth now and has real limitations in certain scenarios). It might be timing or how 'how' the data gets to your 272 which could be down to a whole load of things some in control and some not. Naim have made improvements here in recent beta firmware so a call to Phil could really help... at least he will be best able to provide a systematic way of getting to the root cause issue.

Norton posted:

If  wired network cannot be contemplated, what about network via mains adapters?  I expected it to be a poor solution in terms of noise and SQ degradation, but tried anyway , has worked  fine for nearly three years (with Bryston streamers) now  and I can't detect  much in the way of a difference in SQ vs replay of same file from local storage.  

To me the sort of thing like power line adapters can cause so much frustration to so many with home networking. These are proprietary consumer work arounds that can really interfere with how a home network should operate. Sure they can work for some with some applications , but can cause many many issues for many. Keep it simple and use Ethernet or Wifi as that is what our streaming applications have been designed for , and keep away from consumer kludges, that way the unknowns and variables can be minimised.

I moved to streaming in early 2014 & installed ethernet from the start & specifically with connectivity problems I've had none. I've helped a few friends set ups & with different brands & come out with the opinion that wireless is not all its cracked up to be & if you can't install ethernet,  then it's a compromise.    Starting with the wireless hub,  some are very good, others a pile of #*@$,  I guess its the same in US.  Wireless extenders do work better than a single wireless hub,  especially so with large houses & hub to receiver distances & internal wall obstructions.  Also don't overlook the wireless hub & 272 locations w.r.t. their antenna's & if they are hidden, obstructed or shielded.   Outside that,  have you considered powerline adapters,  I hate to even think about them,  but under all the reasons why I would not use them, they generally do work.  Check out best reviews rather than best buys for whats available in NC.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Norton posted:

If  wired network cannot be contemplated, what about network via mains adapters?  I expected it to be a poor solution in terms of noise and SQ degradation, but tried anyway , has worked  fine for nearly three years (with Bryston streamers) now  and I can't detect  much in the way of a difference in SQ vs replay of same file from local storage.  

To me the sort of thing like power line adapters can cause so much frustration to so many with home networking. These are proprietary consumer work arounds that can really interfere with how a home network should operate. Sure they can work for some with some applications , but can cause many many issues for many. Keep it simple and use Ethernet or Wifi as that is what our streaming applications have been designed for , and keep away from consumer kludges, that way the unknowns and variables can be minimised.

Well the OP reports "I am so sick of streaming". By contrast  I am very happy with my streaming (including  up to DSD 256, albeit not with a Naim streamer), use  powerline adapters,  and thus suggested them as one possible solution. I use a network based on power line adapters for  a whole range of applications and functions, spent 5 minutes  installing them 3years ago  and am unware of the frustrations to which you refer.  I was concerned about the possible degradation of SQ (using the mains as a signal carrier does seem to go wildly against received HIFi good practice) and  there is a very slight difference in replay  vs local storage, but whether that would be the case with wired Ethernet too I can't say. I only installed them  to get things up and running as a stop gap prior to getting the house properly wired for Ethernet, however they seemed fine to me and I haven't bothered installing wired Ethernet to date.  Of course others' experience may be different but maybe  worth the modest outlay for  the OP to experiment?

Mike, I don't want to detract from the OP who is clearly having challenges,  but most Wireless extenders are BAD. Simply by how they work with the wifi protocols they cant help but cause issues which you are then reliant of the applications to recover from. The appropriate standardised way to extend a wifi zone is to use an ESSID with wifi access points that hand off to each other or using very recent technology and standards using mesh access points ensuring you have multiple wired edge connectors to the mesh and a good coverage of multiple mesh points. For most UK homes mesh is probably an over kill where it more appropriate for shops, restaurants, factories and offices but ESSID devices work very very well for the home user. A properly installed wifi network with overlapping ESSID access points using modern properly specified equipment will be as effective as many home wired networks. The sad truth is the typical broadband ISP consumer wifi is light yeas away from this but confusingly it's still called wifi as opposed to wifi lite or similar.

DrMark, many here have discussed the network aspects. I too second the Airport Express solution (i have two: one to create the wireless network as I reduce the provided router to modem duties only, and one in bridge mode near the Stereo set up.) 

The reason for my post is to alert to a potential other issue. For 2+ years I was stuck with an intermittent "buffering" issue on my NDX, which was most probably due to my older NAS. I worked very closely with NAIM support over this for several months and the support level was exemplary.

I would suggest that you:

1. Monitor the buffer on your streamer.

2. When the dropouts occur is the "buffer being emptied" behavior irregular or does it display a pattern (in my case it was very regular, with the dropout time when the buffer was emptied being stable over a given track but longer for higher resolution racks).

3. Do you have dropouts also on USB?

if there is a pattern it might not be just the WiFi...

just in case this helps

Greg

Richard Dane posted:

Mark, I have to use the Apple extreme and Apple express solution and its brilliant. It circumvents the issues the arise from router and internet or ISP issues and is really strong and stable.

well worth looking at if you must go wireless. 

I agree, out of all the wireless networking products I have come across over the years, in my experience the Apple products are extremely good. Our own Time capsule with airport express is several years old (7 or 8 i think) but never fails to connect.

I would avoid (nasty) powerline adaptors, they may work for some but produce an unacceptable amount of noise, IMO.

You might like to download some software to check your wireless network strength - netstumbler or istumbler (mac version) which displays: signal strength, noise & provide other basic wireless info - if you havnt already done so.

I have used and used to advocate Apple wifi on this forum but have now retired the Apple wifi products because of their limitations. Their primary advantage at the time was  that they seemed to handle multicast data well when many other ISP wifi routers were not, but the world has moved on... however before Dr Mark throws money at something that may or may not make the blindest bit of difference I think it's best he talks to Phil. You can't overly rely on the buffer display on the streamer for network transport buffering. If Dr Mark needs new wifi product  there are certainly better options now depending on the OP's home environment  (especially if load and range is important) for similar or marginally more money... 

I know Phil has had very good experiences with some customers using the wifi products with Naim that  I am also thinking of, and I think he has commented about them previously on the forum... so best have a chat with him... he may also be able to help with a particular firmware for the 272 as of course this might be nothing to do with wifi or the network given how everything else we are told is working well on the OP's wifi.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Mike, I don't want to detract from the OP who is clearly having challenges,  but most Wireless extenders are BAD. 

It might well be so Simon,  all I can say is I've solved problems on two locations with large building & into nearby outhouse conversions with wireless extenders that are available on the market.  One was with Ubiquiti 'UniFi' & the other with Apple AE as per Richards post.    I don't doubt your suggestion is better but what's available on the market to the average punter is what I was considering.

Networking and especially wireless can be fickle things.  Everything is supposed to be compatible but I find there can be problems and not just with Naim.  Two examples...

I have Sky broadband... if I let my iPad connect to the Sky Q Hub direct, 50% of the time I can’t SSH to my Linux servers.  If I connect to an AirPort Extreme there is no issue.

And (more directly relevant to Naim) because I have TV, Naim 272 and a Sky box together, I run a cable to a small switch then onto each device.  Never had drop outs in use, but the Naim “fulls off” the network when using a Belkin switch, with the Netgear GS105 switch I’ve just swapped in so far (in 7 days) the Naim hasn’t fallen off the network at all.  And the Belkin switch is works fine for the Uniti Qute in a similar situation upstairs where the Netgear came from.

Mike-B posted:

 One was with Ubiquiti 'UniFi' & the other with Apple AE ...

Mike these are two quite different solutions, the Ubiquiti uses an ESSID with multiple access points and hand offs and load balances between them - this is a good and commercial grade solution ideally suited to many homes - but is not normally termed a Wifi Extender and as you know when you setup you should optimally create overlapping ranges or zones - a bit like a Venn diagram.  The Apple product acts as a kind of wireless relay and does not use ESSIDs. Typically this is the method consumer Wifi Extenders uses and is not good (in my opinion) - and is where there are sometimes issues with tunnels, high collisions and low effective throughput. The Ubiquiti definitely the way to go if you need your wifi to work at high capacity with multiple users and use it for streaming. The Apple solution I would only recommend on  low usage, low throughput and low number of devices connected to the SSID.

Simon

Drop outs can be caused by interference from nearby cordless phone base stations, TV's, compact fluorescent lamps etc.

Did you, or someone, move the telephone base charger station or a table lamp or something? I had a similar issue when "someone" decided to move the telephone base station from the left side of the computer to the right, adjacent to the wifi router. 
I moved it back to the other side of the computer, away from the phone base and no more drop outs.

Looks like everyone is trying to help on the networking side.  I don't have a 272 and envy you the ability to own one. 

I'd suggest keeping a usb thumb drive near the unit loaded with you favorite music.  I use a datatraveler 2.0 with my unitiQute.  When the network is a net (doesn't)work I just pop in the thumb drive to the front usb and use the remote control to listen to some music.  Then I work on the network on my time,

Sorry its not a fix for your wireless issue, but a sanity fix to listen to some music.

Good luck.

Hi Dr Mark,

It looks as though there may be a combination of issues here.

A)   as others have said WiFi is less than ideal when used for real time data transport.

B)   Naim use minimal WiFi power in their transceivers to reduce the degradational effect of RF on analogue audio electronics, making their WiFi implementation more finicky, but improving sound (when it works!).

C   "Router is on the same floor less than 25 linear feet away, with nothing but el-cheapo USA sheetrock and wood studs on 18 inch centers intervening...typical suburban crap USA construction."
Some sheetrock also has a layer of aluminium foil on the back side to help insulation (not particularly common, but sometimes it does).  If this is the case then that will be acting as a shield!

D)   "One thing I just checked: the Vortex Box system status shows the memory at 94%, so I am rebooting - which I had done just a couple of days ago. I wonder if the issue is if it is not serving things up properly because the software is having to page cache, which is very I/O intensive and takes time. Makes me wonder if there isn't a memory leak somewhere. Now post-re-boot it is at 17%; will test and report back."
OK, I agree, 94% memory just streaming audio is way too high, and then dropping to 17% on reboot sounds very much like a memory leak somewhere (but there are also a couple of other possibilities), in any case this won't be helping matters.

It's worth moving other equipment that uses the 2.4GHz band, to see if that makes a difference: costs nothing, can give information and sometimes, a solution.

Using a WiFi extension system (Airport Extreme / Express or the Ubiquiti system Simon mentioned) can enable you to get a different physical route for the RF radiation pattern from transmit antenna to receive antenna (don't forget with WiFi it's a transceiver so both antennae do both jobs!); and this flexibility of location can help to avoid each end being in a 'dead' spot with respect to the other antenna.

However, the advice to contact Phil before spending money is a good one, as he can help diagnose the underlying issues so you get the right solution to fix the real problem.

I will start this with saying that I went for a wired Ethernet solution from day 1 with my ND5XS. That said the wireless on the router supplied by my Fibre ISP is very poor.  I was experiencing  all sorts of problems with tablet and other Wi-Fi device connectivity. I purchased a Netgear Nighthawk AC1900. This is a premium Wi-Fi extender aimed at the gaming market.  I installed this and it completely transformed the Wi-Fi in the house, with good range, high speed and reliable connectivity. I have recommend this device to friends and neighbours in the village who have had similar issues with Wi-Fi on the Genexis routers and they have also reported dramatic improvements.

An update:

First - extended thanks for the empathy and suggestions here on the forum. It is one of the reasons the forum can be a real asset to Naim owners.

I am in the midst right now of about 2 hours of dropout free listening. rjstaines (Rod, IIRC?) mentioned the channel, so I dug out some stuff I had jotted down when I had an ISP melt-down last year (at one point literally had 3 AT&T trucks in front of my house.) So I downloaded a wifi analyzer (per NFG) onto my phone and looked at all the "competition" and then logged on to my router and changed to channel 11, as it showed less traffic. Problem "solved".

I say "solved" because it is apparent that this is likely a temporary respite from the situation - with all the cable and fiber wars going on in my neighborhood, I have been convinced here that other measures need to be taken, since someone can buy a new router or extender and start competing for my bandwidth. You think people would check around the neighborhood for Naim streamers and give a wide berth for them...what is wrong with people these days?

If I can get time, I will call Naim support and investigate other measures. Airport Express, etc. and hope to come up with a final solution.

And Winky and others are probably correct that it is best to connect via ethernet, and only use the wifi for control functions. My home layout is really adverse to such, but perhaps I can come up with some solution. My home is slab on grade, so there is no below floor option,  and I (thankfully) have almost no carpet, so I can't hide cable that way either.

DrMark posted:

An update:

First - extended thanks for the empathy and suggestions here on the forum. It is one of the reasons the forum can be a real asset to Naim owners.

I am in the midst right now of about 2 hours of dropout free listening. rjstaines (Rod, IIRC?) mentioned the channel, so I dug out some stuff I had jotted down when I had an ISP melt-down last year (at one point literally had 3 AT&T trucks in front of my house.) So I downloaded a wifi analyzer (per NFG) onto my phone and looked at all the "competition" and then logged on to my router and changed to channel 11, as it showed less traffic. Problem "solved".

I say "solved" because it is apparent that this is likely a temporary respite from the situation - with all the cable and fiber wars going on in my neighborhood, I have been convinced here that other measures need to be taken, since someone can buy a new router or extender and start competing for my bandwidth. You think people would check around the neighborhood for Naim streamers and give a wide berth for them...what is wrong with people these days?

If I can get time, I will call Naim support and investigate other measures. Airport Express, etc. and hope to come up with a final solution.

And Winky and others are probably correct that it is best to connect via ethernet, and only use the wifi for control functions. My home layout is really adverse to such, but perhaps I can come up with some solution. My home is slab on grade, so there is no below floor option,  and I (thankfully) have almost no carpet, so I can't hide cable that way either.

Well at least you know what is causing it.  Maybe you can move your router closer to your 272? You need ideally to have line of sight with no solid walls or plasterboard drywalls with aluminium foil backing (I don't know whether you have that in the US?)

Regarding Ethernet cabling, if you can't go under to get a cable in, the alternatives are round the outside (you can get exterior grade Ethernet cable that won't degrade in the sun and going over it, or around the edge on the inside. It will be a pain to do, but worth the effort.

Regarding Ethernet over power adapters, the technology is horrible to contemplate but the reason they make them for those special tough situations like yours. They don't cost much, so I agree with others that it is worth a try.

And regarding channel 11 on 2.4 GHz wifi, my ISP help desk told me a while back that almost all routers default to the lower channels and only go up to 11 if they have to. So you could be lucky and find you have fixed the problem, especially as much of the newer kit will be using 5GHz wifi.

best

David

Re Ch-11 on 2.4GHz,  a friend in the city had a 'crowd' problem & I changed her ISP hub smart (auto) channel selection to fixed.  Ch 1, 6 & 11 are the only channels that do not overlap with each other & looking at the area with my analyser it looked like all the hubs defaulted to only those three.  I set hers on CH-13 & she's been on it ever since without problems.    Annoyingly my own new hub is limited to 1,6 & 11,  my old one had all channel numbers selectable,  but as I live in a village edge area were I only 'see'  three neighbours at most, sometimes none,  at wireless hub level/location,  it's not a problem.    If you can select & fix a channel outside 1, 6 & 11 it might be even better.

Regarding David's suggestion of getting the isp's router closer, I replaced my 3m ADSL cable with a 10m cat5e style ADSL cable ( fewer twisted pairs than Ethernet). This was much easier to route to my lounge than Ethernet cable and it's colour made it less noticeable. 15m is about the maximum recommended length between master socket and router. Unlike house phone cable which can have speed reduction issues, this cable had none (I could have fibre but I get 24Mbps as I am within a mile of the exchange). 

I used a wireless range extender with Ethernet port for my wife's computer and the bedrooms which lost out in the move.

Phil

Mike-B posted:

Re Ch-11 on 2.4GHz,  a friend in the city had a 'crowd' problem & I changed her ISP hub smart (auto) channel selection to fixed.  Ch 1, 6 & 11 are the only channels that do not overlap with each other & looking at the area with my analyser it looked like all the hubs defaulted to only those three.  I set hers on CH-13 & she's been on it ever since without problems.    Annoyingly my own new hub is limited to 1,6 & 11,  my old one had all channel numbers selectable,  but as I live in a village edge area were I only 'see'  three neighbours at most, sometimes none,  at wireless hub level/location,  it's not a problem.    If you can select & fix a channel outside 1, 6 & 11 it might be even better.

The channel number is the centre of the three channels you take up, so ch 11 will use 10-12 and ch 13 will use 12 -14. In the US, it's illegal to use Ch 12,13 or 14 and so DrMark's router probably won't let him go there.  Even in the UK using Ch 13 is not recommended because you cause interference with and are interfered by Ch 11, but the wifi standard can manage coexistence with other wifi signals on the same three channels much better than it can manage interference that only partly spreads over it. That is why the use of Ch 1, 6 and 11 is recommended and why using any other centre channel isn't a good idea. I could provide links to places that explain this better than me, but Richard would probably remove them. But if you google it, there are many networking and other advice sites that cover this.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

.............    In the US, it's illegal to use Ch 12,13 or 14 and so DrMark's router probably won't let him go there. .................  

Good enough reason  !!!!     Thanks for feedback.  

Mike-B posted:

David Hendon posted:

.............    In the US, it's illegal to use Ch 12,13 or 14 and so DrMark's router probably won't let him go there. .................  

Good enough reason  !!!!     Thanks for feedback.  

I'm a radio spectrum engineer basically, so I'm a bit over-sensitised to these licensing issues!

best

David

Based on the analysis with the phone app, ch 13 was the one I wanted, but my router did not have it available...and thanks Dave for telling me why.

Slightly radical suggestion. Take the NAS into the 272 room and the router from the cupboard, not you AT&T one. Connect the three together with cable. Link you phone/tablet to this new wireless network. You won't have internet connection but for playing music you don't need it. No cost solution.

CJ

CJ1045 posted:

Take the   .............    router from the cupboard,

Reminds me of someone who had their 'ugly' router hidden in a cupboard,   they complained wireless around some parts of the the house was poor.  After some persuasion they did try it on top of the same cupboard & were surprised that not only did it fix the in house coverage,  they now had a signal in the nearby garden area.   Surprising what a chunk of wood can do.