I am so sick of streaming....

The problems people talk about with streaming are mostly network problems, not the streaming process.

Wifi is radio. As with any radio signal, propagation is affected by the physical environment e.g. walls and what they are made of, and the electromagnetic environment, e.g other competing transmissions, which can be from neighbouring properties, and not just other wifi networks, and the job of the wireless router and the connected gear is to manage to get a usable signal through. That is all in addition to coping load put on the network by different devices as must wired networks. Therefore whilst whilst wifi can and often does provide a good stable network, it is unsurprising that it can be fraught with greater problems. And if the cause of a problem is radio interference from some external source it can be nigh on impossible to identify or solve the cause, especially if intermittent.

Wired networks can also have problems, usually related to their complexity and setup, and usually easier to resolve. This is why wired is generally regarded as better - and having the store and renderer combined completely solves the problem except for online streaming or wanting to stream to other rooms.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

<<SNIP>>

So a question to Naim, Phil?, does Naim support 802.11v in the streamers, Muso and Qb ?

Hi SiS,

No - 802.11v isn't really an appropriate standard to support on the streamers as it's not really applicable to a device that stays stationary within a wireless network - it's more suited to devices that are "mobile" within a network ...

On the new Uniti platform we do support  MIMO 802.11AC which is more appropriate for what is a stationary device on a wireless LAN.

Best

Phil

Phil, not quite, I think you might be referring to 802.11r and 802.11k which are for roaming, and ideal for mobile clients.  

802.11v is about client  WLAN topology discovery / load balancing and power saving and is used for stationary as well as mobile devices. The topology discovery is particularly beneficial for assisted roams to help load balancing in dynamic network load environments ... so if a use starts streaming video on YouTube 802.11v can help a connected client offload to a more suitable but perhaps slightly weaker AP. So 802.11v would be great for streamers operating with certain overlapping APs to provide an enhanced and reliable wifi experience in lossless HD streams.. with dynamic (household) wifi loading.

You should not confuse with MIMO which is something quite different and is more about RF signal management for access   ... Mimo is fine for managing reach for multiple clients of different strengths but has minimal effect on SSID throughput under dynamic loading conditions with multiple access points.

May I suggest Naim  consider  for future driver firmware updates... it could just transform Naim streamer wifi functionality where the customer has set up an ESSID, i.e. Multiple access points sharing a subnet and the same SSID.... and it seems a shame to exclude with the resultant drop in real world usability..

Cheers

Hi there,

Sorry for stepping in late, but maybe I can help. If I read your original post correctly, your network is fine, and the SBT works fine, it's only the Naim 272 that has problems. In my mind that means it's the Naim that needs fixing, not the modem, router, etc... Two other things: I like using Roon to control my music playback, it's light years ahead of every other music app I've tried (including iTunes and Naim's own); my family likes streaming via Airplay. The 272 doesn't support either, so even if you get the streaming gremlins sorted, you'll be stuck with Naim's UI. What I did in my system, is shell out a colossal $35 and solve all of the above at one fell swoop.

1. Pick up a Raspberry Pi 3 on Amazon

2. Pick up the recommended cheap micro-USB power supply at the same time

3. Pick up a 8-16 Gb SD card from SanDisk at the same time

4. Follow the directions on the DietPi website (not allowed to provide a link, sorry), but if you google DietPi you'll find it. Once at their website, click "Getting Started" scroll down, and click "Getting Started for step-by-step.

5. Do Step 1

6. Do Step 2, including the optional WiFi part (you can turn it off later, but turn it on to begin with to make everything else easier)

7. Do Step 3

8. Do Step 4

9. Do Step 5 and install the Shairport and RoonBridge packages. Shairport will give you Airplay, Roon Bridge will give you Roon if you wish to try it out (free trial)

The Raspberry Pi can stay on WiFi, or you can hardwire it via ethernet. Works fine both ways and will give you bit-perfect USB input into your 272. If you prefer S/PDIF or BNC even, go to HiFiBerry and get the appropriate digi+ board.

I know, it sounds complicated, but it took me 30 minutes to set up the first time, and I've never used one of these before. Ever since, it's been flawless, high resolution, bit perfect streaming all day every day. Worst case, your out $50 (including Pi, power supply, and SD card). Don't get suckered into expensive power supplies and USB cables, they don't make a difference if your DAC is galvanically isolated and isochronous (I believe the 272 is both).

You'll feel empowered. Let me know if you have questions and I'll help if I can.

Best,

---Pedro

Simon

would (2) Ubiquiti Unifi AC Lite access points fit the bill for a mesh network?  

In my case one would be directly attached to my main switch, with the second attached to a smaller switch attached to the first. 

Thoughts?

It's not a mesh network, but two wired Ubiquiti Unifi AC lite APs should work well (it does for me) in providing a multi access point WLAN. Try and over lap the reach ranges with good signal strength where your streamer is.

But remember that unless you buy the  ac lites seperate you will need a switch that can power the lite through the eethernet cable PPOE probably spelled wrong.

Claus

Yes, the power over Ethernet connectors come with the AP AC lites when you buy the access points individually. I suspect unless you are network savvy that is how most will use them.

For those who are network savvy and wish to bespoke, the UAP AC lites are not 802.3af or 802.3at compliant so if powering by a regular PoE switch you need a Ubiquiti 802.3af converter in line on your Ethernet lead  anyway. The Ubiquiti own series of switches however support directly powering all their devices attached to the switches...in which case the power adapter supplied with the AP AC Lite becomes redundant... keep it in your box of useful 'stuff'

As I say this is irrelevant if you use the AP AC lite as it is supplied with its own Power over Ethernet adapter... simples. PoE is the way where you can to go to cut down clutter,mains wiring and the number of small SMPS you have 

perizoqui posted:

Sorry for stepping in late, but maybe I can help. If I read your original post correctly, your network is fine, and the SBT works fine, it's only the Naim 272 that has problems. In my mind that means it's the Naim that needs fixing, not the modem, router, etc...

I think you missed the point which is that Naim NAC-N 272 (along with all Naim units) use standard networking protocols.  The problem is that not all routers (especially the built to a cost ones supplied by ISPs) support things properly.

As commented above, all ISPs are interested in is ensuring your Internet browsing and email works.

Eloise posted:

I think you missed the point which is that Naim NAC-N 272 (along with all Naim units) use standard networking protocols.  The problem is that not all routers (especially the built to a cost ones supplied by ISPs) support things properly.

Sorry if I did. I thought the point was that his other hardware worked, while the NAC N-272 didn't. Doesn't seem he's got internet problems in his house, AT&T modem/routers aren't the best in the world, but they do work. Further, the 272 lacks some of the streaming capabilities possible with the new Uniti range (e.g. airplay). So I suggested a cheap and excellent way to solve both problems at a stroke. But it's just a suggestion based on my experience. He doesn't have to follow it 

perizoqui posted:

Eloise posted:

I think you missed the point which is that Naim NAC-N 272 (along with all Naim units) use standard networking protocols.  The problem is that not all routers (especially the built to a cost ones supplied by ISPs) support things properly.

Sorry if I did. I thought the point was that his other hardware worked, while the NAC N-272 didn't. Doesn't seem he's got internet problems in his house, AT&T modem/routers aren't the best in the world, but they do work. Further, the 272 lacks some of the streaming capabilities possible with the new Uniti range (e.g. airplay). So I suggested a cheap and excellent way to solve both problems at a stroke. But it's just a suggestion based on my experience. He doesn't have to follow it 

the problem at the beginning of this topic was simple :  the op runs his 272  wirelessly. It is not the best way to stream with high end devices.  It is not 272 or ndx problems or limitations. With lan cables, the ndx is a very good product , no need raspberry or microrendu or anything else: just good lans.

French Rooster posted:

the problem at the beginning of this topic was simple :  the op runs his 272  wirelessly. It is not the best way to stream with high end devices.  It is not 272 or ndx problems or limitations. With lan cables, the ndx is a very good product , no need raspberry or microrendu or anything else: just good lans.

The 272 is advertised as a wireless device. Just like the SBT (which the OP says works fine), the Apple TV, and the Raspberry Pi (to name only a few). If they work, but the 272 doesn't, then the wireless implementation on the 272 is not as robust as it should be. Using cables would solve that problem, but create another (routing cables through walls/ceilings/both). That's why folks buy wireless devices, so they won't need to route cables.

So the problem is simple, as is the solution you propose. The solution I propose is different, but also simple. The OP will have to decide if he wants to run cables, or not. The solution I proposed isn't bad. It's not a non-solution. It's not missing the point. It's just a different solution. One that allows the OP to stream wirelessly as he originally intended. I've tried both solutions, yours and mine, and I like mine better. Because it adds airplay and Roon to the mix. And also because wireless is convenient.

Personally, if I'd bought a $5,995 wireless streamer that didn't stream wirelessly, I'd be disappointed. If folks told me the solution was to not stream wirelessly, I'd find that less than helpful. If I felt like it came from an intolerance to hearing anything even remotely critical of the manufacturer, I'd be irritated. Wireless streamers should stream wirelessly. If a SBT can do it, a $5,995 Naim NAC N-272 should be able to do it.

perizoqui posted:

Personally, if I'd bought a $5,995 wireless streamer that didn't stream wirelessly, I'd be disappointed. If folks told me the solution was to not stream wirelessly, I'd find that less than helpful. If I felt like it came from an intolerance to hearing anything even remotely critical of the manufacturer, I'd be irritated. Wireless streamers should stream wirelessly. If a SBT can do it, a $5,995 Naim NAC N-272 should be able to do it.

Ignore the SBT ... thats a device which uses completely different (non-standard) protocols.  And google and you will find that wireless to that is less than perfect too.

Naim don't actually sell it as a "wireless" streamer (look at the web page - there is zero mention of wireless that I could find).  Wireless is there as a convenience feature and is recommended only for <16/48 rate files and internet radio, etc.  Wireless is also very dependent on the environment - other devices on the network, other networks in the area, etc.

No wireless streamer is perfect ... Squeezebox Touch had their troubles.  I actually had LESS trouble with my UnitiQute on WiFi than I did when I used a Marantz M-CR510 or a Squeezebox Duet on wireless.  What does that tell you?  Nothing except that wireless is less than perfect for audio and that over time (none of those devices were used side by side) wireless conditions change in a house and as I replaced routers and WAPs things improved and some things degraded.

Eloise posted:

No wireless streamer is perfect ... 

You mean to say that no wireless streamer that you have tried is perfect. My Raspberry Pi has been streaming all week between Redbook and 24/192 from Roon to Airplay and back again without a single dropout or a single reboot. Not bad for $35. All the credit to the open source community, Dan Askme at DietPi in particular. 

I'm just saying, 30 minutes and perfect wireless streaming. What's not to like? Plus Roon. Plus Airplay. Plus never again wondering when Naim is going to update the app. You can still do Naim DACs, amplifiers, and so on!

This is actually not a slight on Naim. It's unreasonable to expect a small company with many competing demands on their time to figure out network protocols and streaming as well as or as fast as the vast open-source community. There's no magic in transferring data, better to use what others have developed than to come up with your own home-grown proprietary solution. But that's a personal decision.

Seriously though, if you've never experienced reliable high resolution wireless streaming, try the $35 open-source solution. I'm here to help if you get stuck.

Best wishes.

---Pedro

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

PoE is the way where you can to go to cut down clutter,mains wiring and the number of small SMPS you have 

 

As well as less clutter, and fewer SMPS, a POE switch connected to a UPS can keep your wireless access points, phones and cameras running if there is a power cut. Assuming the router is also connected to a UPS, the internet connection will also function.

perizoqui posted:

Eloise posted:

No wireless streamer is perfect ... 

You mean to say that no wireless streamer that you have tried is perfect. My Raspberry Pi has been streaming all week between Redbook and 24/192 from Roon to Airplay and back again without a single dropout or a single reboot. Not bad for $35. All the credit to the open source community, Dan Askme at DietPi in particular. 

I'm just saying, 30 minutes and perfect wireless streaming. What's not to like? Plus Roon. Plus Airplay. Plus never again wondering when Naim is going to update the app. You can still do Naim DACs, amplifiers, and so on!

This is actually not a slight on Naim. It's unreasonable to expect a small company with many competing demands on their time to figure out network protocols and streaming as well as or as fast as the vast open-source community. There's no magic in transferring data, better to use what others have developed than to come up with your own home-grown proprietary solution. But that's a personal decision.

Seriously though, if you've never experienced reliable high resolution wireless streaming, try the $35 open-source solution. I'm here to help if you get stuck.

Best wishes.

---Pedro

This is neither for nor against your suggestion, but an observation on wireless streaming: you could take precisely the same setup as you have, and transport it to somewhere else where the wifi signal is compromised by other factors external to the units that are communicating, and it could be that then it would not work perfectly. That is the problem with wireless, that is avoided by wired networks (of course with the different potential issues they can have)

Innocent Bystander posted:

This is neither for nor against your suggestion, but an observation on wireless streaming: you could take precisely the same setup as you have, and transport it to somewhere else where the wifi signal is compromised by other factors external to the units that are communicating, and it could be that then it would not work perfectly. That is the problem with wireless, that is avoided by wired networks (of course with the different potential issues they can have)

Certainly, it's possible to break any wireless solution. Tethered will always be more robust. But some wireless devices have better designs than others. Better antennas, communication protocols, implementations, etc... Some are pretty darned robust. Especially this day and age for something really low bandwidth (like high-res audio). If the OP wants wireless, I recommend a wireless solution.

perizoqui posted:

Eloise posted:

No wireless streamer is perfect ... 

You mean to say that no wireless streamer that you have tried is perfect. My Raspberry Pi has been streaming all week between Redbook and 24/192 from Roon to Airplay and back again without a single dropout or a single reboot. Not bad for $35. All the credit to the open source community, Dan Askme at DietPi in particular. 

I'm just saying, 30 minutes and perfect wireless streaming. What's not to like? Plus Roon. Plus Airplay. Plus never again wondering when Naim is going to update the app. You can still do Naim DACs, amplifiers, and so on!

This is actually not a slight on Naim. It's unreasonable to expect a small company with many competing demands on their time to figure out network protocols and streaming as well as or as fast as the vast open-source community. There's no magic in transferring data, better to use what others have developed than to come up with your own home-grown proprietary solution. But that's a personal decision.

Seriously though, if you've never experienced reliable high resolution wireless streaming, try the $35 open-source solution. I'm here to help if you get stuck.

Best wishes.

---Pedro

I agree with everything you've said so far. Unfortunately some people prefer to spend large amounts of money on products that don't deliver while others try to defend them no matter what. Call it lack of objectivity, denial, fanboyism, whatever... I prefer to keep an open mind.

I'm in the process of selling my Naim gear. One reason is that on the same home network Sonos is 100% reliable for streaming wirelessly from the NAS and 99% reliable for Radio. Naim is closer to 95% for both over ethernet, its not good enough. 

I'm convinced that the Naim app is the main problem, I'm also convinced that the Sonos mesh network contributes to reliability. If I wasn't able to make the comparison I might be happier with Naim's excuses and the idea that it my and my ISP's responsibility to fix it. As is is I know that it doesn't have to be difficult so long as you invest in software development. 

I'll probably come back but i'll take a lot of convincing before I let Naim provide a streaming source

JulianL posted:

I'm in the process of selling my Naim gear. One reason is that on the same home network Sonos is 100% reliable for streaming wirelessly from the NAS and 99% reliable for Radio. Naim is closer to 95% for both over ethernet, its not good enough. 

I'm convinced that the Naim app is the main problem, I'm also convinced that the Sonos mesh network contributes to reliability. If I wasn't able to make the comparison I might be happier with Naim's excuses and the idea that it my and my ISP's responsibility to fix it. As is is I know that it doesn't have to be difficult so long as you invest in software development. 

I'll probably come back but i'll take a lot of convincing before I let Naim provide a streaming source

 

Don't sell your Naim gear! Keep it, add a $35 Raspberry Pi, and get the best of all worlds!! Last I checked Sonos couldn't do high res (better than CD) playback, nor serve as a Roon endpoint. And it's 10x the price of a Raspberry. Just sayin...

perizoqui posted:

JulianL posted:

I'm in the process of selling my Naim gear. One reason is that on the same home network Sonos is 100% reliable for streaming wirelessly from the NAS and 99% reliable for Radio. Naim is closer to 95% for both over ethernet, its not good enough. 

I'm convinced that the Naim app is the main problem, I'm also convinced that the Sonos mesh network contributes to reliability. If I wasn't able to make the comparison I might be happier with Naim's excuses and the idea that it my and my ISP's responsibility to fix it. As is is I know that it doesn't have to be difficult so long as you invest in software development. 

I'll probably come back but i'll take a lot of convincing before I let Naim provide a streaming source

 

Don't sell your Naim gear! Keep it, add a $35 Raspberry Pi, and get the best of all worlds!! Last I checked Sonos couldn't do high res (better than CD) playback, nor serve as a Roon endpoint. And it's 10x the price of a Raspberry. Just sayin...

I have a streaming preamp, I bought it for simplicity. It's lack of reliability has meant that it hasn't been the family friendly consumer device i hoped it would. The last straw came when the Naim app in the wife's iPad couldn't find it, but the Spotify app on my iPhone could. She was 3 yards away from it; i was in northern Romania. Popular demand has led it been replaced by a Sonos sub and sound bar in our front room. 

One of my frustrations it that the streaming preamp's predecessor was NAC 32.5 fed by giftware Volumio Software on a Raspberry Pi. I needed a bit of configuration but after that it was rock solid. The same hardware continued to serve as  Minim Server for radio streaming when Naim, and Sonos to be fair, couldn't get their heads around the new  BBC streaming format.

JulianL posted:

One of my frustrations it that the streaming preamp's predecessor was NAC 32.5 fed by giftware Volumio Software on a Raspberry Pi. I needed a bit of configuration but after that it was rock solid. The same hardware continued to serve as  Minim Server for radio streaming when Naim, and Sonos to be fair, couldn't get their heads around the new  BBC streaming format.

Volumio is nice too. DietPi (my recommendation above) is a similar beast, but with a much lower process count for a cleaner run. Less system noise and so on. Doubt it sounds better than Volumio, or worse, but it was fun to know it had a completely streamlined OS just for music streaming.

Hi Pedro, a valid idea but you're missing some costs there: Roon is not free -  a perpetual license costs several hundred. Also, the 272 doesn't have a USB audio input at all - adding a really good asynch USB to S/PDIF converter will cost another several hundred or more.

(the 272 USB on front panel is only for memory sticks)

Felix

I have had my woes with wifi as well. What worked for me was to apply (almost) the same solution as Troy Hunt describes in his blog post "how I finally fixed my dodgy wifi". Troy is well regarded in IT and knows his stuff, simply google for that name and title.

Since moving into Ubiquiti I have had no issues whatsoever. It pretty much boils down to out powering your neighbours with an exceptionally strong wifi signal. I have two access points in my living room which makes for full strength coverage everywhere in the house and garden. 

JulianL posted:

I'm in the process of selling my Naim gear. One reason is that on the same home network Sonos is 100% reliable for streaming wirelessly from the NAS and 99% reliable for Radio. Naim is closer to 95% for both over ethernet, its not good enough. 

I'm convinced that the Naim app is the main problem, I'm also convinced that the Sonos mesh network contributes to reliability. If I wasn't able to make the comparison I might be happier with Naim's excuses and the idea that it my and my ISP's responsibility to fix it. As is is I know that it doesn't have to be difficult so long as you invest in software development. 

I'll probably come back but i'll take a lot of convincing before I let Naim provide a streaming source

 

If your Naim streamer is only 95% reliable on Ethernet I'd say there is indeed a problem with your network.  You can say it's not your responsibility to ensure a reliable network , but the experience of those of us with reliable networks and positive experiences with Naim streamers suggests otherwise. 

Sonos has prioritized ease of use and reliable wifi steaming over sound quality.  Naim prioritizes sound quality.  If you would rather live with lower sound quality so that you don't have to sort out your network, I don't understand, but you should do what works best for you.